Author Topic: Who do we keep off the VSL team?  (Read 17270 times)

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Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #75 on: July 20, 2022, 10:00:17 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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12.  Khem Birch
13. David Nwaba
14.  Brodric Thomas
15.  Kornet

2-way  Davison
2-way  Kabengele


What if they used the remaining TPE's for Khem Birch and David Nwaba?   Birch makes 6.67 and Nwaba 5. 

I know that puts things much deeper into the luxury tax. Second question would be could they be traded at the deadline in a salary dump? Then replaced with vet minimum contracts (any veteran that may be cut after the deadline) in order to save money against the tax?

I'm a little confused.  Why trade for them now, only to trade them later and sign vet minimum players?

Why not just sign the minimum players now, and keep the existing TPEs?

I guess if we were getting seconds for them and we thought we could trade them at the deadline for those same or lesser seconds, it might make  sense, because then we've gotten four months of backup production at effectively no cost, and presumably we'd get new trade exceptions at the deadline.  Aside from that unlikely scenario, it is very confusing.

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #76 on: July 20, 2022, 10:01:45 AM »

Offline jay

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Then when a current player (someone on an expiring deal) is salary dumped in Jan/Feb pick them up for the veteran minimum. Like they did with Greg Monroe or Jabari Parker in the past.

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #77 on: July 20, 2022, 10:04:23 AM »

Offline jay

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I guess if we were getting seconds for them and we thought we could trade them at the deadline for those same or lesser seconds, it might make  sense, because then we've gotten four months of backup production at effectively no cost, and presumably we'd get new trade exceptions at the deadline.  Aside from that unlikely scenario, it is very confusing.

Right, so those guys aren't worth paying 11.67 million this year with the tax implications but would they be worth it if it costs basically nothing. There just doesnt seem to be any decent free agents left at the moment but someone will get cut in Jan/Feb and will be looking to jump on board as a ring chaser.

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #78 on: July 20, 2022, 10:07:10 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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12.  Khem Birch
13. David Nwaba
14.  Brodric Thomas
15.  Kornet

2-way  Davison
2-way  Kabengele


What if they used the remaining TPE's for Khem Birch and David Nwaba?   Birch makes 6.67 and Nwaba 5. 

I know that puts things much deeper into the luxury tax. Second question would be could they be traded at the deadline in a salary dump? Then replaced with vet minimum contracts (any veteran that may be cut after the deadline) in order to save money against the tax?

I'm a little confused.  Why trade for them now, only to trade them later and sign vet minimum players?

Why not just sign the minimum players now, and keep the existing TPEs?

I agree with the question by Roy.  You could do this and dodge the tax but it is not clear why you would do this.  I guess since Birch and Nwaba would be purely insurance, and if we get to the deadline and everyone holds up, you could determine you don't need one or both.  Or maybe you decide to keep these two but trade Pritchard.

As to the players, I recall watching Birch and liking what I saw.  I am not sure the team will spend that much on an insurance big but it is not an outrageous contract so maybe.  Toronto would have to be looking to cut him though.  Toronto is showing 16 on the roster per Spotrac but the last couple are not fully guaranteed.  They are hard capped I believe but have some space still to work with.

As to Nwaba, I don't recall his game as clearly but at 29 years old and a career 32% 3pt shooter, not sure he is what we need. 

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #79 on: July 20, 2022, 10:13:20 AM »

Offline liam

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I think as it stands, we have 3 regular roster spots open plus Kornet on a very lightly guaranteed contract.  Others have pointed this out that Kornet isn't really on the roster.  I think they can cut him and only pay $100,000 or something like that.  So if someone beats out Kornet, there will be no hesitation to open that roster spot back up to add the player.  Based on this, I call it 4 roster spots and 1 2-way to be filled.

My feeling (maybe my hope) is that Kornet is just insurance for the insurance big.  For example is we were to sign Whiteside, I believe Kornet would very likely be cut. Definitely agree. If they do not sign a vet big, Kornet probably hangs on.  My prediction (again, maybe hope) is as follows:

12.  Whiteside Please no, I intensely dislike Whiteside's game and attitude.  That said, replace his name with Nerlens or Dwight and your point is still valid.
13.  Vet Wing (not sure who but I hope they can find someone to fit this role that is better than Hauser or Justin Jackson)
14.  Brodric Thomas or Justin Jackson or Matt Ryan (I prefer Thomas) See this is where I struggle, I like all 3.  Seems like Thomas has the inside track having been with the team all last year.  However, you can't ignore Ryan's shooting.
15.  Kabengele or Kornet

2-way  Davison
2-way  Kabengele or some other promising PF/C

The key is to sign the vet big and the vet wing.  To me, the rest doesn't matter nearly as much but I am fine filling up the final spots with "prospects".  For example, it makes no difference to me whether it is Kornet on the roster and Kabengele as a 2-way or Kabengele on the roster and some other prospect on the 2-way.
Good post, TP for the summary.  Now that Kab is signed I made a few edits and comments above.

