Celts get Derrick White for Richardson, Langford, #1, 2028 pick swap

[nickagneta]

After a really good game 1, White's back to playing how he did in the regular season (which I thought was ok at best and not good enough to justify the cost of the trade).   

Games 2-4 in the finals --> -17 in Game 2 (only player with a worse number was Tatum at -36), 4-13 with only 2 assists and 3 TOs; -12 in Game 3 (the only Celtic with a "-"), 3-9 with 2 assist and 1 TO; -19 ('led' the team in that category) in Game 4, 4-12 with 1 asst and 3 TOs. 

just not getting it done.  people all season liked to bring up his +/-  just take attention from his shooting woes but now he's not even able to support that argument

Single game +/- is one of the least useful stats in basketball

it typically is.  we're talking 3 games in a row where he's either got the worst number in that stat for the team or next to worst

He was also 41.7% from three and averaged 12 points a game giving the Celtics much needed bench scoring. You're obviously only looking for stats that fit your narrative and refuse to look at the positives including his elite defense in this series.

[slamtheking]

After a really good game 1, White's back to playing how he did in the regular season (which I thought was ok at best and not good enough to justify the cost of the trade).   

Games 2-4 in the finals --> -17 in Game 2 (only player with a worse number was Tatum at -36), 4-13 with only 2 assists and 3 TOs; -12 in Game 3 (the only Celtic with a "-"), 3-9 with 2 assist and 1 TO; -19 ('led' the team in that category) in Game 4, 4-12 with 1 asst and 3 TOs. 

just not getting it done.  people all season liked to bring up his +/-  just take attention from his shooting woes but now he's not even able to support that argument

Single game +/- is one of the least useful stats in basketball

it typically is.  we're talking 3 games in a row where he's either got the worst number in that stat for the team or next to worst

He was also 41.7% from three and averaged 12 points a game giving the Celtics much needed bench scoring. You're obviously only looking for stats that fit your narrative and refuse to look at the positives including his elite defense in this series.

again, not playing elite D.  solid D, sure.  8-36 in games 2-4 -- which is 75% of the games is not cherry picking stats by any means Nick.  it's less than 25% shooting from the floor. 

[Roy H.]

If "elite" is confined to DPOY candidates, then there's got to be a category between "elite" and "solid".  White's defense is way better than "solid".

[Phantom255x]

White needs to make better decisions the rest of this series.

He was a +25 in Game 1, but then Games 2-4 is a combined -48. OOF. I know +/- is a bit of a flawed metric but I think it reflects White this series pretty well too. He's been doing well defensively still which is nice but hasn't done much else well. The turnovers in particular have been killer especially the ones he had in Game 4.

I do believe in White and think he can bounceback in Game 5. His 3 point shot is falling, just need to draw some more good open looks for him too.

[Big333223]

White needs to make better decisions the rest of this series.

He was a +25 in Game 1, but then Games 2-4 is a combined -48. OOF. I know +/- is a bit of a flawed metric but I think it reflects White this series pretty well too. He's been doing well defensively still which is nice but hasn't done much else well. The turnovers in particular have been killer especially the ones he had in Game 4.

I do believe in White and think he can bounceback in Game 5. His 3 point shot is falling, just need to draw some more good open looks for him too.

I trust White's decision making with the ball a lot more than Tatum and Smart, this series.

[gouki88]

After a really good game 1, White's back to playing how he did in the regular season (which I thought was ok at best and not good enough to justify the cost of the trade).   

