Should we / could we have developed more depth?

[Celtics2021]

This was my biggest gripe with Ime all year. You just never know when you're going to need some deep bench guys and if they haven't gotten any time all year they won't be ready. I even pointed to Miami as a team that played a lot of guys all year. I still think we'll beat the Heat but we might need some of those deep bench guys to step up.

I get the gripe, but we signed FIVE G-League players on or after the trade deadline.  Is it Ime's fault that Juwan Morgan hasn't gotten any time all year, when he was signed in late March?  Malik Fitts or Nik Stauskas who were signed a couple weeks earlier?  Nesmith appeared in 54 games and got 11 minutes per appearance, and given his play all season long it's difficult to justify any more on a contending team.  The only other deep  bench guy Udoka has really had a chance to develop is Hauser, and he's hurt too right now.

The Celtics dressed 8 players yesterday who weren't in the G league sometime in February or March.  This is not a consequence of Udoka's decisions, but rather of management/ownership's decision to get under the tax line at all costs, which necessitated so many late-season minimum-salary contracts.

[mef730]

Ridiculous to have two starters out for the first game of this series. OK , Smart gets hurt.
But Horford? Covid? Seems like this has happened to Al before this year.
It's inexcusable for these guys to get Covid at this crucial time.
There are masks and shots to avoid it.
Horford has been a key player in the playoffs so far.
You can't win a championship when stuff like this happens.
You have to be lucky.

I dunno, I've been vaxxed, boosted and wear a mask and still got COVID. Worst thing about it is that I think I got it at game 5 of the Milwaukee series. That was just an added kick to the groin.

Never had anything worse than a slight sore throat and am testing negative now. Can't really blame any player who did get vaxxed and boosted.

Mike

[nickagneta]

Nesmith did get into 16 games after February 1st at 12 minutes a game. He played okay but clearly he was the delineation point between the haves and have nots on this team. He showed he wasn't ready. I am not sure more minutes or playing every game would have solved his issues for this year. He has to get that three point shot going consistently to be on the floor as a 10th man and he obviously hasn't done that yet.

Also, a 9 man rotation is about right for the playoffs. No guys at 10, 11 or 12 in the rotation are going to win you games in the playoffs if guys 3 and 4 in the rotation are out.

[mef730]

One of the arguments during the season was that we should have relied upon a larger rotation in the regular season to 1) avoid injury; and 2) have somebody ready to step in if there was an injury.

Brad did a pretty good job addressing team needs.  Theis was a smart depth acquisition, and White fits our defensive scheme a lot better than Schroder ever would have.

But, as we saw last night, our team only has nine reliable players.  With NBA teams allowed to carry as many as 17 guys, having eight useless bodies on the bench doesn't necessarily serve our needs.

How could we have been better prepared?  Here are some options:

1.  Develop Nesmith by force-feeding him minutes.  The question is, is he capable of being developed?  And if so, at what cost?  Would it have been worth the trade off of additional losses?

2.  Pay the luxury tax and use the TPE.  Instead of using Josh Richardson and Romeo Langford for salary matching purposes in the White trade, the team could have potentially acquired him by using the TPE.  That means we'd have two extra players capable of stepping into the rotation.  It also means that Wyc and Pags would be several millions poorer.

3.  Signed better free agents / bought out players.  We had five roster spots open.  We used them on five guys who don't play.  Were there better options?  Could we have done more in the off-season to address wing depth?

In Ime's first year, I think he was less concerned about load management and more concerned about winning the maximum amount of games. Now that we beat Giannis in the playoffs, I don't think that he will be as concerned about winning every regular season game. Therefore, sitting players will be more of an option.

I completely agree about the luxury tax. I think the Celtics handled this well. If the players show that we can contend, then we can start in on the luxury tax that will escalate for the next 5+ years. Doing so with a dud (looking at you Atlanta, Lakers) doesn't make sense.

Re: free agents, I looked at the list, and nothing stood out (besides Beal). Doesn't mean they can't make an exciting signing, but I wasn't really too excited by the options. Again, this doesn't mean that much at all.

I think the Celtics will look different once Horford and Smart return.

