Should we / could we have developed more depth?

[SparzWizard]

Man, I'm getting old. I remember Dante Exum getting drafted 4th, two picks before Marcus. He was the hot player at draft time that year, kind of the way Kris Dunn was a few years later in Brown's draft class.

And WCS was supposed to reinvent NBA defense.

Michael Carter-Williams, the RoY who Philly traded as part of "the process."

Ahh, good times.

Mike

Nerlens Noel man lol. Jabari Parker and Andrew Wiggins were supposed to be the next LeBron in 2014 too lol

[Goldstar88]

Celtics have Thomas, Kornet, Morgan, Hauser, Fitts, Ryan, and Stauskas. That’s 7 G-league guys that are basically unplayable in a postseason game. Nesmith is borderline unplayable as well since he is so out of control and can’t make a shot. That’s wayyy too many project players.  Should only have 2 or 3 of those type of players not 7.

[liam]

Celtics have Thomas, Kornet, Morgan, Hauser, Fitts, Ryan, and Stauskas. That’s 7 G-league guys that are basically unplayable in a playoff game. Nesmith is borderline unplayable as well since he is so out of control and can’t make a shot. That’s wayyy too many project players.  Should only have 2 or 3 of those type of players not 7.

Agreed.

[nickagneta]

Funny that this wasn't an issue until the Celtics lost a game with two starters out and lost because the top 5 guys left, including their two stars, decided to take a snooze in the first 5 minutes if one period and gave the game away.

The game wasn't lost due to our deep bench not helping. It was lost because our stars, other starters and top two bench guys no showed for an entire quarter.

If the bench had guys that were more experienced, the outcome would have been the same because the game wasn't lost by the deep bench.

[Roy H.]

Celtics have Thomas, Kornet, Morgan, Hauser, Fitts, Ryan, and Stauskas. That’s 7 G-league guys that are basically unplayable in a playoff game. Nesmith is borderline unplayable as well since he is so out of control and can’t make a shot. That’s wayyy too many project players.  Should only have 2 or 3 of those type of players not 7.

Agreed.

Yeah, I don't really understand what Brad was doing filling out the roster. 

At the same time, if you look at who was signed, there weren't a ton of great options:

https://www.nba.com/stats/transactions/

The guys I liked were DeMarcus Cousins, Cody Zeller (not signed), DeAndre Bembry, and D.J. Augustin. 

[Roy H.]

Funny that this wasn't an issue until the Celtics lost a game with two starters out and lost because the top 5 guys left, including their two stars, decided to take a snooze in the first 5 minutes if one period and gave the game away.

The game wasn't lost due to our deep bench not helping. It was lost because our stars, other starters and top two bench guys no showed for an entire quarter.

If the bench had guys that were more experienced, the outcome would have been the same because the game wasn't lost by the deep bench.

First, it's been mentioned as an issue pretty much all season, particularly since the trade deadline.

Beyond that, though, isn't that what a deep bench is for?  You don't rely on them until you need them, like in the case of two starters being out.  When your nine man rotation turns into seven playable guys, there's going to be fatigue, which probably contributed some last night.

[celticsclay]

We need one more live body that can step in and play a few minutes without destroying the team. Current guys that kind of jump out at me for deep bench depth over kornet, morgan etc (just one of them). If I am missing something on one of these guys (like currently free agent cause of bad injury) apologies as these are not guys I am tracking closely day to day.

Al Fariq Aminu (not sure just how bad he is right now, but would have to believe he could play a little d and hit a corner 3)
Jordan Bell (big body, has played minutes for good team in the past and is not that old)
Just Anderson (can't shoot a lick, but can play decent defense good size and strength)
D'andre Bembry (good deep bench guy)
Willie Caulie Stein (get a few boards, athletic, extra fouls)
Michael Carter Williams (good deep bench guard depth)
Matt Dellladova
Dante Exum
Illasova
Rondae Hollis Jefferson

That is one large group of pure garbage players right there. I think I trust Nesmith, Kornet, Thomas and Hauser over those guys.

