Celts get Derrick White for Richardson, Langford, #1, 2028 pick swap

[slamtheking]

I think by slam’s definition, there hasn’t been a single elite defender in the history of the NBA.

I mean, Bill Russell didn’t make Wilt a non-factor on offense.  KG didn’t make Duncan a non-factor.  Smart doesn’t make Curry a non-factor, either.

I'm trying to find the figures that someone posted after the game that showed Curry was ineffective when covered by Smart and did much better when covered by anyone else but having trouble finding which thread that was in.  in any case, that's were I'm at with what I consider 'elite'.  if you're happy with me switching my description of White's D to 'very good' then we'll call it a day.

I don't tend to have an issue with White's D since it's been the one part of his game that has been consistent since arriving here.  his offense, that's another story.

[Roy H.]

For whatever it’s worth, White has held to opponents to 38.4% shooting, which is -8.2 percentage points below normal production for the guys he’s guarding.  That percentage differential is second only to Horford.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612738&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

A quick look shows that White might lead all rotation guards in FG% differential.

[pokeKingCurtis]

People saying White will play 20 mins a game now that we have Brogdon...I feel are mistaken.

In my opinon, we have like 2 Dreymond types now - Smart and White. Neither put up huge numbers (well, Smart has kind of exploded this year), but will help the team win.

Pritchard feels like the odd man out here.

[slamtheking]

People saying White will play 20 mins a game now that we have Brogdon...I feel are mistaken.

In my opinon, we have like 2 Dreymond types now - Smart and White. Neither put up huge numbers (well, Smart has kind of exploded this year), but will help the team win.

Pritchard feels like the odd man out here.

I think minutes per game will be irrelevant.  Brogdan offers Ime more options behind Smart now.  after the trades last year, he had either White or PP to use.  if each were playing their typical capabilities last year it was basically and offense vs defense substitution.  When PP was having an off night, it was then a defense vs nothing option.  Brogdon is someone that can provide both off the bench - provided he's healthy. 

this season all 3 will get minutes because Brogdan's likely to miss games, White can provide defense and decent ball handling and decision making on offense and PP can provide offense off the bench if he finds his shot again.

to the point I've been making throughout the thread, we overpaid to get White.  His performance in the Finals drove that point home because we'd have gotten more production out of Richardson.  We essentially paid less to get Brogdan who is superior to White.  We'll see if White's offensive numbers improve to career averages this upcoming season as his supporters have been going on about (at least percentage-wise, I wouldn't expect the point totals to improve with likely less shots available but I really want to see if his percentages come back).

[Roy H.]

People saying White will play 20 mins a game now that we have Brogdon...I feel are mistaken.

In my opinon, we have like 2 Dreymond types now - Smart and White. Neither put up huge numbers (well, Smart has kind of exploded this year), but will help the team win.

Pritchard feels like the odd man out here.

I think minutes per game will be irrelevant.  Brogdan offers Ime more options behind Smart now.  after the trades last year, he had either White or PP to use.  if each were playing their typical capabilities last year it was basically and offense vs defense substitution.  When PP was having an off night, it was then a defense vs nothing option.  Brogdon is someone that can provide both off the bench - provided he's healthy. 

this season all 3 will get minutes because Brogdan's likely to miss games, White can provide defense and decent ball handling and decision making on offense and PP can provide offense off the bench if he finds his shot again.

to the point I've been making throughout the thread, we overpaid to get White.  His performance in the Finals drove that point home because we'd have gotten more production out of Richardson.  We essentially paid less to get Brogdan who is superior to White.  We'll see if White's offensive numbers improve to career averages this upcoming season as his supporters have been going on about (at least percentage-wise, I wouldn't expect the point totals to improve with likely less shots available but I really want to see if his percentages come back).

Yeah, I suspect that if Brad had the benefit of knowing he'd be able to get Brogdon, he never would have made the trade.  I think Richardson + Langford + #1 + swap would be a better fit with the roster we have now.

