Report: Cavs interested in Schroder; Mavs aren’t

[jpotter33]

Apologies to our homies, but the Cavs are a top team in the league right now, and that's with losing Sexton AND Rubio for the season!  Their inside game destroys us with Allen, Love, Mobley, and Markannen, while Garland carves us into little pieces.  I'm telling you, these guys are GOOD!
Just because we finally blow out a team by 50, doesn't mean our .500 team is now good!  A Cavs-C's series wouldn't be that competitive.
The guys I advocate trading for, Wade and Windler are very low cost, but would instantly become some of our best reserves.  Leave them open for threes and they are MONEY, unlike most of our entire team!  You don't worry about taking back a little salary when you're getting high quality, low cost players.  They're exactly the kind of players we need to support the J's!

Hardly. Again, we’re 2-1 against them head to head (despite not having Brown for two of those games and only one game being in Boston) and have had a fairly more difficult game schedule thus far.

Not exactly seeing the logic that somehow these head to head trends will change when (a) we’re fully healthy with both instead of just one of our stars, and (b) you’re putting a highly experienced playoff team in Boston against a very young and green playoff team in Cleveland. Just doesn’t make sense.

[sgrogan]

Trade Schroeder & who going play point? Smart? Ugh! Playoff will be harder to reach

"the playoffs" at this point are looking like a play-in game (or two) followed by a 1st round beat down.



if the Cavs offer a couple seconds or a protected 1st for Schroder I'd call that into the league office right now

Let's say the Cavs finish 2nd (based on performance to date and remaining strength of schedule, that is the most likely outcome relative to other placement), and Boston finishes with the 7th seed.  You think that it will very likely be a beatdown of Boston by Cleveland?  I don't.  I think the only team that we should fear a beatdown from are the Nets, assuming that Durant returns and Harden recovers from his latest hamstring injury. I think we match up pretty well vs the Bucks and, if the prior contest with them is an indication, the Heat.  Maybe I would worry about the Sixers, but not a beatdown by them.

I like the optimism, but I'm skeptical that a team that has essentially been .500 the past two seasons is going to get things together and win a playoff series on the road.  I don't know what "beat down" means exactly, but it it implies a playoff series that is never really in doubt, that's what I forsee.

I get the pessimism, and don’t think it misplaced, but it’s a little easier to be optimistic this year relative to last year, for me at least.  Last year our record was much closer to our scoring differential.  It was a little worse than expected, but we were 6th in the conference in scoring differential and 7th in record, so by no measurement were we a top team.  This year, while the record has stayed the same, we’re 4th in the conference in scoring differential, and third when you take into account strength of schedule as well (which is useful midseason and with 4 games against the Pistons yet to be played).  Accordingly, our overall performance has been relatively better compared to last year, which means getting waxed by a higher ranked opponent is less likely.  Sure, we might not prevail because giving yourself a road series against a top 2 seed is a tough way to start, but I wouldn’t expect something like the Nets series last year, or the Cavs series in 2015.  If we were in the 7-8 game against Charlotte, I think the 1 seed would be rooting for us to win that game so they could avoid the matchup.

I do think the best thing for the team long-term would be to sell off as many of Schröder, Richardson, Horford types as possible, get some future picks, dip down into the lottery for a season and try again next year.  (I know you want to move Smart but I think that’s best done in the off-season if it happens, which I would rather it didn’t). With such little stratification at the top of the standings, and a bunch of teams in the tax who are committed to the playoffs, it’s a sellers market.  But if we don’t go that route (and I don’t expect us to) I think we’ll see at least one competitive playoff series.  The difference between this team and the top teams of the conference is less.

There is a path. Even without a move at the deadline.
We get in as a play in team, say beat Charlotte.
We get Chicago or Cleveland. They are both probably more talented, but we would have the playoff experience.
 
I believe the more playoff series the better, although some of our recent deep advances may have skewed the J's opinion of themselves.
 