I've been thinking a lot about Beal. In January, I would have said that they would be crazy to give a max contract (S&T) to Beal. But after what we've seen of this team, I'm open to discussions (Brad Stevens, you can just send me a PM and I'll let you know my phone number.).

Clearly, that would make next year an "all-in" year for the team, since our long-term success with small guards who are 30+ years old (Beal hits that in year 2) has not been anything to brag about.

Mike

[Roy H.]

Also, a 9 man rotation is about right for the playoffs. No guys at 10, 11 or 12 in the rotation are going to win you games in the playoffs if guys 3 and 4 in the rotation are out.

I agree that using a 9 man rotation is fine, but ideally you'd have other guys who could step into the rotation.

The Heat are maybe the best example of this:  They've got 11 guys who are averaging 10+ minutes per game, and if one of those guys gets hurt, they've got a couple of other guys on the bench that averaged 10+ minutes during the regular season.

In other words, they've got 13 guys that they can trust in games.  We've got nine. 

[Vermont Green]

I don't understand what the criticism is.  We had two starters out last night and lost to one of the best teams in the league that only had one starter out.

I think it is actually a testament to our depth that we had White available to replace Smart.  White is better than the vast majority of back up PGs in the league.  Our big depth gets hurt when we have a starter out but so wouldn't any team.  Our starters are Horford and RWill.  We have barely had them both for any games in the playoffs.  Our "depth" is GWill and Theis, that is not horrible and actually quite a bit better than Miami's big depth.  These guys are fine bench players but when they are forced to start or play starter minutes, it is a shortcoming.

We actually have better depth at big than Miami.  If they lose a starter (Tucker or Adebayo), they have to play Dedmon.  I am not even sure who is after that.  Certainly not anyone as good as even Theis.

Miami does have us beat in terms of guard depth.  They have Herro who we can equate with White and Vincent who is on par with Pritchard but they have us beat when you get to Oladipo.  He is a legit vet and we don't have anyone like that beyond White.

Neither team seems to have any real depth at wing.  We have two of the best wings in the league as starters but then Nesmith and I guess Stauskas.  They have Butler and Strus as starters backed up Celab Martin and Duncan Robinson.  I will take our wings in aggregate over their wings.

But does this add up to some kind of roster construction failure?  That they have 2 vet guards off the bench and we only have 1?  That they have more depth at guard while we have more depth at big and a stronger overall wing rotation?  I don't see it as a failure.  Imperfect?  Sure, like every roster.

[celticsclay]

We need one more live body that can step in and play a few minutes without destroying the team. Current guys that kind of jump out at me for deep bench depth over kornet, morgan etc (just one of them). If I am missing something on one of these guys (like currently free agent cause of bad injury) apologies as these are not guys I am tracking closely day to day.

Al Fariq Aminu (not sure just how bad he is right now, but would have to believe he could play a little d and hit a corner 3)
Jordan Bell (big body, has played minutes for good team in the past and is not that old)
Just Anderson (can't shoot a lick, but can play decent defense good size and strength)
D'andre Bembry (good deep bench guy)
Willie Caulie Stein (get a few boards, athletic, extra fouls)
Michael Carter Williams (good deep bench guard depth)
Matt Dellladova
Dante Exum
Illasova
Rondae Hollis Jefferson

[mef730]

Man, I'm getting old. I remember Dante Exum getting drafted 4th, two picks before Marcus. He was the hot player at draft time that year, kind of the way Kris Dunn was a few years later in Brown's draft class.

And WCS was supposed to reinvent NBA defense.

Michael Carter-Williams, the RoY who Philly traded as part of "the process."

Ahh, good times.

Mike

[nickagneta]

We need one more live body that can step in and play a few minutes without destroying the team. Current guys that kind of jump out at me for deep bench depth over kornet, morgan etc (just one of them). If I am missing something on one of these guys (like currently free agent cause of bad injury) apologies as these are not guys I am tracking closely day to day.

Al Fariq Aminu (not sure just how bad he is right now, but would have to believe he could play a little d and hit a corner 3)
Jordan Bell (big body, has played minutes for good team in the past and is not that old)
Just Anderson (can't shoot a lick, but can play decent defense good size and strength)
D'andre Bembry (good deep bench guy)
Willie Caulie Stein (get a few boards, athletic, extra fouls)
Michael Carter Williams (good deep bench guard depth)
Matt Dellladova
Dante Exum
Illasova
Rondae Hollis Jefferson

That is one large group of pure garbage players right there. I think I trust Nesmith, Kornet, Thomas and Hauser over those guys.