Tatum / Langford
Brown / Richardson
Smart / Brogdon

Tatum / ?
Brown / White
Smart / Brogdon

But, there are no do-overs.  I'm excited to see what type of defensive pressure White and Brogdon can bring off of the bench.

[Vermont Green]

People saying White will play 20 mins a game now that we have Brogdon...I feel are mistaken.

In my opinon, we have like 2 Dreymond types now - Smart and White. Neither put up huge numbers (well, Smart has kind of exploded this year), but will help the team win.

Pritchard feels like the odd man out here.

I think minutes per game will be irrelevant.  Brogdan offers Ime more options behind Smart now.  after the trades last year, he had either White or PP to use.  if each were playing their typical capabilities last year it was basically and offense vs defense substitution.  When PP was having an off night, it was then a defense vs nothing option.  Brogdon is someone that can provide both off the bench - provided he's healthy. 

this season all 3 will get minutes because Brogdan's likely to miss games, White can provide defense and decent ball handling and decision making on offense and PP can provide offense off the bench if he finds his shot again.

to the point I've been making throughout the thread, we overpaid to get White.  His performance in the Finals drove that point home because we'd have gotten more production out of Richardson.  We essentially paid less to get Brogdan who is superior to White.  We'll see if White's offensive numbers improve to career averages this upcoming season as his supporters have been going on about (at least percentage-wise, I wouldn't expect the point totals to improve with likely less shots available but I really want to see if his percentages come back).

Yeah, I suspect that if Brad had the benefit of knowing he'd be able to get Brogdon, he never would have made the trade.  I think Richardson + Langford + #1 + swap would be a better fit with the roster we have now.

Tatum / Langford
Brown / Richardson
Smart / Brogdon

Tatum / ?
Brown / White
Smart / Brogdon

But, there are no do-overs.  I'm excited to see what type of defensive pressure White and Brogdon can bring off of the bench.

I think penciling in Langford as a actual rotation SF is a stretch.  He might not even be as good as Hauser.  But it is fair to debate what could have been if we had not traded Richardson for White.  It come down to what is better:

Richardson + Brogdon or White + Brogdon

I am not sure it is clear which is better.  If hypothetically, we had done the Brogdon trade first, would we have still done the White trade?  I see Richardson as more of a wing and White as more of a combo guard so positionally, there is a little more need for Richardson now but I view White as the more valuable overall asset.

I think what is going to happen is that Brogdon is going to play mostly as the off guard/wing alongside one of Tatum or Brown with either Brown or Tatum being more of the traditional SF/Wing while Brogdon is out there and Smart or White being the "PG".  I doubt we will see much where Smart, White, and Brogdon are all on the court together but even that line up with say Gallinari and Horford is a perfectly workable line up.

We can work around the lack of a true bench wing so long as Brown and Tatum are both available.  If one of them is out, this thinness will be exposed and we will have to play Brogdon more as a wing.  In my view, Grant Williams is not a wing option.  We were terrible when we tried that last season.  Brogdon as a full time wing like Tatum or Brown is not ideal but not the end of the world either.

[slamtheking]

People saying White will play 20 mins a game now that we have Brogdon...I feel are mistaken.

In my opinon, we have like 2 Dreymond types now - Smart and White. Neither put up huge numbers (well, Smart has kind of exploded this year), but will help the team win.

Pritchard feels like the odd man out here.

I think minutes per game will be irrelevant.  Brogdan offers Ime more options behind Smart now.  after the trades last year, he had either White or PP to use.  if each were playing their typical capabilities last year it was basically and offense vs defense substitution.  When PP was having an off night, it was then a defense vs nothing option.  Brogdon is someone that can provide both off the bench - provided he's healthy. 

this season all 3 will get minutes because Brogdan's likely to miss games, White can provide defense and decent ball handling and decision making on offense and PP can provide offense off the bench if he finds his shot again.

to the point I've been making throughout the thread, we overpaid to get White.  His performance in the Finals drove that point home because we'd have gotten more production out of Richardson.  We essentially paid less to get Brogdan who is superior to White.  We'll see if White's offensive numbers improve to career averages this upcoming season as his supporters have been going on about (at least percentage-wise, I wouldn't expect the point totals to improve with likely less shots available but I really want to see if his percentages come back).

