Celts get Derrick White for Richardson, Langford, #1, 2028 pick swap

[nickagneta]

Non top 5 draft picks are like new cars....as soon as you buy them/use them, once you drive them off the lot/start to play them, they lose all kinds of value.

[Who]

Fwiw, I believe that Brogdon can adequately play the wing. Like, we could have a line-up of Smart, White, and Brogdon at PG, SG, and SF and it really wouldn't hurt us much.

White seems like a really good guy, a hard worker, and somebody who will do whatever is asked of him for the benefit of the team; but I agree, his fit is not wonderful now with Brogdon here. His contract now stands out as a little on the overpaid side for what his role will actually be. Not really his fault since nobody knew we were bringing in Brogdon, but he is going to have to play out of his mind in order to play more than half of the game.

I didn't love the White trade at the time. Obviously still don't love it, but I don't think it is as much as a hinderance as others. Brogdon's ability to slide into the SF role will allow a lot of flexibility. Same with Gallo's ability to play 3 positions.

The team needed to improve ball handling. We now have 3 guards who are all can be interchanged in the same defensive schemes and help promote more ball movement and hopefully reduce turnovers. We probably will want two of them in the game most of the time. I expect the 3 to consume about 75 minutes (Smart- 30/Brogdon - 25/White - 20).

We get that better ball handling with quality players. Pritchard can't give us that, especially in the playoffs. Sorry that White is expensive for a 3rd guard, but that was the marginal improvement the team needed and you can't cheat that.

One of the teams I found very interesting was the 2013 NY Knicks. The only good Carmelo Anthony team in NYC. And one of the qualities I appreciated the most about that group was its backcourt.

They switched to a three PG backcourt with Jason Kidd, Raymond Felton and Pablo Prigioni. These three helped NY lead the league in avoiding turnovers on offense. They kept everyone involved despite the best efforts of selfishness by Melo, Amare or JR Smith. And Kidd and Prigioni provided defensive impetus on the perimeter to combine with Tyson Chandler in the paint to make them a good defensive team.

That was the only 50 win team Melo's Knicks had. The only Melo Knicks team that won a playoff series and I think only 2nd season in Melo's entire career he won a playoff series (2009 WCF run with Billups guiding the team).

But I was always fascinated by the guard (PG) contribution of that team. Old Kidd, solid Raymond Felton and 3rd stringer Pablo Prigioni. They brought a great calming effect and unity to that team with their ball-handling, passing and teamwork.

Now we have the same thing here only with younger more talented players at the helm. Smart, D White and Brogdon. Exciting times. 

[Roy H.]

Non top 5 draft picks are like new cars....as soon as you buy them/use them, once you drive them off the lot/start to play them, they lose all kinds of value.

Until Covid-19.  Now, some of those cars are retaining 96% of their value three years later, lol.

[td450]

Non top 5 draft picks are like new cars....as soon as you buy them/use them, once you drive them off the lot/start to play them, they lose all kinds of value.

There are 30 teams that need stocking so while there are a lot of misses in the draft, there has to be a lot of hits too. So #14 could be a Romeo and it could be Bam Adebayo. I'm not sure that many GM's have a mathematically valid way of assessing pick value.

It gets particularly complex when you consider the ability of a given team to provide minutes and craft roles to optimize development, which often doesn't happen and can be difficult to predict. I think we failed to do this with Nesmith.

I'm pretty confident Langford is a fringe player, but I'm not sure about Nesmith at all. I would have given him almost all of Pritchard's minutes last year to find out, but that's just me. I'm still happy with the trade, but if Nesmith turns into a quality 2 way wing, this will hurt a bit.

I do appreciate that Stevens has accepted that the roster is badly suited to mid/late-level pick rookie development right now, so why keep those assets? In the end you need to have a consistent strategy.

[Celtics4ever]

Fact is without White, we would not have beaten the Heat.    He got hot and won us a game or two.  Sure he was all over the place in other series and bad in the finals to some degree.

[Goldstar88]

I'm bowled over at this change of opinion.  you were one of the people who most strongly disagreed with my take on this trade.

It's not a huge change in opinion, really.  At the time, I liked (didn't love) the White trade because we got a guy who could defend, penetrate and pass at a high level.  I thought the value was fair (a scrub, a late first, and a journeyman role player), other than the first round swap.