Games 2-4 in the finals --> -17 in Game 2 (only player with a worse number was Tatum at -36), 4-13 with only 2 assists and 3 TOs; -12 in Game 3 (the only Celtic with a "-"), 3-9 with 2 assist and 1 TO; -19 ('led' the team in that category) in Game 4, 4-12 with 1 asst and 3 TOs. 

just not getting it done.  people all season liked to bring up his +/-  just take attention from his shooting woes but now he's not even able to support that argument

Single game +/- is one of the least useful stats in basketball

it typically is.  we're talking 3 games in a row where he's either got the worst number in that stat for the team or next to worst

He was also 41.7% from three and averaged 12 points a game giving the Celtics much needed bench scoring. You're obviously only looking for stats that fit your narrative and refuse to look at the positives including his elite defense in this series.

again, not playing elite D.  solid D, sure.  8-36 in games 2-4 -- which is 75% of the games is not cherry picking stats by any means Nick.  it's less than 25% shooting from the floor.

By your weird definition of elite D, many of the best guard defenders in history were not "elite".

See how silly that is?

[Phantom255x]

White needs to make better decisions the rest of this series.

He was a +25 in Game 1, but then Games 2-4 is a combined -48. OOF. I know +/- is a bit of a flawed metric but I think it reflects White this series pretty well too. He's been doing well defensively still which is nice but hasn't done much else well. The turnovers in particular have been killer especially the ones he had in Game 4.

I do believe in White and think he can bounceback in Game 5. His 3 point shot is falling, just need to draw some more good open looks for him too.

I trust White's decision making with the ball a lot more than Tatum and Smart, this series.

For sure, the problem is White also struggled in Game 4 which made things way more difficult lol

[slamtheking]

If "elite" is confined to DPOY candidates, then there's got to be a category between "elite" and "solid".  White's defense is way better than "solid".

fine, I'll promote him to "really good".  happy?

[slamtheking]

After a really good game 1, White's back to playing how he did in the regular season (which I thought was ok at best and not good enough to justify the cost of the trade).   

Games 2-4 in the finals --> -17 in Game 2 (only player with a worse number was Tatum at -36), 4-13 with only 2 assists and 3 TOs; -12 in Game 3 (the only Celtic with a "-"), 3-9 with 2 assist and 1 TO; -19 ('led' the team in that category) in Game 4, 4-12 with 1 asst and 3 TOs. 

just not getting it done.  people all season liked to bring up his +/-  just take attention from his shooting woes but now he's not even able to support that argument

Single game +/- is one of the least useful stats in basketball

it typically is.  we're talking 3 games in a row where he's either got the worst number in that stat for the team or next to worst

He was also 41.7% from three and averaged 12 points a game giving the Celtics much needed bench scoring. You're obviously only looking for stats that fit your narrative and refuse to look at the positives including his elite defense in this series.

again, not playing elite D.  solid D, sure.  8-36 in games 2-4 -- which is 75% of the games is not cherry picking stats by any means Nick.  it's less than 25% shooting from the floor.

By your weird definition of elite D, many of the best guard defenders in history were not "elite".

See how silly that is?

really?  point out where I defined it so I know what you think is "weird"

here's my definition of elite --> smothering defensive pressure that shuts down (shooting and passing) whoever is being defended by the player.  By shut down, I'm talking making that player a non-factor on offense.  no one is good enough to completely stop a top player from scoring but an elite defender makes that player a non-factor in the offensive scheme.

What Smart did in the last game to whomever he guarded -- those figures are elite.  White is not shutting down a GSW player but he is making them work hard for any scores for the most part.  He's not committing stupid fouls, he's typically in good defensive position to impact a play when he should.  That's solid or for Roy's benefit - Really Good.

Offensively, particularly his shooting, I've maintained that other than a couple of games against Miami and the first game against GSW, he hasn't delivered.  in the last game, his normally good ball handling and smart passing were neither good nor smart.  I'll go along with those 2 things being outliers and would think he'll be back to doing well in those regards in game 5.  as far as his shooting goes, I really hope for a replay of game 1 but I just have no basis for that optimism.

[gouki88]

After a really good game 1, White's back to playing how he did in the regular season (which I thought was ok at best and not good enough to justify the cost of the trade).   