[sgrogan]

This was my biggest gripe with Ime all year. You just never know when you're going to need some deep bench guys and if they haven't gotten any time all year they won't be ready. I even pointed to Miami as a team that played a lot of guys all year. I still think we'll beat the Heat but we might need some of those deep bench guys to step up.

I get the gripe, but we signed FIVE G-League players on or after the trade deadline.  Is it Ime's fault that Juwan Morgan hasn't gotten any time all year, when he was signed in late March?  Malik Fitts or Nik Stauskas who were signed a couple weeks earlier?  Nesmith appeared in 54 games and got 11 minutes per appearance, and given his play all season long it's difficult to justify any more on a contending team.  The only other deep  bench guy Udoka has really had a chance to develop is Hauser, and he's hurt too right now.

The Celtics dressed 8 players yesterday who weren't in the G league sometime in February or March.  This is not a consequence of Udoka's decisions, but rather of management/ownership's decision to get under the tax line at all costs, which necessitated so many late-season minimum-salary contracts.

I can't agree with this anymore than 300% (3x reality is as far as I can go)
PBS assembled a championship capable roster, Ime coached the team into contention.
Our top 9 is fine, great by metrics since the deadline.
We've shown the ability to overcome one guy being out, just not two.

I will even allow that staying out of the tax this year was a wise decision.
If ownership was willing to hit the tax this year maybe we could still have Richardson with White.
Not sure it was 100% clear this would have been obvious where we were at the deadline.


The question for me is can/will we acquire/develop more depth next season. We have limited, but valuable assets to do this. The biggest asset is probably ownership being willing to spend into the tax and how much.

[celticsclay]

We need one more live body that can step in and play a few minutes without destroying the team. Current guys that kind of jump out at me for deep bench depth over kornet, morgan etc (just one of them). If I am missing something on one of these guys (like currently free agent cause of bad injury) apologies as these are not guys I am tracking closely day to day.

Al Fariq Aminu (not sure just how bad he is right now, but would have to believe he could play a little d and hit a corner 3)
Jordan Bell (big body, has played minutes for good team in the past and is not that old)
Just Anderson (can't shoot a lick, but can play decent defense good size and strength)
D'andre Bembry (good deep bench guy)
Willie Caulie Stein (get a few boards, athletic, extra fouls)
Michael Carter Williams (good deep bench guard depth)
Matt Dellladova
Dante Exum
Illasova
Rondae Hollis Jefferson

That is one large group of pure garbage players right there. I think I trust Nesmith, Kornet, Thomas and Hauser over those guys.

I mean they are out of the league for a reason. Some of these guys just have an advantage in size/strength over our guys, particularly in the frontcourt. Kornet may be 7ft but he plays like he is a week 6'6 and has no athleticism whatsover. You don't think for example last night WCS could bother Bam more than Kornet would be able to?

[nickagneta]

We need one more live body that can step in and play a few minutes without destroying the team. Current guys that kind of jump out at me for deep bench depth over kornet, morgan etc (just one of them). If I am missing something on one of these guys (like currently free agent cause of bad injury) apologies as these are not guys I am tracking closely day to day.

Al Fariq Aminu (not sure just how bad he is right now, but would have to believe he could play a little d and hit a corner 3)
Jordan Bell (big body, has played minutes for good team in the past and is not that old)
Just Anderson (can't shoot a lick, but can play decent defense good size and strength)
D'andre Bembry (good deep bench guy)
Willie Caulie Stein (get a few boards, athletic, extra fouls)
Michael Carter Williams (good deep bench guard depth)
Matt Dellladova
Dante Exum
Illasova
Rondae Hollis Jefferson

That is one large group of pure garbage players right there. I think I trust Nesmith, Kornet, Thomas and Hauser over those guys.

I mean they are out of the league for a reason. Some of these guys just have an advantage in size/strength over our guys, particularly in the frontcourt. Kornet may be 7ft but he plays like he is a week 6'6 and has no athleticism whatsover. You don't think for example last night WCS could bother Bam more than Kornet would be able to?