In hindsight, we now have less of a need for what White brings (defense, passing), because Brogdon does that equally well.  At the same time, we're lacking a bit of versatility at wing, and another #1 would be a nice asset when looking to upgrade the trade.  So, what we traded away currently has more value than it did last year, and what we got has less value. But, for all I know, things could change again in three months.

this was a key point I had been making.  by giving away as many assets as we did, we had less assets to make other deals.  Brad's disdain for first rounders will come back to bite the team in the butt if he keeps doling them out like candy at Halloween.

Brad Is trying to win a championship now. If a player becomes available that Brad think’s can help achieve that goal, he’s pulling the trigger .You can’t get quality players without giving up assets. The White trade was an overpay IMO, But sometimes that’s what you have to do in order to secure a piece of the roster puzzle. The Spurs received the 25th pick from the Celtics in this years draft and it’s highly unlikely that the player drafted turns out to be as good as D-White. Same thing with next years pick that Boston traded to Indian. Many are anticipating that the C’s will win close to 60 games this coming season, and if that ends up being the case, it’s going to a very late pick in the first round. Give me the established player in a trade every day of the week when we are contending for championships. Brad may have overpaid somewhat for White, but he underpaid for Brogdon, so it evens out.

In Economics, they call this Opportunity Cost.  If you trade an asset like a pick in a deal, you have given up the opportunity to use it in another deal.    It is true when you trade a baseball prospect, it is true when you trade a basketball draft pick, it is also true when you use your MLE on a player.

That is why you can always debate various moves.  We use our MLE on Gallinari but maybe if we held out, we could of gotten TJ Warren.  Maybe if we didn't use that pick on White, we could have used it on [fill in the blank].  Every move you make has an opportunity cost associated with it.  The Derrick White deal is no exception. 

I will say that it feels like you get more for the draft picks as picks than you do if you trade after the pick is made.  Take Langford and Nesmith as examples.  They were higher picks than the picks given up in the White and Brogdon deals.  We give up picks in the high 20s and people groan about it.  We trade players taken in the mid-Teens and people deem them throw ins.  That is not always the case of course but I think Brad got good value for the picks trading them as picks.

Right, but but Brad can’t wait around for a better deal to potentially materialize. I think Danny did this often and he overvalued the late 1st rounders. The majority of the picks in the 20+ range turned out to be duds anyway.

Same with the MLE, I’d much rather have Warren, but you can’t wait around for him to make a decision if there is another player  available that could also help your team. Have to pull the trigger, Otherwise you could end up missing out on both.

[BitterJim]

Fact is without White, we would not have beaten the Heat.    He got hot and won us a game or two.  Sure he was all over the place in other series and bad in the finals to some degree.

Agreed. And without the White deal/making the finals there's no guarantee that the Celtics still decide to go for it this summer and make the Brogdan deal.

I'd love to have Richardson back right now, but not if it meant not having White.

[Vermont Green]

I'm bowled over at this change of opinion.  you were one of the people who most strongly disagreed with my take on this trade.

It's not a huge change in opinion, really.  At the time, I liked (didn't love) the White trade because we got a guy who could defend, penetrate and pass at a high level.  I thought the value was fair (a scrub, a late first, and a journeyman role player), other than the first round swap.

In hindsight, we now have less of a need for what White brings (defense, passing), because Brogdon does that equally well.  At the same time, we're lacking a bit of versatility at wing, and another #1 would be a nice asset when looking to upgrade the trade.  So, what we traded away currently has more value than it did last year, and what we got has less value. But, for all I know, things could change again in three months.

this was a key point I had been making.  by giving away as many assets as we did, we had less assets to make other deals.  Brad's disdain for first rounders will come back to bite the team in the butt if he keeps doling them out like candy at Halloween.

Brad Is trying to win a championship now. If a player becomes available that Brad think’s can help achieve that goal, he’s pulling the trigger .You can’t get quality players without giving up assets. The White trade was an overpay IMO, But sometimes that’s what you have to do in order to secure a piece of the roster puzzle. The Spurs received the 25th pick from the Celtics in this years draft and it’s highly unlikely that the player drafted turns out to be as good as D-White. Same thing with next years pick that Boston traded to Indian. Many are anticipating that the C’s will win close to 60 games this coming season, and if that ends up being the case, it’s going to a very late pick in the first round. Give me the established player in a trade every day of the week when we are contending for championships. Brad may have overpaid somewhat for White, but he underpaid for Brogdon, so it evens out.

