Poll: which player would help the C's more

[KG Living Legend]

 These are all gettable players of positions we could use. For me it's a question of Levert vs Collins.

Timelord
Collins
Tatum
Brown
White

Timelord
Tatum
Brown
Levert
White

I'm going with Levert

[Csfan1984]

Collins. Collins and TL would wreak havoc. No one would dare stand near the rim or follow the rolling big. The rebounding and defense would be impressive. Now with White here the team should set up easier buckets for the bigs. Unlike Grant, Collins is dunking the ball if given point blank shots.

[nickagneta]

Collins. Collins and TL would wreak havoc. No one would dare stand near the rim or follow the rolling big. The rebounding and defense would be impressive. Now with White here the team should set up easier buckets for the bigs. Unlike Grant, Collins is dunking the ball if given point blank shots.

I actually think the defense would get worse by subbing in Collins for Horford. Collins isn't a very good defender or shot blocker. Or at least, he isn't as good as Horford is in those areas.

Where he would best help the team is on offense where he can stretch the floor with his excellent three point shooting, while also being able to take guys down low that don't match up well with him.

He would become the only true big that can both pick and roll and pick and pop at successful rates. Horford hasn't been able to do both successfully at all this year.

His rebounding is also better than Al's, more so defensively.

An off-season trade centered around Collins for Smart would make the most sense for both teams.

[KG Living Legend]

Collins. Collins and TL would wreak havoc. No one would dare stand near the rim or follow the rolling big. The rebounding and defense would be impressive. Now with White here the team should set up easier buckets for the bigs. Unlike Grant, Collins is dunking the ball if given point blank shots.

I actually think the defense would get worse by subbing in Collins for Horford. Collins isn't a very good defender or shot blocker. Or at least, he isn't as good as Horford is in those areas.

Where he would best help the team is on offense where he can stretch the floor with his excellent three point shooting, while also being able to take guys down low that don't match up well with him.

He would become the only true big that can both pick and roll and pick and pop at successful rates. Horford hasn't been able to do both successfully at all this year.

His rebounding is also better than Al's, more so defensively.

An off-season trade centered around Collins for Smart would make the most sense for both teams.

 So are you saying you would take Collins over Levert?

[nickagneta]

Collins. Collins and TL would wreak havoc. No one would dare stand near the rim or follow the rolling big. The rebounding and defense would be impressive. Now with White here the team should set up easier buckets for the bigs. Unlike Grant, Collins is dunking the ball if given point blank shots.

I actually think the defense would get worse by subbing in Collins for Horford. Collins isn't a very good defender or shot blocker. Or at least, he isn't as good as Horford is in those areas.

Where he would best help the team is on offense where he can stretch the floor with his excellent three point shooting, while also being able to take guys down low that don't match up well with him.

He would become the only true big that can both pick and roll and pick and pop at successful rates. Horford hasn't been able to do both successfully at all this year.

His rebounding is also better than Al's, more so defensively.

An off-season trade centered around Collins for Smart would make the most sense for both teams.

 So are you saying you would take Collins over Levert?

Easily. Collins efficiency is amazing, three point shooting at around 40% and he plays the 4. LeVert has poor efficiency and is at the wing, where we are flush.

[Who]

CJ McCollum -- he'd be awesome in a three man guard rotation next to Smart and Derrick White. The team would have lethal smaller lineups with both of the Jays at forward. Bridging on being unguardable.

[moiso]

It always seems like Levert plays better when there is less talent around him and he gets a huge role.  I don't think he's our guy.  I'm down for the Horford/Smart for Collins type trades.  Collins seems very efficient whether he's taking 7 shots or 20 shots.  I really like his offensive game.

[Hoopvortex]

Collins. Collins and TL would wreak havoc. No one would dare stand near the rim or follow the rolling big. The rebounding and defense would be impressive. Now with White here the team should set up easier buckets for the bigs. Unlike Grant, Collins is dunking the ball if given point blank shots.

I actually think the defense would get worse by subbing in Collins for Horford. Collins isn't a very good defender or shot blocker. Or at least, he isn't as good as Horford is in those areas.

Very true. And Al has been the unsung hero of the Celtics' outstanding team defense this year.

I would also add that Al is much better at moving the ball and playing a team game on offense. Maybe if Collins would get more touches he would also give up the ball more often. Al's Ast% is almost double John's: 17.7% vs. 9.3%. That's already indicative, but in the big picture Al's game is just more team-oriented on offense.

Looking at the bigger picture for the Celtics, is John Collins a good complement to The Two Jays®? I have to say I'm doubtful, as efficient a scorer as he is - and it's an awful lot of money.

He would become the only true big that can both pick and roll and pick and pop at successful rates. Horford hasn't been able to do both successfully at all this year.

That's a good observation. I'd say that time has been good to Al Horford, on the whole, but even he can't do what he once did. In his last stint in Boston, .242 of his shots were at the rim and .281 were threes; so far this year the split is .164 at the rim and .422 from the arc - one indication among many that his game has evolved to a more complementary role.

His rebounding is also better than Al's, more so defensively.

Let me give you better numbers - wherever you're getting this.

Defensive Rebound % controls for possessions played and available rebounds; so far this year John Collins is at 21.2% and Al Horford at 21.9%. Neither of those numbers would have you call the player a rebounder; those are very modest numbers for a big.