Yeah, I suspect that if Brad had the benefit of knowing he'd be able to get Brogdon, he never would have made the trade.  I think Richardson + Langford + #1 + swap would be a better fit with the roster we have now.

Tatum / Langford
Brown / Richardson
Smart / Brogdon

Tatum / ?
Brown / White
Smart / Brogdon

But, there are no do-overs.  I'm excited to see what type of defensive pressure White and Brogdon can bring off of the bench.

I'm bowled over at this change of opinion.  you were one of the people who most strongly disagreed with my take on this trade.

thing is, it's not just that White deal, it was the subsequent trade of Schroder and parts as well.  Having White made Schroder expendable so Brad was able to swing that second trade.  Granted we got Theis back in that deal and he certainly helped down the stretch when Timelord couldn't play but the end result in the finals is that White couldn't deliver what we needed which was essentially solid D, good ball handling and playmaking and decent offensive output which is what we likely would have gotten from Richardson at least (not all games but certainly more than just game 1) if not Romeo and Schroder as well. 

I wouldn't have anticipated getting Brogdon for what we did -- injuries have really knocked his value down (his contract is a lot for someone who can't get on the court often) but I do think it backs up my point of an overpay for White. 

water under the bridge at this point but I do hope that White can bounce back to what he was able to provide 2-3 seasons ago rather than what he produced last year.  I'd like to see Brad use that TPE before it expires to bring in a 4/5 and a 3&D wing but if not, perhaps another combo guard as insurance against White not bouncing back to his typical career play thus making him available for a deadline deal to fill whatever holes we have on the roster and to possibly cut the cap tax at the end of the year.

[Roy H.]

I'm bowled over at this change of opinion.  you were one of the people who most strongly disagreed with my take on this trade.

It's not a huge change in opinion, really.  At the time, I liked (didn't love) the White trade because we got a guy who could defend, penetrate and pass at a high level.  I thought the value was fair (a scrub, a late first, and a journeyman role player), other than the first round swap.

In hindsight, we now have less of a need for what White brings (defense, passing), because Brogdon does that equally well.  At the same time, we're lacking a bit of versatility at wing, and another #1 would be a nice asset when looking to upgrade the trade.  So, what we traded away currently has more value than it did last year, and what we got has less value.  But, for all I know, things could change again in three months.

[jambr380]

Fwiw, I believe that Brogdon can adequately play the wing. Like, we could have a line-up of Smart, White, and Brogdon at PG, SG, and SF and it really wouldn't hurt us much.

White seems like a really good guy, a hard worker, and somebody who will do whatever is asked of him for the benefit of the team; but I agree, his fit is not wonderful now with Brogdon here. His contract now stands out as a little on the overpaid side for what his role will actually be. Not really his fault since nobody knew we were bringing in Brogdon, but he is going to have to play out of his mind in order to play more than half of the game.

I didn't love the White trade at the time. Obviously still don't love it, but I don't think it is as much as a hinderance as others. Brogdon's ability to slide into the SF role will allow a lot of flexibility. Same with Gallo's ability to play 3 positions.

[slamtheking]

I'm bowled over at this change of opinion.  you were one of the people who most strongly disagreed with my take on this trade.

It's not a huge change in opinion, really.  At the time, I liked (didn't love) the White trade because we got a guy who could defend, penetrate and pass at a high level.  I thought the value was fair (a scrub, a late first, and a journeyman role player), other than the first round swap.