In Economics, they call this Opportunity Cost.  If you trade an asset like a pick in a deal, you have given up the opportunity to use it in another deal.    It is true when you trade a baseball prospect, it is true when you trade a basketball draft pick, it is also true when you use your MLE on a player.

That is why you can always debate various moves.  We use our MLE on Gallinari but maybe if we held out, we could of gotten TJ Warren.  Maybe if we didn't use that pick on White, we could have used it on [fill in the blank].  Every move you make has an opportunity cost associated with it.  The Derrick White deal is no exception. 

I will say that it feels like you get more for the draft picks as picks than you do if you trade after the pick is made.  Take Langford and Nesmith as examples.  They were higher picks than the picks given up in the White and Brogdon deals.  We give up picks in the high 20s and people groan about it.  We trade players taken in the mid-Teens and people deem them throw ins.  That is not always the case of course but I think Brad got good value for the picks trading them as picks.

Right, but but Brad can’t wait around for a better deal to potentially materialize. I think Danny did this often and he overvalued the late 1st rounders. The majority of the picks in the 20+ range turned out to be duds anyway.

Same with the MLE, I’d much rather have Warren, but you can’t wait around for him to make a decision if there is another player  available that could also help your team. Have to pull the trigger, Otherwise you could end up missing out on both.

Exactly, those are the "Big Bucks" decisions that GM need to make.  I am fine with everything that Stevens has done but you know that along the way, there are going to be deals he does and then some time later someone else lands an even better deal and there will be complaining from the fans (possibly including me).  Some draft pick he trades is going to blossom unexpectedly into a star but people will be saying they were against the trade all along because they like the draft pick (cough cough Desmond Bane).

As I said, so far, Stevens has been pretty savvy.  The White trade is probably his worst trade and that trade wasn't even bad in my opinion.

[Goldstar88]

I'm bowled over at this change of opinion.  you were one of the people who most strongly disagreed with my take on this trade.

It's not a huge change in opinion, really.  At the time, I liked (didn't love) the White trade because we got a guy who could defend, penetrate and pass at a high level.  I thought the value was fair (a scrub, a late first, and a journeyman role player), other than the first round swap.

In hindsight, we now have less of a need for what White brings (defense, passing), because Brogdon does that equally well.  At the same time, we're lacking a bit of versatility at wing, and another #1 would be a nice asset when looking to upgrade the trade.  So, what we traded away currently has more value than it did last year, and what we got has less value. But, for all I know, things could change again in three months.

this was a key point I had been making.  by giving away as many assets as we did, we had less assets to make other deals.  Brad's disdain for first rounders will come back to bite the team in the butt if he keeps doling them out like candy at Halloween.

Brad Is trying to win a championship now. If a player becomes available that Brad think’s can help achieve that goal, he’s pulling the trigger .You can’t get quality players without giving up assets. The White trade was an overpay IMO, But sometimes that’s what you have to do in order to secure a piece of the roster puzzle. The Spurs received the 25th pick from the Celtics in this years draft and it’s highly unlikely that the player drafted turns out to be as good as D-White. Same thing with next years pick that Boston traded to Indian. Many are anticipating that the C’s will win close to 60 games this coming season, and if that ends up being the case, it’s going to a very late pick in the first round. Give me the established player in a trade every day of the week when we are contending for championships. Brad may have overpaid somewhat for White, but he underpaid for Brogdon, so it evens out.

In Economics, they call this Opportunity Cost.  If you trade an asset like a pick in a deal, you have given up the opportunity to use it in another deal.    It is true when you trade a baseball prospect, it is true when you trade a basketball draft pick, it is also true when you use your MLE on a player.

That is why you can always debate various moves.  We use our MLE on Gallinari but maybe if we held out, we could of gotten TJ Warren.  Maybe if we didn't use that pick on White, we could have used it on [fill in the blank].  Every move you make has an opportunity cost associated with it.  The Derrick White deal is no exception. 

I will say that it feels like you get more for the draft picks as picks than you do if you trade after the pick is made.  Take Langford and Nesmith as examples.  They were higher picks than the picks given up in the White and Brogdon deals.  We give up picks in the high 20s and people groan about it.  We trade players taken in the mid-Teens and people deem them throw ins.  That is not always the case of course but I think Brad got good value for the picks trading them as picks.

Right, but but Brad can’t wait around for a better deal to potentially materialize. I think Danny did this often and he overvalued the late 1st rounders. The majority of the picks in the 20+ range turned out to be duds anyway.