[Celtics2021]

Apologies to our homies, but the Cavs are a top team in the league right now, and that's with losing Sexton AND Rubio for the season!  Their inside game destroys us with Allen, Love, Mobley, and Markannen, while Garland carves us into little pieces.  I'm telling you, these guys are GOOD!
Just because we finally blow out a team by 50, doesn't mean our .500 team is now good!  A Cavs-C's series wouldn't be that competitive.
The guys I advocate trading for, Wade and Windler are very low cost, but would instantly become some of our best reserves.  Leave them open for threes and they are MONEY, unlike most of our entire team!  You don't worry about taking back a little salary when you're getting high quality, low cost players.  They're exactly the kind of players we need to support the J's!

Hardly. Again, we’re 2-1 against them head to head (despite not having Brown for two of those games and only one game being in Boston) and have had a fairly more difficult game schedule thus far.

Not exactly seeing the logic that somehow these head to head trends will change when (a) we’re fully healthy with both instead of just one of our stars, and (b) you’re putting a highly experienced playoff team in Boston against a very young and green playoff team in Cleveland. Just doesn’t make sense.

I think the Cavs have been legitimately good this year, and will deservedly end up with a better record than the Celtics.  I also think the Celtics match up better against the Cavs than most teams, because we also have two good bigs and don't find that style of play uncomfortable.  I'm less inclined to rely on playoff experience, because I think our rookie head coach is going to eliminate a lot of that edge.

[sgrogan]

Apologies to our homies, but the Cavs are a top team in the league right now, and that's with losing Sexton AND Rubio for the season!  Their inside game destroys us with Allen, Love, Mobley, and Markannen, while Garland carves us into little pieces.  I'm telling you, these guys are GOOD!
Just because we finally blow out a team by 50, doesn't mean our .500 team is now good!  A Cavs-C's series wouldn't be that competitive.
The guys I advocate trading for, Wade and Windler are very low cost, but would instantly become some of our best reserves.  Leave them open for threes and they are MONEY, unlike most of our entire team!  You don't worry about taking back a little salary when you're getting high quality, low cost players.  They're exactly the kind of players we need to support the J's!

Hardly. Again, we’re 2-1 against them head to head (despite not having Brown for two of those games and only one game being in Boston) and have had a fairly more difficult game schedule thus far.

Not exactly seeing the logic that somehow these head to head trends will change when (a) we’re fully healthy with both instead of just one of our stars, and (b) you’re putting a highly experienced playoff team in Boston against a very young and green playoff team in Cleveland. Just doesn’t make sense.

I think the Cavs have been legitimately good this year, and will deservedly end up with a better record than the Celtics.  I also think the Celtics match up better against the Cavs than most teams, because we also have two good bigs and don't find that style of play uncomfortable. I'm less inclined to rely on playoff experience, because I think our rookie head coach is going to eliminate a lot of that edge.

Maybe our rookie coach needs the experience as much as our players?

[Celtics2021]

Apologies to our homies, but the Cavs are a top team in the league right now, and that's with losing Sexton AND Rubio for the season!  Their inside game destroys us with Allen, Love, Mobley, and Markannen, while Garland carves us into little pieces.  I'm telling you, these guys are GOOD!
Just because we finally blow out a team by 50, doesn't mean our .500 team is now good!  A Cavs-C's series wouldn't be that competitive.
The guys I advocate trading for, Wade and Windler are very low cost, but would instantly become some of our best reserves.  Leave them open for threes and they are MONEY, unlike most of our entire team!  You don't worry about taking back a little salary when you're getting high quality, low cost players.  They're exactly the kind of players we need to support the J's!

Hardly. Again, we’re 2-1 against them head to head (despite not having Brown for two of those games and only one game being in Boston) and have had a fairly more difficult game schedule thus far.