I mean they are out of the league for a reason. Some of these guys just have an advantage in size/strength over our guys, particularly in the frontcourt. Kornet may be 7ft but he plays like he is a week 6'6 and has no athleticism whatsover. You don't think for example last night WCS could bother Bam more than Kornet would be able to?

Nope

If feels like you are kind of taking the stance nobody not in the league could perform better than kornet as big man depth, which honestly strikes me as ridiculous. Some of these guys may not be willining to sign for vet minimum because they make much more money in China or Europe (mirotic is three times the player kornet is, but makes million a year for Barcelona as an example). The same is probably true of Walter Tavares and Madrid. The fact we couldn’t use Kornet when we were down to 2 players 6’9 or taller (and kornet is not a prospect at 27) makes this stance rather unfathomable to me. Ime has shown us he doesn’t belong in nba with this. You seemingly disagree. If you particularly dislike WCS for some reason fine, but kornet is clearly bad usage of a roster spot we could do better with.

You're talking about needing to upgrade your 4th string center because you wanted to limited Bam, who went for 10/4 with Horford out and Kornet not playing. Kornet is fine for what he is and any guy you would want to replace him, wasn't getting into the game last night. Much ado over nothing.

I would feel pretty comfortable arguing there is not even a semi-serious contender out there that goes 7 deep with unplayable players like we do. And these moves around the margin do end up mattering when injuries crop up. We are literally seeing this right now with the heat where they have guys like Struss and Vincent that can step in when Lowry is injury. We also could have had Dedmond over many of these guys as he makes the minimum and was waived before signing with Miami. As a contender you should have a player like him instead of a Kornet (btw Dedmond was plus 16 in 11 minutes last night with 6 points and 4 boards in this minutes. I really don't get the angle that there is nothing we could do and have scrubs like Kornet (who is about to be 27 and is not going to improve) as a roster holder when we could have someone who would actually see the floor in a playoff game. We very well may lose this series because the Heat have more players that can step in and not kill them if they have some injuries.

I am very happy with the Celtics overall and think we very well could be champions but taking the viewpoint they couldn't have done anything better with their bench is downright strange, and I am pretty sure Both Stevens and Ime will acknowledge that is a priority in their offseason pressers. If we get into a mindset the Celtics transactions are completely infallible it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me (and I have liked a lot of moves they have made, this is just a fair criticism around the margins).   

[celticsclay]

Funny that this wasn't an issue until the Celtics lost a game with two starters out and lost because the top 5 guys left, including their two stars, decided to take a snooze in the first 5 minutes if one period and gave the game away.

The game wasn't lost due to our deep bench not helping. It was lost because our stars, other starters and top two bench guys no showed for an entire quarter.

If the bench had guys that were more experienced, the outcome would have been the same because the game wasn't lost by the deep bench.

First, it's been mentioned as an issue pretty much all season, particularly since the trade deadline.

Beyond that, though, isn't that what a deep bench is for?  You don't rely on them until you need them, like in the case of two starters being out.  When your nine man rotation turns into seven playable guys, there's going to be fatigue, which probably contributed some last night.

I'll add, why are we not acknowledging the starters probably were a lot more wiped than the heat in the second half and very well COULD have been why we lost. Tatum played 44 minutes and was significantly worse in the second half. Brown was at 43. The high for heat was Butler with 41, Bam played 37 and herro played 27. That absolutely helped them yesterday. Also, Nick where have you been, we have been complaining about having 5 dleague guys since we used all our roster spots on them after the deadline. We literally almost all complained the day it happened.

[CelticsWhat35]

Funny that this wasn't an issue until the Celtics lost a game with two starters out and lost because the top 5 guys left, including their two stars, decided to take a snooze in the first 5 minutes if one period and gave the game away.

The game wasn't lost due to our deep bench not helping. It was lost because our stars, other starters and top two bench guys no showed for an entire quarter.

If the bench had guys that were more experienced, the outcome would have been the same because the game wasn't lost by the deep bench.

First, it's been mentioned as an issue pretty much all season, particularly since the trade deadline.

Beyond that, though, isn't that what a deep bench is for?  You don't rely on them until you need them, like in the case of two starters being out.  When your nine man rotation turns into seven playable guys, there's going to be fatigue, which probably contributed some last night.

