GOAT: Jordan or James?

[Roy H.]

Where's the evidence that steroids were "running rampant" in the NBA in the 80s?

In baseball, it didn't start until the late 80s, in one particular clubhouse:  Oakland, with Canseco and McGwire.  McGwire didn't even arrive until 1987.

It seems like a pretty big logical leap that because a couple of MLB players were juicing in the late 80s that it was suddenly rampant.  The "PED" of choice in the 80s in baseball was amphetamines.  Then, to take that logical leap farther and apply it to Jordan is particularly odd.  The juicers in the late 80s in MLB were the guys who were absolutely giant.

[Moranis]

Where's the evidence that steroids were "running rampant" in the NBA in the 80s?

In baseball, it didn't start until the late 80s, in one particular clubhouse:  Oakland, with Canseco and McGwire.  McGwire didn't even arrive until 1987.

It seems like a pretty big logical leap that because a couple of MLB players were juicing in the late 80s that it was suddenly rampant.  The "PED" of choice in the 80s in baseball was amphetamines.  Then, to take that logical leap farther and apply it to Jordan is particularly odd.  The juicers in the late 80s in MLB were the guys who were absolutely giant.

And the Jordan summer of bulk was 1989. 

[Roy H.]

Where's the evidence that steroids were "running rampant" in the NBA in the 80s?

In baseball, it didn't start until the late 80s, in one particular clubhouse:  Oakland, with Canseco and McGwire.  McGwire didn't even arrive until 1987.

It seems like a pretty big logical leap that because a couple of MLB players were juicing in the late 80s that it was suddenly rampant.  The "PED" of choice in the 80s in baseball was amphetamines.  Then, to take that logical leap farther and apply it to Jordan is particularly odd.  The juicers in the late 80s in MLB were the guys who were absolutely giant.

And the Jordan summer of bulk was 1989.

Like I said, it's a giant logical leap.  A small handful of guys are juicing in one clubhouse in MLB.  Therefore, Jordan was obviously juicing in a different sport halfway across the country with no trainers or close connections in common.

But, everybody in the thread knows you're trolling here:

of course Jordan was on roids.

... followed up a couple pages later by:

I have no idea if Jordan used

He absolutely was a steroid user, unless he wasn't, right?

[Moranis]

Where's the evidence that steroids were "running rampant" in the NBA in the 80s?

In baseball, it didn't start until the late 80s, in one particular clubhouse:  Oakland, with Canseco and McGwire.  McGwire didn't even arrive until 1987.

It seems like a pretty big logical leap that because a couple of MLB players were juicing in the late 80s that it was suddenly rampant.  The "PED" of choice in the 80s in baseball was amphetamines.  Then, to take that logical leap farther and apply it to Jordan is particularly odd.  The juicers in the late 80s in MLB were the guys who were absolutely giant.

And the Jordan summer of bulk was 1989.

Like I said, it's a giant logical leap.  A small handful of guys are juicing in one clubhouse in MLB.  Therefore, Jordan was obviously juicing in a different sport halfway across the country with no trainers or close connections in common.

But, everybody in the thread knows you're trolling here:

of course Jordan was on roids.

... followed up a couple pages later by:

I have no idea if Jordan used

He absolutely was a steroid user, unless he wasn't, right?

You took my first post out of context, you see it concluded with this

Jordan absolutely used roids, well at least by how we view players using today without any real evidence to support that.

The context of the post was that we treat the players today differently then we do the players of old because of the internet, the change in media, etc.  People just assume guys like Lebron are on PED's without a single shred of evidence, yet ignore the same factors from guys like Jordan.  That was the point I was making. 

I think most players have used some sort of PED at some point in their career.  I mean why wouldn't they.  Unless they acknowledge it or fail a test, no one can know for sure, but I'd be pretty darn surprised if Jordan didn't use them, just as I would with Lebron or basically anyone else.

[Roy H.]

Where's the evidence that steroids were "running rampant" in the NBA in the 80s?

In baseball, it didn't start until the late 80s, in one particular clubhouse:  Oakland, with Canseco and McGwire.  McGwire didn't even arrive until 1987.