I think you may have mixed up the strike through on Kornet as he still seems to have the 15th spot.  If it is true that Brodric Thomas was offered a 2-way, that indicates to me that the Celtics prefer him to Matt Ryan.  Justin Jackson may not be eligible for a 2-way.  The only reason that Thomas would decline a 2-way is if he thinks he can get a full roster spot.

12.  Whiteside
13.  Vet Wing (not sure who but I hope they can find someone to fit this role that is better than Hauser or Justin Jackson)
14.  Brodric Thomas or Justin Jackson or Matt Ryan (Brodric Thomas may have been offered a 2-way and declined)
15.  Kornet (for now)

2-way  Davison
2-way  Kabengele

2-ways can be elevated to full roster spots during the season.  So if they wanted Kabengele on the playoff roster, just cut someone (probably Kornet) and elevate Kabengele's contract to regular roster.

It seems like the Celtics are working from 1-11 but then flipping and working from the bottom up to 12.  Kornet could be considered 14 or 15 but it seems they are holding spots 12 and 13 to be sure they don't miss out on any useful vets that may become available.
Actually, I didn't. Even though technically Kornet is still on the roster, I was following your lead that he is very likely to be cut.  I crossed him off, but I think you changed the cross-out back to Kabengele.
Why would Kornet be likely to be cut? They just resigned him.

Cause he sucks and has no upside at 27. He’s good at being tall. Believe his contract is not guaranteed or only a small amount is. Would rather take a flier on Travion Williams.

Travion is so slow he makes Kornet look like Garnett.
This is just patently false

He's Kanter quick...
 ;D
As is Kornet
Not that it's much of a brag but Kornet is way faster than either of those guys and he's 7'2".

He’s really not, though.  If he was as good of an athlete at 7’2” as you are stating, he’d actually play in NBA games vs spending the whole year in Maine. He is in his late 20’s and has no upside at this point. Just a waste of a roster spot.

Saying Kornet is a better athlete than Trevion Williams and Kanter isn't much of a leap. Kanter is totally ground bound with no vertical and Trevion is slow and ground bound.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 10:58:55 AM by liam »

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #80 on: July 20, 2022, 10:14:24 AM »

Offline jay

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It could be any player. I was just looking for guys on smaller contracts that fit under current TPE's that may be expendable. Both guys seem to play decent defense and are pretty athletic. Both have a few years experience but not too old yet. Have been rotation players but may not be this year.

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #81 on: July 20, 2022, 10:20:41 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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I guess if we were getting seconds for them and we thought we could trade them at the deadline for those same or lesser seconds, it might make  sense, because then we've gotten four months of backup production at effectively no cost, and presumably we'd get new trade exceptions at the deadline.  Aside from that unlikely scenario, it is very confusing.

Right, so those guys aren't worth paying 11.67 million this year with the tax implications but would they be worth it if it costs basically nothing. There just doesnt seem to be any decent free agents left at the moment but someone will get cut in Jan/Feb and will be looking to jump on board as a ring chaser.

But the problem is the Raptors aren’t giving up a pick to move Birch.  They’re under the tax and will just keep him.  Nor are the Rockets giving up anything to move Nwaba.

In theory your idea made a small amount of sense, but only under specific circumstances that aren’t actually present in reality.  You have to find a player who’s team is willing to give up a pick now to move him, and at the same time the Celtics have to be very confident that moving him in February will cost the same or less as it does now.  Otherwise they’re the ones holding onto the hot potato at the trade deadline.

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2022, 10:22:18 AM »

Offline jay

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I wouldn't expect them to give up anything. I'm asking would they trade them away for a 2nd round pick just to get rid of them?

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #83 on: July 20, 2022, 10:24:30 AM »

Offline jay

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And it may not be realistic - thats why im asking you guys. I don't know the answer. Just wondering if there is a creative way to get a couple of vets for the bench without spending crazy money.

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2022, 10:28:19 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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And it may not be realistic - thats why im asking you guys. I don't know the answer. Just wondering if there is a creative way to get a couple of vets for the bench without spending crazy money.

There isn’t really, unless something kicks out of a Durant or Mitchell trade, in that there’s some player in the $5-7 million range who’s been included for salary reasons.  Otherwise you wait until the deadline for those type of players.

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #85 on: July 20, 2022, 10:29:50 AM »

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I guess if we were getting seconds for them and we thought we could trade them at the deadline for those same or lesser seconds, it might make  sense, because then we've gotten four months of backup production at effectively no cost, and presumably we'd get new trade exceptions at the deadline.  Aside from that unlikely scenario, it is very confusing.