Same with the MLE, I’d much rather have Warren, but you can’t wait around for him to make a decision if there is another player  available that could also help your team. Have to pull the trigger, Otherwise you could end up missing out on both.

Exactly, those are the "Big Bucks" decisions that GM need to make.  I am fine with everything that Stevens has done but you know that along the way, there are going to be deals he does and then some time later someone else lands an even better deal and there will be complaining from the fans (possibly including me).  Some draft pick he trades is going to blossom unexpectedly into a star but people will be saying they were against the trade all along because they like the draft pick (cough cough Desmond Bane).

As I said, so far, Stevens has been pretty savvy.  The White trade is probably his worst trade and that trade wasn't even bad in my opinion.

The pick swap for 2028 is the only issue with the White Trade, IMO. Not sold on the Gallo signing either, but other than that, Brad’s decision making has been impeccable.

[pokeKingCurtis]

I'm bowled over at this change of opinion.  you were one of the people who most strongly disagreed with my take on this trade.

It's not a huge change in opinion, really.  At the time, I liked (didn't love) the White trade because we got a guy who could defend, penetrate and pass at a high level.  I thought the value was fair (a scrub, a late first, and a journeyman role player), other than the first round swap.

In hindsight, we now have less of a need for what White brings (defense, passing), because Brogdon does that equally well.  At the same time, we're lacking a bit of versatility at wing, and another #1 would be a nice asset when looking to upgrade the trade.  So, what we traded away currently has more value than it did last year, and what we got has less value. But, for all I know, things could change again in three months.

this was a key point I had been making.  by giving away as many assets as we did, we had less assets to make other deals.  Brad's disdain for first rounders will come back to bite the team in the butt if he keeps doling them out like candy at Halloween.

Brad Is trying to win a championship now. If a player becomes available that Brad think’s can help achieve that goal, he’s pulling the trigger .You can’t get quality players without giving up assets. The White trade was an overpay IMO, But sometimes that’s what you have to do in order to secure a piece of the roster puzzle. The Spurs received the 25th pick from the Celtics in this years draft and it’s highly unlikely that the player drafted turns out to be as good as D-White. Same thing with next years pick that Boston traded to Indian. Many are anticipating that the C’s will win close to 60 games this coming season, and if that ends up being the case, it’s going to a very late pick in the first round. Give me the established player in a trade every day of the week when we are contending for championships. Brad may have overpaid somewhat for White, but he underpaid for Brogdon, so it evens out.

In Economics, they call this Opportunity Cost.  If you trade an asset like a pick in a deal, you have given up the opportunity to use it in another deal.    It is true when you trade a baseball prospect, it is true when you trade a basketball draft pick, it is also true when you use your MLE on a player.

That is why you can always debate various moves.  We use our MLE on Gallinari but maybe if we held out, we could of gotten TJ Warren.  Maybe if we didn't use that pick on White, we could have used it on [fill in the blank].  Every move you make has an opportunity cost associated with it.  The Derrick White deal is no exception. 

I will say that it feels like you get more for the draft picks as picks than you do if you trade after the pick is made.  Take Langford and Nesmith as examples.  They were higher picks than the picks given up in the White and Brogdon deals.  We give up picks in the high 20s and people groan about it.  We trade players taken in the mid-Teens and people deem them throw ins.  That is not always the case of course but I think Brad got good value for the picks trading them as picks.

I think this is also known as sunk cost?

But nonetheless all relating to optics.

Edit: not all relating to optics, but significantly relating to optics.

[pokeKingCurtis]

People saying White will play 20 mins a game now that we have Brogdon...I feel are mistaken.

In my opinon, we have like 2 Dreymond types now - Smart and White. Neither put up huge numbers (well, Smart has kind of exploded this year), but will help the team win.

Pritchard feels like the odd man out here.

I think minutes per game will be irrelevant.  Brogdan offers Ime more options behind Smart now.  after the trades last year, he had either White or PP to use.  if each were playing their typical capabilities last year it was basically and offense vs defense substitution.  When PP was having an off night, it was then a defense vs nothing option.  Brogdon is someone that can provide both off the bench - provided he's healthy. 

this season all 3 will get minutes because Brogdan's likely to miss games, White can provide defense and decent ball handling and decision making on offense and PP can provide offense off the bench if he finds his shot again.

to the point I've been making throughout the thread, we overpaid to get White.  His performance in the Finals drove that point home because we'd have gotten more production out of Richardson.  We essentially paid less to get Brogdan who is superior to White.  We'll see if White's offensive numbers improve to career averages this upcoming season as his supporters have been going on about (at least percentage-wise, I wouldn't expect the point totals to improve with likely less shots available but I really want to see if his percentages come back).