It seems like a pretty big logical leap that because a couple of MLB players were juicing in the late 80s that it was suddenly rampant.  The "PED" of choice in the 80s in baseball was amphetamines.  Then, to take that logical leap farther and apply it to Jordan is particularly odd.  The juicers in the late 80s in MLB were the guys who were absolutely giant.

And the Jordan summer of bulk was 1989.

Like I said, it's a giant logical leap.  A small handful of guys are juicing in one clubhouse in MLB.  Therefore, Jordan was obviously juicing in a different sport halfway across the country with no trainers or close connections in common.

But, everybody in the thread knows you're trolling here:

of course Jordan was on roids.

... followed up a couple pages later by:

I have no idea if Jordan used

He absolutely was a steroid user, unless he wasn't, right?

You took my first post out of context, you see it concluded with this

Jordan absolutely used roids, well at least by how we view players using today without any real evidence to support that.

The context of the post was that we treat the players today differently then we do the players of old because of the internet, the change in media, etc.  People just assume guys like Lebron are on PED's without a single shred of evidence, yet ignore the same factors from guys like Jordan.  That was the point I was making. 

I think most players have used some sort of PED at some point in their career.  I mean why wouldn't they.  Unless they acknowledge it or fail a test, no one can know for sure, but I'd be pretty darn surprised if Jordan didn't use them, just as I would with Lebron or basically anyone else.

The reason that players in the 1980s don't get as much scrutiny as players in the 1990s through present is because steroids weren't really a thing in most professional sports back then.  There are basically no basketball players back then that show signs of anabolic steroid use, which are the only drugs really on the market.

[Moranis]

Why do you keep shifting this to the 80's, I've pretty clearly always said late 80's and early 90's and attributed Jordan to the summer of 1989.  That absolutely fits in the time when steroids were all the rage (well except in the NFL when the 70's and early 80's was their steroid era - they started testing informationally in 1987 and started suspending people in 1989). 

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Why did this devolve into a drug conversation? There are so many other talking points besides one’s willingness to say that some took drugs, of course without actually knowing anything.

They are different players playing at different times. Lebron’s stamina should be commended, and MJ’s peak performances are hard to beat. Both great players, and it’s too hard to compare guys from different eras. It’s all based on opinion… the question should be who do you like more.

I liked peak MJ over peak Lebron, though Lebron’s peak has been much longer. I also don’t think Lebron’s career is over, while I’m fairly certain MJ isn’t coming back.

[Roy H.]

Why did this devolve into a drug conversation? There are so many other talking points besides one’s willingness to say that some took drugs, of course without actually knowing anything.

They are different players playing at different times. Lebron’s stamina should be commended, and MJ’s peak performances are hard to beat. Both great players, and it’s too hard to compare guys from different eras. It’s all based on opinion… the question should be who do you like more.

I liked peak MJ over peak Lebron, though Lebron’s peak has been much longer. I also don’t think Lebron’s career is over, while I’m fairly certain MJ isn’t coming back.

How do you rate MJ's time off?  MJ had a realistic shot at eight straight, although we'll obviously never know.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

[Moranis]

Why did this devolve into a drug conversation? There are so many other talking points besides one’s willingness to say that some took drugs, of course without actually knowing anything.

They are different players playing at different times. Lebron’s stamina should be commended, and MJ’s peak performances are hard to beat. Both great players, and it’s too hard to compare guys from different eras. It’s all based on opinion… the question should be who do you like more.

I liked peak MJ over peak Lebron, though Lebron’s peak has been much longer. I also don’t think Lebron’s career is over, while I’m fairly certain MJ isn’t coming back.

How do you rate MJ's time off?  MJ had a realistic shot at eight straight, although we'll obviously never know.