I'll add, why are we not acknowledging the starters probably were a lot more wiped than the heat in the second half and very well COULD have been why we lost. Tatum played 44 minutes and was significantly worse in the second half. Brown was at 43. The high for heat was Butler with 41, Bam played 37 and herro played 27. That absolutely helped them yesterday. Also, Nick where have you been, we have been complaining about having 5 dleague guys since we used all our roster spots on them after the deadline. We literally almost all complained the day it happened.

That would make more sense if their atrocious 14-39 showing happened in the 4th quarter, but it was in the 3rd and right from the start.  It was a 22-2 run to kick things off and was entirely due to their sloppy play and the Heat getting more aggressive.  They ended up cutting a 20-pt deficit down to 7 in the 4th when they presumably should’ve been more fatigued.

[celticsclay]

Funny that this wasn't an issue until the Celtics lost a game with two starters out and lost because the top 5 guys left, including their two stars, decided to take a snooze in the first 5 minutes if one period and gave the game away.

The game wasn't lost due to our deep bench not helping. It was lost because our stars, other starters and top two bench guys no showed for an entire quarter.

If the bench had guys that were more experienced, the outcome would have been the same because the game wasn't lost by the deep bench.

First, it's been mentioned as an issue pretty much all season, particularly since the trade deadline.

Beyond that, though, isn't that what a deep bench is for?  You don't rely on them until you need them, like in the case of two starters being out.  When your nine man rotation turns into seven playable guys, there's going to be fatigue, which probably contributed some last night.

I'll add, why are we not acknowledging the starters probably were a lot more wiped than the heat in the second half and very well COULD have been why we lost. Tatum played 44 minutes and was significantly worse in the second half. Brown was at 43. The high for heat was Butler with 41, Bam played 37 and herro played 27. That absolutely helped them yesterday. Also, Nick where have you been, we have been complaining about having 5 dleague guys since we used all our roster spots on them after the deadline. We literally almost all complained the day it happened.

That would make more sense if their atrocious 14-39 showing happened in the 4th quarter, but it was in the 3rd and right from the start.  It was a 22-2 run to kick things off and was entirely due to their sloppy play and the Heat getting more aggressive.  They ended up cutting a 20-pt deficit down to 7 in the 4th when they presumably should’ve been more fatigued.

m
Not sure why you are presenting your opinion on how fatigue works as a fact. It is entirely possible you play too much in a first half and then are forced to sit down for 30 minutes it is harder to ramp back up to start the second half. Also let’s not act like we made a serious run to close the game. It was never in doubt. I assume you have watched enough basketball to understand how end of games goes in  a decided game. The team with the lead runs clock and takes slightly worse shots  (plus also may not even shoot on their last couple possessions and definitely not on the last one). This is routinely reflected in live betting lines. Let’s not pretend me made a massive run that out the game in doubt in the 4th. I’ll also acknowledge that maybe the third was coaching or something else. But we can’t just present opinions on how fatigue works as facts

[Goldstar88]

Celtics have Thomas, Kornet, Morgan, Hauser, Fitts, Ryan, and Stauskas. That’s 7 G-league guys that are basically unplayable in a playoff game. Nesmith is borderline unplayable as well since he is so out of control and can’t make a shot. That’s wayyy too many project players.  Should only have 2 or 3 of those type of players not 7.

Agreed.

Yeah, I don't really understand what Brad was doing filling out the roster. 

At the same time, if you look at who was signed, there weren't a ton of great options:

https://www.nba.com/stats/transactions/

The guys I liked were DeMarcus Cousins, Cody Zeller (not signed), DeAndre Bembry, and D.J. Augustin.

This is one of the few issues I have with Brad as GM. There is no way Kornet is a better option at C than Cody Zeller. Wesley Mathews went unsigned until December. He wouldn’t have been a better option than the 8 guys listed above? Thought Bol Bol would have been a good project player, but the C’s immediately shipped him out and then cut Jabari Parker who wasn’t a bad 3rd stringer. Not sure what Brad is trying to do with some of these guys and I think it’s irresponsible to have that many project players on the team considering how frequently guys are missing time due to injuries and Covid protocols.