It would take a sustained string of games of drastically changed production to flip those stats. It's fair to say that Al is a modestly better defensive rebounder than John.

An off-season trade centered around Collins for Smart would make the most sense for both teams.

Except that Marcus Smart is not going anywhere.

[Who]

It always seems like Levert plays better when there is less talent around him and he gets a huge role.  I don't think he's our guy.  I'm down for the Horford/Smart for Collins type trades.  Collins seems very efficient whether he's taking 7 shots or 20 shots.  I really like his offensive game.

Yeah, I am not a fan of LeVert. Bad scoring efficiency his whole career. Around 52-53% TS% (something like that). His passing adds positive value to your team offense beyond his subpar individual scoring contributions to make him useful.

But like you said, LeVert always does better on worse teams and worse on better teams. He needs a lot of touches, a lot of time on the ball to be a difference maker and he isn't efficient enough / effective enough to get those touches on a high end team.

I can't help but look at the three names and think "one of these is not the like the others" with LeVert.

[Who]

I am not as keen on John Collins as a fit for this team as some others are. I like his game and I'd take him if cheaply available but he would not rate highly on my list.

I still believe the best team setup for Collins is a team where he plays next to a stretch five like Myles Turner. Someone who can anchor the defense but also vacate the paint on offense.

What makes Collins special is his interior scoring. Not his perimeter scoring. And to make the most of that interior scoring you gotta create space for him so he can attack. If you ask him to stand around on the perimeter to much he becomes passive and a non-factor in the game. He is an adequate shooter more than a good shooter or a great shooter. This is seen more through his volume (number of shot attempts) rather than his shooting percentages. You see he is a reluctant shooter at only 3 attempts from 3 per game despite shooting 39-40% for 3 straight years. Only about a quarter of his shots from three point range.

Where Collins is lethal and phenomenally efficient is attacking the rim. He does this in transition, on PnRs, on post ups, face up drives from mid-post and straight line drives from 3 point range. Those are his high efficiency / highly effective weapons.

Pairing him with Clint Capela in Atlanta has failed to allow Collins to fully utilize those weapons. As a result, Collins has (1) become passive and inconsistent at times in big games because he is unable to play to his strengths (2) unhappy with his role.

This would be the same situation here in Boston next to Rob Williams. Same issues, same problems.

[nickagneta]

Collins. Collins and TL would wreak havoc. No one would dare stand near the rim or follow the rolling big. The rebounding and defense would be impressive. Now with White here the team should set up easier buckets for the bigs. Unlike Grant, Collins is dunking the ball if given point blank shots.

I actually think the defense would get worse by subbing in Collins for Horford. Collins isn't a very good defender or shot blocker. Or at least, he isn't as good as Horford is in those areas.

Very true. And Al has been the unsung hero of the Celtics' outstanding team defense this year.

I would also add that Al is much better at moving the ball and playing a team game on offense. Maybe if Collins would get more touches he would also give up the ball more often. Al's Ast% is almost double John's: 17.7% vs. 9.3%. That's already indicative, but in the big picture Al's game is just more team-oriented on offense.

Looking at the bigger picture for the Celtics, is John Collins a good complement to The Two Jays®? I have to say I'm doubtful, as efficient a scorer as he is - and it's an awful lot of money.

He would become the only true big that can both pick and roll and pick and pop at successful rates. Horford hasn't been able to do both successfully at all this year.

That's a good observation. I'd say that time has been good to Al Horford, on the whole, but even he can't do what he once did. In his last stint in Boston, .242 of his shots were at the rim and .281 were threes; so far this year the split is .164 at the rim and .422 from the arc - one indication among many that his game has evolved to a more complementary role.

His rebounding is also better than Al's, more so defensively.

Let me give you better numbers - wherever you're getting this.

Defensive Rebound % controls for possessions played and available rebounds; so far this year John Collins is at 21.2% and Al Horford at 21.9%. Neither of those numbers would have you call the player a rebounder; those are very modest numbers for a big.

It would take a sustained string of games of drastically changed production to flip those stats. It's fair to say that Al is a modestly better defensive rebounder than John.

An off-season trade centered around Collins for Smart would make the most sense for both teams.

Except that Marcus Smart is not going anywhere.

Regarding the rebounding, I was looking more at Collins time in the league versus Horford's numbers during that same period.

Collins is at 22% whereas Al is at 19.9% in DReb%. TReb% Collins is at 15.6% and Al at 12.8%.

Hope that clarifies my statement.

[Celtics4ever]

None of those would be guys I would be going after.  Out of that list,  I would take Collins but not a top choice for a player to add by any means.

[liam]

None of those would be guys I would be going after.  Out of that list,  I would take Collins but not a top choice for a player to add by any means.

Who could we get and how?

[gouki88]

CJ would have been my #1, but I’m not sure how available he is, so I’ll vote for Collins. He’s an awesome 3rd guy on offence, and the defence would be just fine in a lineup of White-Brown-Tatum-Collins-Timelord

[colincb]

McCollum has the best overall RAPTOR scores easily over the last 5 years with an average of +1.90 overall vs Collins at +1.30 and Levert at +0.46.

With a career 3FG% of 39.6%, I think I'd go with him for his scoring ability. Not a good defender and short, but he can also distribute and this team needs a proven volume shooter to balance the roster out.