In hindsight, we now have less of a need for what White brings (defense, passing), because Brogdon does that equally well.  At the same time, we're lacking a bit of versatility at wing, and another #1 would be a nice asset when looking to upgrade the trade.  So, what we traded away currently has more value than it did last year, and what we got has less value. But, for all I know, things could change again in three months.

this was a key point I had been making.  by giving away as many assets as we did, we had less assets to make other deals.  Brad's disdain for first rounders will come back to bite the team in the butt if he keeps doling them out like candy at Halloween.

[Surferdad]

I'm bowled over at this change of opinion.  you were one of the people who most strongly disagreed with my take on this trade.

It's not a huge change in opinion, really.  At the time, I liked (didn't love) the White trade because we got a guy who could defend, penetrate and pass at a high level.  I thought the value was fair (a scrub, a late first, and a journeyman role player), other than the first round swap.

In hindsight, we now have less of a need for what White brings (defense, passing), because Brogdon does that equally well.  At the same time, we're lacking a bit of versatility at wing, and another #1 would be a nice asset when looking to upgrade the trade.  So, what we traded away currently has more value than it did last year, and what we got has less value. But, for all I know, things could change again in three months.

this was a key point I had been making.  by giving away as many assets as we did, we had less assets to make other deals.  Brad's disdain for first rounders will come back to bite the team in the butt if he keeps doling them out like candy at Halloween.

Maybe not since the league has a rule that disallows not making a 1st round choice every other year.  This is to protect itself from itself, I guess.

[slamtheking]

I'm bowled over at this change of opinion.  you were one of the people who most strongly disagreed with my take on this trade.

It's not a huge change in opinion, really.  At the time, I liked (didn't love) the White trade because we got a guy who could defend, penetrate and pass at a high level.  I thought the value was fair (a scrub, a late first, and a journeyman role player), other than the first round swap.

In hindsight, we now have less of a need for what White brings (defense, passing), because Brogdon does that equally well.  At the same time, we're lacking a bit of versatility at wing, and another #1 would be a nice asset when looking to upgrade the trade.  So, what we traded away currently has more value than it did last year, and what we got has less value. But, for all I know, things could change again in three months.

this was a key point I had been making.  by giving away as many assets as we did, we had less assets to make other deals.  Brad's disdain for first rounders will come back to bite the team in the butt if he keeps doling them out like candy at Halloween.

Maybe not since the league has a rule that disallows not making a 1st round choice every other year.  This is to protect itself from itself, I guess.

whether he does it every year before the draft or in multiple years skipping a year in between only to dole one out the year he didn't already trade away, he's developing a pattern of dismissing the picks as a low value asset.  a pick and a swap involved for White.  Another first given up for Brogdon (who if healthy I have less issue with but his health is no guarantee based on recent history)

[Goldstar88]

I'm bowled over at this change of opinion.  you were one of the people who most strongly disagreed with my take on this trade.

It's not a huge change in opinion, really.  At the time, I liked (didn't love) the White trade because we got a guy who could defend, penetrate and pass at a high level.  I thought the value was fair (a scrub, a late first, and a journeyman role player), other than the first round swap.

In hindsight, we now have less of a need for what White brings (defense, passing), because Brogdon does that equally well.  At the same time, we're lacking a bit of versatility at wing, and another #1 would be a nice asset when looking to upgrade the trade.  So, what we traded away currently has more value than it did last year, and what we got has less value. But, for all I know, things could change again in three months.

this was a key point I had been making.  by giving away as many assets as we did, we had less assets to make other deals.  Brad's disdain for first rounders will come back to bite the team in the butt if he keeps doling them out like candy at Halloween.

Brad Is trying to win a championship now. If a player becomes available that Brad think’s can help achieve that goal, he’s pulling the trigger .You can’t get quality players without giving up assets. The White trade was an overpay IMO, But sometimes that’s what you have to do in order to secure a piece of the roster puzzle. The Spurs received the 25th pick from the Celtics in this years draft and it’s highly unlikely that the player drafted turns out to be as good as D-White. Same thing with next years pick that Boston traded to Indiana. Many are anticipating that the C’s will win close to 60 games this coming season, and if that ends up being the case, it’s going to a very late pick in the first round. Give me the established player in a trade every day of the week when we are contending for championships. Brad may have overpaid somewhat for White, but he underpaid for Brogdon, so it evens out.