Yeah, I suspect that if Brad had the benefit of knowing he'd be able to get Brogdon, he never would have made the trade.  I think Richardson + Langford + #1 + swap would be a better fit with the roster we have now.

Tatum / Langford
Brown / Richardson
Smart / Brogdon

Tatum / ?
Brown / White
Smart / Brogdon

But, there are no do-overs.  I'm excited to see what type of defensive pressure White and Brogdon can bring off of the bench.

I'm bowled over at this change of opinion.  you were one of the people who most strongly disagreed with my take on this trade.

thing is, it's not just that White deal, it was the subsequent trade of Schroder and parts as well.  Having White made Schroder expendable so Brad was able to swing that second trade.  Granted we got Theis back in that deal and he certainly helped down the stretch when Timelord couldn't play but the end result in the finals is that White couldn't deliver what we needed which was essentially solid D, good ball handling and playmaking and decent offensive output which is what we likely would have gotten from Richardson at least (not all games but certainly more than just game 1) if not Romeo and Schroder as well. 

I wouldn't have anticipated getting Brogdon for what we did -- injuries have really knocked his value down (his contract is a lot for someone who can't get on the court often) but I do think it backs up my point of an overpay for White. 

water under the bridge at this point but I do hope that White can bounce back to what he was able to provide 2-3 seasons ago rather than what he produced last year.  I'd like to see Brad use that TPE before it expires to bring in a 4/5 and a 3&D wing but if not, perhaps another combo guard as insurance against White not bouncing back to his typical career play thus making him available for a deadline deal to fill whatever holes we have on the roster and to possibly cut the cap tax at the end of the year.

Interesting to see the White = defense; Payton = offense analysis. And interesting thoughts here all round. TP both.

But I agree with your subsequent comment here, slamking. I hope White bounces back, and I feel like he will.

Advanced stats wise, he was really good, especially on D. Often times the raw stats production and eye test catches up I feel (like Jae Crowder). He's pretty talented (lengthy wing ballhandler who's shot well in past).

Brogdon's addition could end up being a bit like Iggy to the Dubs in his first stint. Maybe White will be similar. But I think there's a good chance they could be even more...maybe the Dubs' Livingston? So 2 6th men.

[GreenlyGreeny]

Non top 5 draft picks are like new cars....as soon as you buy them/use them, once you drive them off the lot/start to play them, they lose all kinds of value.

🤣 TP for this brilliant analogy.

I’d say the foremost value of an unprotected pick is having a shot at a top five pick. If rebuilding, get as many picks/swaps as possible and tank as badly as possible in order to have the highest odds possible of getting top five picks. Top five picks are how you truly add superstar potential probably 9 of 10 times, if not 19 of 20: Sometimes you get lucky at 6-14, sometimes you get super lucky outside the lottery, sometimes you get lucky in a trade, and other times you are successful at recruiting a superstar in free agency. But most of the time, you get a superstar via a top five pick (and even then luck plays a role unless you have the number one overall pick with a can’t miss prospect like LeBron circa 2003 or Magic circa 1979)

[vjcsmoke]

I'm not losing sleep over the pick we gave up for White.  I mean we made the Finals so the sum of Brad Stevens moves including trading for White, Horford, and hiring Ime Udoka brought us to the Finals.

I'm good with that.  And who knows if White isn't the answer for us, it doesn't mean that he doesn't hold trade value, maybe we swap him for a better fitting piece at the trade deadline.  Derrick White is signed through 2025 at just 17m/year so the team control he represents could be attractive to another team down the road if that team has a star who gets disgruntled and wants to leave.

[ozgod]

Non top 5 draft picks are like new cars....as soon as you buy them/use them, once you drive them off the lot/start to play them, they lose all kinds of value.

Until Covid-19.  Now, some of those cars are retaining 96% of their value three years later, lol.

Amazingly some are worth more than they were when they were bought 3 years ago. 

[C3LTSF4N]

Non top 5 draft picks are like new cars....as soon as you buy them/use them, once you drive them off the lot/start to play them, they lose all kinds of value.

Until Covid-19.  Now, some of those cars are retaining 96% of their value three years later, lol.

Amazingly some are worth more than they were when they were bought 3 years ago. 

I have one worth 95% of what it was brand new over 4 years ago, it’s craziness