Right, so those guys aren't worth paying 11.67 million this year with the tax implications but would they be worth it if it costs basically nothing. There just doesnt seem to be any decent free agents left at the moment but someone will get cut in Jan/Feb and will be looking to jump on board as a ring chaser.

The current free agent market isn't great, but I think it's likely much better than what we'll see in buyout season.  It varies from year to year, but the buyout market didn't really materialize last season.  There were a few guys -- Dragic, Carter, Bembry -- but overall there wasn't much to choose from.  Compare that to the current crop of free agents:  Whiteside, Cousins, Zeller, Howard, Aldridge, Bledsoe, Schroder, Carmelo, Harrell (unlikely to take the minimum, but I guess we don't know that for sure), Griffin, Jackson, Paschall, Lamb, Kemba.  Those guys aren't great, but they may be better than what's available for buyouts.

The one potential buyout guy I'm interested in is Derrick Favors.  Maybe San Antonio buys out Josh Richardson at some point.  I'm not seeing a lot of expiring guys on non-contenders right now, but time will tell.  To the extent that there may be others, I'm fine carrying an open roster spot or a non-guaranteed guy like Kornet.


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Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2022, 10:31:48 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I guess if we were getting seconds for them and we thought we could trade them at the deadline for those same or lesser seconds, it might make  sense, because then we've gotten four months of backup production at effectively no cost, and presumably we'd get new trade exceptions at the deadline.  Aside from that unlikely scenario, it is very confusing.

Right, so those guys aren't worth paying 11.67 million this year with the tax implications but would they be worth it if it costs basically nothing. There just doesnt seem to be any decent free agents left at the moment but someone will get cut in Jan/Feb and will be looking to jump on board as a ring chaser.

I think the flaw in the plan is that if they work out and are helping the team, you are not going to want to subtract from the team as we enter the final push and playoffs.  I don't think this is an entirely unrealistic scenario though.

Take Birch for example.  If he were to become available for say a second, we could use a TPE and bring him in to keep our options open.  We may end up needing him if Horford or RWill suffer injuries so then we could trade say Pritchard at the deadline, assuming all the combo guards are healthy.  If it goes the other way and say White is injured but all the bigs are holding up, then we keep Pritchard and trade Birch or even Grant Williams.

This is a risky plan but does create options and flexibility.  In this case, for a contract that is only $6.7M, and if you believe that Birch is a useful player, then the worst case is you end up paying more tax if you can't pull off the salary trimming at the trade deadline.  That could be chalked up as just the cost of doing business.  Of course the plan also depends on Toronto looking to "dump" Birch which probably is not all that likely.

Something else to add to the equation:

Quote
The 23 teams below the tax will receive $10,456,987 each while the league will get the remaining $240,510,693 to help fund revenue sharing for the 2021-22 season.

This "bonus" can pay for part of this year's tax.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 10:50:07 AM by Vermont Green »

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2022, 10:33:31 AM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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I guess if we were getting seconds for them and we thought we could trade them at the deadline for those same or lesser seconds, it might make  sense, because then we've gotten four months of backup production at effectively no cost, and presumably we'd get new trade exceptions at the deadline.  Aside from that unlikely scenario, it is very confusing.

Right, so those guys aren't worth paying 11.67 million this year with the tax implications but would they be worth it if it costs basically nothing. There just doesnt seem to be any decent free agents left at the moment but someone will get cut in Jan/Feb and will be looking to jump on board as a ring chaser.

The current free agent market isn't great, but I think it's likely much better than what we'll see in buyout season.  It varies from year to year, but the buyout market didn't really materialize last season.  There were a few guys -- Dragic, Carter, Bembry -- but overall there wasn't much to choose from.  Compare that to the current crop of free agents:  Whiteside, Cousins, Zeller, Howard, Aldridge, Bledsoe, Schroder, Carmelo, Harrell (unlikely to take the minimum, but I guess we don't know that for sure), Griffin, Jackson, Paschall, Lamb, Kemba.  Those guys aren't great, but they may be better than what's available for buyouts.

The one potential buyout guy I'm interested in is Derrick Favors.  Maybe San Antonio buys out Josh Richardson at some point.  I'm not seeing a lot of expiring guys on non-contenders right now, but time will tell.  To the extent that there may be others, I'm fine carrying an open roster spot or a non-guaranteed guy like Kornet.

I love our defensive edge, and want them to find guys that fit in somehow. From that list, Howard (shotblocking) and Favors (rebounding) could contribute 10+ minutes a night as a backup big.

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2022, 10:47:07 AM »

Offline jay

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I could see a Rodney Hood or Jeremy Lamb if they are healthy. Not a rotation player but just to be on the roster in case of emergency. Someone with experience but not totally washed up yet.