[td450]

Fwiw, I believe that Brogdon can adequately play the wing. Like, we could have a line-up of Smart, White, and Brogdon at PG, SG, and SF and it really wouldn't hurt us much.

White seems like a really good guy, a hard worker, and somebody who will do whatever is asked of him for the benefit of the team; but I agree, his fit is not wonderful now with Brogdon here. His contract now stands out as a little on the overpaid side for what his role will actually be. Not really his fault since nobody knew we were bringing in Brogdon, but he is going to have to play out of his mind in order to play more than half of the game.

I didn't love the White trade at the time. Obviously still don't love it, but I don't think it is as much as a hinderance as others. Brogdon's ability to slide into the SF role will allow a lot of flexibility. Same with Gallo's ability to play 3 positions.

The team needed to improve ball handling. We now have 3 guards who are all can be interchanged in the same defensive schemes and help promote more ball movement and hopefully reduce turnovers. We probably will want two of them in the game most of the time. I expect the 3 to consume about 75 minutes (Smart- 30/Brogdon - 25/White - 20).

We get that better ball handling with quality players. Pritchard can't give us that, especially in the playoffs. Sorry that White is expensive for a 3rd guard, but that was the marginal improvement the team needed and you can't cheat that.

[Vermont Green]

I'm bowled over at this change of opinion.  you were one of the people who most strongly disagreed with my take on this trade.

It's not a huge change in opinion, really.  At the time, I liked (didn't love) the White trade because we got a guy who could defend, penetrate and pass at a high level.  I thought the value was fair (a scrub, a late first, and a journeyman role player), other than the first round swap.

In hindsight, we now have less of a need for what White brings (defense, passing), because Brogdon does that equally well.  At the same time, we're lacking a bit of versatility at wing, and another #1 would be a nice asset when looking to upgrade the trade.  So, what we traded away currently has more value than it did last year, and what we got has less value. But, for all I know, things could change again in three months.

this was a key point I had been making.  by giving away as many assets as we did, we had less assets to make other deals.  Brad's disdain for first rounders will come back to bite the team in the butt if he keeps doling them out like candy at Halloween.

Brad Is trying to win a championship now. If a player becomes available that Brad think’s can help achieve that goal, he’s pulling the trigger .You can’t get quality players without giving up assets. The White trade was an overpay IMO, But sometimes that’s what you have to do in order to secure a piece of the roster puzzle. The Spurs received the 25th pick from the Celtics in this years draft and it’s highly unlikely that the player drafted turns out to be as good as D-White. Same thing with next years pick that Boston traded to Indian. Many are anticipating that the C’s will win close to 60 games this coming season, and if that ends up being the case, it’s going to a very late pick in the first round. Give me the established player in a trade every day of the week when we are contending for championships. Brad may have overpaid somewhat for White, but he underpaid for Brogdon, so it evens out.

In Economics, they call this Opportunity Cost.  If you trade an asset like a pick in a deal, you have given up the opportunity to use it in another deal.    It is true when you trade a baseball prospect, it is true when you trade a basketball draft pick, it is also true when you use your MLE on a player.

That is why you can always debate various moves.  We use our MLE on Gallinari but maybe if we held out, we could of gotten TJ Warren.  Maybe if we didn't use that pick on White, we could have used it on [fill in the blank].  Every move you make has an opportunity cost associated with it.  The Derrick White deal is no exception. 

I will say that it feels like you get more for the draft picks as picks than you do if you trade after the pick is made.  Take Langford and Nesmith as examples.  They were higher picks than the picks given up in the White and Brogdon deals.  We give up picks in the high 20s and people groan about it.  We trade players taken in the mid-Teens and people deem them throw ins.  That is not always the case of course but I think Brad got good value for the picks trading them as picks.