Games 2-4 in the finals --> -17 in Game 2 (only player with a worse number was Tatum at -36), 4-13 with only 2 assists and 3 TOs; -12 in Game 3 (the only Celtic with a "-"), 3-9 with 2 assist and 1 TO; -19 ('led' the team in that category) in Game 4, 4-12 with 1 asst and 3 TOs. 

just not getting it done.  people all season liked to bring up his +/-  just take attention from his shooting woes but now he's not even able to support that argument

Single game +/- is one of the least useful stats in basketball

it typically is.  we're talking 3 games in a row where he's either got the worst number in that stat for the team or next to worst

He was also 41.7% from three and averaged 12 points a game giving the Celtics much needed bench scoring. You're obviously only looking for stats that fit your narrative and refuse to look at the positives including his elite defense in this series.

again, not playing elite D.  solid D, sure.  8-36 in games 2-4 -- which is 75% of the games is not cherry picking stats by any means Nick.  it's less than 25% shooting from the floor.

By your weird definition of elite D, many of the best guard defenders in history were not "elite".

See how silly that is?

really?  point out where I defined it so I know what you think is "weird"

here's my definition of elite --> smothering defensive pressure that shuts down (shooting and passing) whoever is being defended by the player.  By shut down, I'm talking making that player a non-factor on offense.  no one is good enough to completely stop a top player from scoring but an elite defender makes that player a non-factor in the offensive scheme.

What Smart did in the last game to whomever he guarded -- those figures are elite.  White is not shutting down a GSW player but he is making them work hard for any scores for the most part.  He's not committing stupid fouls, he's typically in good defensive position to impact a play when he should.  That's solid or for Roy's benefit - Really Good.

Offensively, particularly his shooting, I've maintained that other than a couple of games against Miami and the first game against GSW, he hasn't delivered.  in the last game, his normally good ball handling and smart passing were neither good nor smart.  I'll go along with those 2 things being outliers and would think he'll be back to doing well in those regards in game 5.  as far as his shooting goes, I really hope for a replay of game 1 but I just have no basis for that optimism.

You said this:

I think he's solid.  I don't think he's elite.  Elite is someone who's D is DPOY level.

For the majority of the history of the award, most of the premier guard defenders have never been in consideration for DPOY. This is your definition, and it is weird (and nonsensical)

[Roy H.]

I think by slam’s definition, there hasn’t been a single elite defender in the history of the NBA.

I mean, Bill Russell didn’t make Wilt a non-factor on offense.  KG didn’t make Duncan a non-factor.  Smart doesn’t make Curry a non-factor, either.

[gouki88]

I think by slam’s definition, there hasn’t been a single elite defender in the history of the NBA.

I mean, Bill Russell didn’t make Wilt a non-factor on offense.  KG didn’t make Duncan a non-factor.  Smart doesn’t make Curry a non-factor, either.

Great offence beats great defence, especially with modern rules on how players can actually defend.

[Roy H.]

I think by slam’s definition, there hasn’t been a single elite defender in the history of the NBA.

I mean, Bill Russell didn’t make Wilt a non-factor on offense.  KG didn’t make Duncan a non-factor.  Smart doesn’t make Curry a non-factor, either.

Great offence beats great defence, especially with modern rules on how players can actually defend.

Agreed.  Gary Payton was elite, right?  How’d he do shutting down Jordan?  He couldn’t.  He made MJ work, denied him the ball some and lessened his efficiency, but he didn’t make him a non-factor.  Because nobody could.

But, if the definition of “solid” is “very good”, I’ll live with that for White.

[nickagneta]

I think by slam’s definition, there hasn’t been a single elite defender in the history of the NBA.

I mean, Bill Russell didn’t make Wilt a non-factor on offense.  KG didn’t make Duncan a non-factor.  Smart doesn’t make Curry a non-factor, either.

Great offence beats great defence, especially with modern rules on how players can actually defend.