Not exactly seeing the logic that somehow these head to head trends will change when (a) we’re fully healthy with both instead of just one of our stars, and (b) you’re putting a highly experienced playoff team in Boston against a very young and green playoff team in Cleveland. Just doesn’t make sense.

I think the Cavs have been legitimately good this year, and will deservedly end up with a better record than the Celtics.  I also think the Celtics match up better against the Cavs than most teams, because we also have two good bigs and don't find that style of play uncomfortable. I'm less inclined to rely on playoff experience, because I think our rookie head coach is going to eliminate a lot of that edge.

Maybe our rookie coach needs the experience as much as our players?

I think he does, and feel that being in a 7-game series would hold value down the line.  I'm not sure that value eclipses the value of acquiring future draft picks and getting a lottery pick this year, but there is value.

[PhoSita]

You forgetting the fact that we’re 2-1 against Milwaukee this year (all three being very close games - and our loss being a fourth quarter Christmas Day meltdown) and spanked Miami to be 1-0 against them this year? I think that’s a major exaggeration to make that argument.

I really don't put a lot of stock in the head to head records during the regular season, especially in the age of COVID.

Those teams have better players, better playoff track records, better coaches, better overall record, better point differential, and will have home court advantage.

I have 0% interest in whatever this Celtics team might do if they get past the play-in.

Maybe our rookie coach needs the experience as much as our players?

to be honest I haven't seen much to make me think that our rookie head coach is going to be our head coach for all that long

[PhoSita]

Sure but the playoffs are absolutely about top end talent and in that Boston is superior.  I'd absolutely expect Boston to beat Cleveland in a playoff series because Tatum is BY FAR the best player on either team. 

are we talking 50/40/90 Jayson Tatum going off for 50 points on the regular or the guy we've had for the vast majority of this season?

[sgrogan]

Apologies to our homies, but the Cavs are a top team in the league right now, and that's with losing Sexton AND Rubio for the season!  Their inside game destroys us with Allen, Love, Mobley, and Markannen, while Garland carves us into little pieces.  I'm telling you, these guys are GOOD!
Just because we finally blow out a team by 50, doesn't mean our .500 team is now good!  A Cavs-C's series wouldn't be that competitive.
The guys I advocate trading for, Wade and Windler are very low cost, but would instantly become some of our best reserves.  Leave them open for threes and they are MONEY, unlike most of our entire team!  You don't worry about taking back a little salary when you're getting high quality, low cost players.  They're exactly the kind of players we need to support the J's!

Hardly. Again, we’re 2-1 against them head to head (despite not having Brown for two of those games and only one game being in Boston) and have had a fairly more difficult game schedule thus far.

Not exactly seeing the logic that somehow these head to head trends will change when (a) we’re fully healthy with both instead of just one of our stars, and (b) you’re putting a highly experienced playoff team in Boston against a very young and green playoff team in Cleveland. Just doesn’t make sense.

I think the Cavs have been legitimately good this year, and will deservedly end up with a better record than the Celtics.  I also think the Celtics match up better against the Cavs than most teams, because we also have two good bigs and don't find that style of play uncomfortable. I'm less inclined to rely on playoff experience, because I think our rookie head coach is going to eliminate a lot of that edge.

Maybe our rookie coach needs the experience as much as our players?

I think he does, and feel that being in a 7-game series would hold value down the line.  I'm not sure that value eclipses the value of acquiring future draft picks and getting a lottery pick this year, but there is value.

I 'm older and put value in the process. Back in the 80's-90's. The Pistons had to overcome the Celtics, the Bulls had to overcome the Pistons.

Daft pick philosophy fascinates me. We throw away a season for the 10th pick, so much potential. After the draft, we debate how many picks we should trade to get out of the contract.

I admit that recent history has made me question some of this. I think the J's and Marcus, may have had too much "success" too soon.

Maybe if we do get through the play in and Cleveland does smoke us, it is a realization for the whole organization, ownership, management, coaching, and players?