[BitterJim]

It's definitely a short bench, but that's what happens when you move 6 players at/around the trade deadline (I'm counting the Hernangomez deal and the later deal sending Dozier+Bol to the Magic as one deal since those two basically weren't on the team).  If a good buyout player had been available, maybe that would have helped, but we weren't really viewed as a contender until later so it's unlikely that they would have wanted to sign with us.

You don't usually see contenders trading that many players at the deadline, so it's hard to compare the current depth to other contenders. It's something that will be a concern if it carries into next year, but the deep bench is typically something you take care of during the summer so that's what I'd expect anyway. If you're expecting the 12-15th men to be anything other than net negatives on the court, though, you're going to be disappointed. Good players don't sign on to be break-in-case-of-emergency depth.

[nickagneta]

It's definitely a short bench, but that's what happens when you move 6 players at/around the trade deadline (I'm counting the Hernangomez deal and the later deal sending Dozier+Bol to the Magic as one deal since those two basically weren't on the team).  If a good buyout player had been available, maybe that would have helped, but we weren't really viewed as a contender until later so it's unlikely that they would have wanted to sign with us.

You don't usually see contenders trading that many players at the deadline, so it's hard to compare the current depth to other contenders. It's something that will be a concern if it carries into next year, but the deep bench is typically something you take care of during the summer so that's what I'd expect anyway. If you're expecting the 12-15th men to be anything other than net negatives on the court, though, you're going to be disappointed. Good players don't sign on to be break-in-case-of-emergency depth.

TP Jim. Exactly.

Yes, we have known and discussed the lack of deep bench quality since the trade deadline, but so what? Why are we bringing it up now? It's not like the bench lost this game or that the deep bench cost the team any losses so far in this playoff.

[Kernewek]

Well I think that is the point of contention developing in this thread - whether our bench cost us the game as our starters were out.

I don't agree with it, but I don't think it's a binary answer, either.

[Moranis]

It's definitely a short bench, but that's what happens when you move 6 players at/around the trade deadline (I'm counting the Hernangomez deal and the later deal sending Dozier+Bol to the Magic as one deal since those two basically weren't on the team).  If a good buyout player had been available, maybe that would have helped, but we weren't really viewed as a contender until later so it's unlikely that they would have wanted to sign with us.

You don't usually see contenders trading that many players at the deadline, so it's hard to compare the current depth to other contenders. It's something that will be a concern if it carries into next year, but the deep bench is typically something you take care of during the summer so that's what I'd expect anyway. If you're expecting the 12-15th men to be anything other than net negatives on the court, though, you're going to be disappointed. Good players don't sign on to be break-in-case-of-emergency depth.

TP Jim. Exactly.

Yes, we have known and discussed the lack of deep bench quality since the trade deadline, but so what? Why are we bringing it up now? It's not like the bench lost this game or that the deep bench cost the team any losses so far in this playoff.

because it was very likely a big factor in the loss of a game Boston was up big in the first half of.  It isn't like Miami started the game on a huge 22-2 run where fatigue wouldn't have been a factor (or only a very minor one).  The fact that it was the 2nd half, after Boston's starters played a lot of minutes in the 1st half is absolutely a factor.  Especially for Tatum who was very sloppy in the 3rd quarter.  Sloppy play is often the result of fatigue.  I heard on the radio this morning that no one has ever had 6 turnovers in a quarter until Tatum last night.  Miami came out after halftime with an immense intensity (especially Jimmy Buckets) that Boston just couldn't match, and very well may have been largely as a result of fatigue.  Some of that fatigue was the quick turn around and the hard fought 7 game series, but some of it was absolutely the result of a weak bench and extra minutes (and load and need to do more) on the starters.

The bench is a problem and some of the moves weren't probably necessary.  Like why did Boston trade Freedom or Bol Bol.  There was no reason to trade either of them and both would have had more impact than Kornet.  Why was Parker waived?  He could have provided some offensive pop in short bursts.  yeah a lot of players went out and moved around, but some of that wasn't necessary to acquire the rotation we ended up with.  We absolutely could have and should have had a better and deeper bench.