Re: Who do we keep off the VSL team?
« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2022, 11:03:18 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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I think as it stands, we have 3 regular roster spots open plus Kornet on a very lightly guaranteed contract.  Others have pointed this out that Kornet isn't really on the roster.  I think they can cut him and only pay $100,000 or something like that.  So if someone beats out Kornet, there will be no hesitation to open that roster spot back up to add the player.  Based on this, I call it 4 roster spots and 1 2-way to be filled.

My feeling (maybe my hope) is that Kornet is just insurance for the insurance big.  For example is we were to sign Whiteside, I believe Kornet would very likely be cut. Definitely agree. If they do not sign a vet big, Kornet probably hangs on.  My prediction (again, maybe hope) is as follows:

12.  Whiteside Please no, I intensely dislike Whiteside's game and attitude.  That said, replace his name with Nerlens or Dwight and your point is still valid.
13.  Vet Wing (not sure who but I hope they can find someone to fit this role that is better than Hauser or Justin Jackson)
14.  Brodric Thomas or Justin Jackson or Matt Ryan (I prefer Thomas) See this is where I struggle, I like all 3.  Seems like Thomas has the inside track having been with the team all last year.  However, you can't ignore Ryan's shooting.
15.  Kabengele or Kornet

2-way  Davison
2-way  Kabengele or some other promising PF/C

The key is to sign the vet big and the vet wing.  To me, the rest doesn't matter nearly as much but I am fine filling up the final spots with "prospects".  For example, it makes no difference to me whether it is Kornet on the roster and Kabengele as a 2-way or Kabengele on the roster and some other prospect on the 2-way.
Good post, TP for the summary.  Now that Kab is signed I made a few edits and comments above.

I think you may have mixed up the strike through on Kornet as he still seems to have the 15th spot.  If it is true that Brodric Thomas was offered a 2-way, that indicates to me that the Celtics prefer him to Matt Ryan.  Justin Jackson may not be eligible for a 2-way.  The only reason that Thomas would decline a 2-way is if he thinks he can get a full roster spot.

12.  Whiteside
13.  Vet Wing (not sure who but I hope they can find someone to fit this role that is better than Hauser or Justin Jackson)
14.  Brodric Thomas or Justin Jackson or Matt Ryan (Brodric Thomas may have been offered a 2-way and declined)
15.  Kornet (for now)

2-way  Davison
2-way  Kabengele

2-ways can be elevated to full roster spots during the season.  So if they wanted Kabengele on the playoff roster, just cut someone (probably Kornet) and elevate Kabengele's contract to regular roster.

It seems like the Celtics are working from 1-11 but then flipping and working from the bottom up to 12.  Kornet could be considered 14 or 15 but it seems they are holding spots 12 and 13 to be sure they don't miss out on any useful vets that may become available.
Actually, I didn't. Even though technically Kornet is still on the roster, I was following your lead that he is very likely to be cut.  I crossed him off, but I think you changed the cross-out back to Kabengele.
Why would Kornet be likely to be cut? They just resigned him.

Cause he sucks and has no upside at 27. He’s good at being tall. Believe his contract is not guaranteed or only a small amount is. Would rather take a flier on Travion Williams.

Travion is so slow he makes Kornet look like Garnett.
This is just patently false

He's Kanter quick...
 ;D
As is Kornet
Not that it's much of a brag but Kornet is way faster than either of those guys and he's 7'2".

He’s really not, though.  If he was as good of an athlete at 7’2” as you are stating, he’d actually play in NBA games vs spending the whole year in Maine. He is in his late 20’s and has no upside at this point. Just a waste of a roster spot.

Saying Kornet is a better athlete than Trevion Williams and Kanter isn't much of a leap. Kanter is totally ground bound with no vertical and Trevion is slow and ground bound.

Travion had a 30inch vertical at the draft combine. League average is 28”. He had several alley oops in the SL which you can’t do playing below the rim. He also rebounded at a good clip, 6.6reb per game in only 14mpg.

Here is Luke’s scoring report coming out of college, which is the same report he’d receive now.

Kornet may fit offensively as a stretch five with a decent feel for the game, but he's quite immobile on the defensive end, struggling to guard pick and roll even in drop situations and leaving much to be desired on the defensive glass. The 7-footer struggles with grit and physicality in traffic, averaging only 6.0 defensive rebounds per 40 minutes, the third worst among centers in the DraftExpress Top 100. Although Kornet was a fairly effective rim protector in the SEC, his average mobility and leaping ability figure to limit him as a defensive anchor in the NBA. Kornet has also been somewhat erratic as a shooter throughout the course of his career - 23% as a freshman, 40.7% as a sophomore, 28% as a junior and 32.7% as a senior. If Kornet isn't making shots, he doesn't bring much to the table, especially with the way the game is trending. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Luke-Kornet-78500/ ©DraftExpress
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 11:08:51 AM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.