Nope

[celticsclay]

We need one more live body that can step in and play a few minutes without destroying the team. Current guys that kind of jump out at me for deep bench depth over kornet, morgan etc (just one of them). If I am missing something on one of these guys (like currently free agent cause of bad injury) apologies as these are not guys I am tracking closely day to day.

Al Fariq Aminu (not sure just how bad he is right now, but would have to believe he could play a little d and hit a corner 3)
Jordan Bell (big body, has played minutes for good team in the past and is not that old)
Just Anderson (can't shoot a lick, but can play decent defense good size and strength)
D'andre Bembry (good deep bench guy)
Willie Caulie Stein (get a few boards, athletic, extra fouls)
Michael Carter Williams (good deep bench guard depth)
Matt Dellladova
Dante Exum
Illasova
Rondae Hollis Jefferson

That is one large group of pure garbage players right there. I think I trust Nesmith, Kornet, Thomas and Hauser over those guys.

I mean they are out of the league for a reason. Some of these guys just have an advantage in size/strength over our guys, particularly in the frontcourt. Kornet may be 7ft but he plays like he is a week 6'6 and has no athleticism whatsover. You don't think for example last night WCS could bother Bam more than Kornet would be able to?

Nope

If feels like you are kind of taking the stance nobody not in the league could perform better than kornet as big man depth, which honestly strikes me as ridiculous. Some of these guys may not be willining to sign for vet minimum because they make much more money in China or Europe (mirotic is three times the player kornet is, but makes million a year for Barcelona as an example). The same is probably true of Walter Tavares and Madrid. The fact we couldn’t use Kornet when we were down to 2 players 6’9 or taller (and kornet is not a prospect at 27) makes this stance rather unfathomable to me. Ime has shown us he doesn’t belong in nba with this. You seemingly disagree. If you particularly dislike WCS for some reason fine, but kornet is clearly bad usage of a roster spot we could do better with.

[nickagneta]

We need one more live body that can step in and play a few minutes without destroying the team. Current guys that kind of jump out at me for deep bench depth over kornet, morgan etc (just one of them). If I am missing something on one of these guys (like currently free agent cause of bad injury) apologies as these are not guys I am tracking closely day to day.

Al Fariq Aminu (not sure just how bad he is right now, but would have to believe he could play a little d and hit a corner 3)
Jordan Bell (big body, has played minutes for good team in the past and is not that old)
Just Anderson (can't shoot a lick, but can play decent defense good size and strength)
D'andre Bembry (good deep bench guy)
Willie Caulie Stein (get a few boards, athletic, extra fouls)
Michael Carter Williams (good deep bench guard depth)
Matt Dellladova
Dante Exum
Illasova
Rondae Hollis Jefferson

That is one large group of pure garbage players right there. I think I trust Nesmith, Kornet, Thomas and Hauser over those guys.

I mean they are out of the league for a reason. Some of these guys just have an advantage in size/strength over our guys, particularly in the frontcourt. Kornet may be 7ft but he plays like he is a week 6'6 and has no athleticism whatsover. You don't think for example last night WCS could bother Bam more than Kornet would be able to?

Nope

If feels like you are kind of taking the stance nobody not in the league could perform better than kornet as big man depth, which honestly strikes me as ridiculous. Some of these guys may not be willining to sign for vet minimum because they make much more money in China or Europe (mirotic is three times the player kornet is, but makes million a year for Barcelona as an example). The same is probably true of Walter Tavares and Madrid. The fact we couldn’t use Kornet when we were down to 2 players 6’9 or taller (and kornet is not a prospect at 27) makes this stance rather unfathomable to me. Ime has shown us he doesn’t belong in nba with this. You seemingly disagree. If you particularly dislike WCS for some reason fine, but kornet is clearly bad usage of a roster spot we could do better with.

You're talking about needing to upgrade your 4th string center because you wanted to limited Bam, who went for 10/4 with Horford out and Kornet not playing. Kornet is fine for what he is and any guy you would want to replace him, wasn't getting into the game last night. Much ado over nothing.

[kraidstar]

Nesmith should have gotten more minutes. And maybe PP. The other bench guys really aren't worth developing unless they make some quantum leap