I actually think there is a strong argument he would have had less than 6 had he not stepped away. Him stepping away allowed a complete overhaul of the team, which I don't think happens if he was still playing.  Jordan and Pippen were the only two players on both the 3rd and 4th Bulls titles.  I mean think about that, in the span of 2 years, they completely gutted and rebuilt the team.  I just don't think that happens with Jordan still on the team for those 2 seasons (and I know he came back in the 2nd season but it was after the time when moves could be made).  The early Bulls team also struggled mightily with Hakeem.  In the first 3-peat seasons, the Bulls were 1-5 against the Rockets.  In the 2nd, the Bulls were 5-1.  In other words, they needed to retool the roster to handle Hakeem. Given, they would have played the Rockets between the two, it would have depended a great deal on how many roster changes they made on whether or not they could have beaten the Rockets, and if they didn't make all of those changes, I don't know that they would have been able to 3-peat the 2nd time either.  Jordan quitting on the Bulls, created the opportunity for the Bulls to retool.  Without Jordan walking away, I'm not sure how extensive that retool was and whether or not that would have created the opportunity.  Like does Horace Grant leave after the 94 season if Jordan was still on the team.  And if Grant stays, does that mean no Rodman, how does that alter other moves. 

[celticsclay]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

[celticsclay]

Why did this devolve into a drug conversation? There are so many other talking points besides one’s willingness to say that some took drugs, of course without actually knowing anything.

They are different players playing at different times. Lebron’s stamina should be commended, and MJ’s peak performances are hard to beat. Both great players, and it’s too hard to compare guys from different eras. It’s all based on opinion… the question should be who do you like more.

I liked peak MJ over peak Lebron, though Lebron’s peak has been much longer. I also don’t think Lebron’s career is over, while I’m fairly certain MJ isn’t coming back.

How do you rate MJ's time off?  MJ had a realistic shot at eight straight, although we'll obviously never know.

I actually think there is a strong argument he would have had less than 6 had he not stepped away. Him stepping away allowed a complete overhaul of the team, which I don't think happens if he was still playing.  Jordan and Pippen were the only two players on both the 3rd and 4th Bulls titles.  I mean think about that, in the span of 2 years, they completely gutted and rebuilt the team.  I just don't think that happens with Jordan still on the team for those 2 seasons (and I know he came back in the 2nd season but it was after the time when moves could be made).  The early Bulls team also struggled mightily with Hakeem.  In the first 3-peat seasons, the Bulls were 1-5 against the Rockets.  In the 2nd, the Bulls were 5-1.  In other words, they needed to retool the roster to handle Hakeem. Given, they would have played the Rockets between the two, it would have depended a great deal on how many roster changes they made on whether or not they could have beaten the Rockets, and if they didn't make all of those changes, I don't know that they would have been able to 3-peat the 2nd time either.  Jordan quitting on the Bulls, created the opportunity for the Bulls to retool.  Without Jordan walking away, I'm not sure how extensive that retool was and whether or not that would have created the opportunity.  Like does Horace Grant leave after the 94 season if Jordan was still on the team.  And if Grant stays, does that mean no Rodman, how does that alter other moves.

Don't you think it would make for a better discussion of Lebron versus James if you focused on explaining why you think Lebron is the greatest rather than focusing on increasingly bizarre and convoluted attempts to take Jordan down a peg (he once put on 15 pounds of muscle in 4 months, must have done steroids, in a sliding doors scenario he has a different teammate and he wins less titles). There are a lot of really strong arguments you can make for Lebron especially around his longevity and his title over the warriors. Instead if feels like we are just a few posts away from you saying Jordan smelled bad also.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

[Moranis]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

Jordan to this day is a heavy gambler, but that has absolutely nothing to do with basketball so it has nothing to do with this discussion.  PED's does have an effect on how a person's career plays out, so it does weigh in to the discussion at least some what.

I personally don't care if basketball players use steroids.  It doesn't affect my viewing at all (combat sports are different, there injury risk to yourself and others is much greater). 

[Roy H.]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

There's no doubt that MJ was a big gambler. 

I think the "MJ was unofficially suspended for gambling" is the conspiracy part.  Both Stern and MJ have denied it several times, but maybe that means nothing.  Moreso, I think the player's union and at least one owner would have make a stink about it if it were true.