Agreed.  Gary Payton was elite, right?  How’d he do shutting down Jordan?  He couldn’t.  He made MJ work, denied him the ball some and lessened his efficiency, but he didn’t make him a non-factor.  Because nobody could.

But, if the definition of “solid” is “very good”, I’ll live with that for White.

I call him elite because in this defense, his defensive versatility allows him to be very, very good defensively across multiple positions which is extremely important for the switch it all defense.

White is given an assignment, but often isn't facing that player due to a switch. So stating he isn't shutting down Curry is a bit disingenuous because he often is switched off Curry.

Curry has done his most damage when his man can't fight through or over the pick and Boston's other defender is dropping rather than blitzing Curry. So though Smart and White are Curry's main defenders, they aren't the guys being lit up by Steph most of the time.

Smart and White are elite defenders but their man they are covering is the best shooter ever and lots of times Smart and White are getting switched off Curry or not getting the proper help in the pick and roll. That's allowed Curry to get his. But one thing the team has done is limit Curry from making others better through his passing, and that's an important part of the game plan, I am sure.

You have to look at the whole picture and White's overall performance within the scheme. I know you and gouki are, Roy, but I don't think slam is, especially when it comes to limiting Steph's playmaking where Boston is holding Steph to almost 3 assists less per game than his regular season number.

[slamtheking]

After a really good game 1, White's back to playing how he did in the regular season (which I thought was ok at best and not good enough to justify the cost of the trade).   

Games 2-4 in the finals --> -17 in Game 2 (only player with a worse number was Tatum at -36), 4-13 with only 2 assists and 3 TOs; -12 in Game 3 (the only Celtic with a "-"), 3-9 with 2 assist and 1 TO; -19 ('led' the team in that category) in Game 4, 4-12 with 1 asst and 3 TOs. 

just not getting it done.  people all season liked to bring up his +/-  just take attention from his shooting woes but now he's not even able to support that argument

Single game +/- is one of the least useful stats in basketball

it typically is.  we're talking 3 games in a row where he's either got the worst number in that stat for the team or next to worst

He was also 41.7% from three and averaged 12 points a game giving the Celtics much needed bench scoring. You're obviously only looking for stats that fit your narrative and refuse to look at the positives including his elite defense in this series.

again, not playing elite D.  solid D, sure.  8-36 in games 2-4 -- which is 75% of the games is not cherry picking stats by any means Nick.  it's less than 25% shooting from the floor.

By your weird definition of elite D, many of the best guard defenders in history were not "elite".

See how silly that is?

really?  point out where I defined it so I know what you think is "weird"

here's my definition of elite --> smothering defensive pressure that shuts down (shooting and passing) whoever is being defended by the player.  By shut down, I'm talking making that player a non-factor on offense.  no one is good enough to completely stop a top player from scoring but an elite defender makes that player a non-factor in the offensive scheme.

What Smart did in the last game to whomever he guarded -- those figures are elite.  White is not shutting down a GSW player but he is making them work hard for any scores for the most part.  He's not committing stupid fouls, he's typically in good defensive position to impact a play when he should.  That's solid or for Roy's benefit - Really Good.

Offensively, particularly his shooting, I've maintained that other than a couple of games against Miami and the first game against GSW, he hasn't delivered.  in the last game, his normally good ball handling and smart passing were neither good nor smart.  I'll go along with those 2 things being outliers and would think he'll be back to doing well in those regards in game 5.  as far as his shooting goes, I really hope for a replay of game 1 but I just have no basis for that optimism.

You said this:

I think he's solid.  I don't think he's elite.  Elite is someone who's D is DPOY level.

For the majority of the history of the award, most of the premier guard defenders have never been in consideration for DPOY. This is your definition, and it is weird (and nonsensical)

most of the premier guard defenders weren't able to defend multiple positions and still do well.  What Smart is able to do on the court when playing defense on pretty much everyone he's matched up with is elite.