[Celtics2021]

Apologies to our homies, but the Cavs are a top team in the league right now, and that's with losing Sexton AND Rubio for the season!  Their inside game destroys us with Allen, Love, Mobley, and Markannen, while Garland carves us into little pieces.  I'm telling you, these guys are GOOD!
Just because we finally blow out a team by 50, doesn't mean our .500 team is now good!  A Cavs-C's series wouldn't be that competitive.
The guys I advocate trading for, Wade and Windler are very low cost, but would instantly become some of our best reserves.  Leave them open for threes and they are MONEY, unlike most of our entire team!  You don't worry about taking back a little salary when you're getting high quality, low cost players.  They're exactly the kind of players we need to support the J's!

Hardly. Again, we’re 2-1 against them head to head (despite not having Brown for two of those games and only one game being in Boston) and have had a fairly more difficult game schedule thus far.

Not exactly seeing the logic that somehow these head to head trends will change when (a) we’re fully healthy with both instead of just one of our stars, and (b) you’re putting a highly experienced playoff team in Boston against a very young and green playoff team in Cleveland. Just doesn’t make sense.

I think the Cavs have been legitimately good this year, and will deservedly end up with a better record than the Celtics.  I also think the Celtics match up better against the Cavs than most teams, because we also have two good bigs and don't find that style of play uncomfortable. I'm less inclined to rely on playoff experience, because I think our rookie head coach is going to eliminate a lot of that edge.

Maybe our rookie coach needs the experience as much as our players?

I think he does, and feel that being in a 7-game series would hold value down the line.  I'm not sure that value eclipses the value of acquiring future draft picks and getting a lottery pick this year, but there is value.

I 'm older and put value in the process. Back in the 80's-90's. The Pistons had to overcome the Celtics, the Bulls had to overcome the Pistons.

Daft pick philosophy fascinates me. We throw away a season for the 10th pick, so much potential. After the draft, we debate how many picks we should trade to get out of the contract.

I admit that recent history has made me question some of this. I think the J's and Marcus, may have had too much "success" too soon.

Maybe if we do get through the play in and Cleveland does smoke us, it is a realization for the whole organization, ownership, management, coaching, and players?

I'm younger, but also value process, and not "The Process" in the way that Philly did, which I thought and will forever think was incredibly misguided.    I would have hoped that getting smoked by Brooklyn would have been the wakeup call for the organization, however.  I think this team is at a talent deficit relative to 4-6 teams, and getting a top 10 pick could either help reduce that deficit through the player drafted or through a trade of that pick, and acquiring some second round picks while clearing the books a bit could also be useful at increasing the talent next summer.  While it's a sellers market now, I think the summer will be a buyers market with many teams looking to move salary to make free agency moves, and clearing some salary space would allow us to make use of our TPEs to acquire talent more cheaply.

If we still make the playoffs while getting Nesmith, Langford, and Pritchard more minutes, that's fine too, but I'm no longer invested in Schroder and Richardson.  Bringing them in were good moves, and if we get 2-3 seconds for them, it won't have cost us anything long-term, and we can try again next year from hopefully a more advantageous position.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

You forgetting the fact that we’re 2-1 against Milwaukee this year (all three being very close games - and our loss being a fourth quarter Christmas Day meltdown) and spanked Miami to be 1-0 against them this year? I think that’s a major exaggeration to make that argument.

I really don't put a lot of stock in the head to head records during the regular season, especially in the age of COVID.

Those teams have better players, better playoff track records, better coaches, better overall record, better point differential, and will have home court advantage.

I have 0% interest in whatever this Celtics team might do if they get past the play-in.

Maybe our rookie coach needs the experience as much as our players?

to be honest I haven't seen much to make me think that our rookie head coach is going to be our head coach for all that long

You can't just throw out things that don't fit your narrative and then include things that do. The fact is that the Celtics have beaten them multiple times, and without Brown. That matters.

I don't think they are a team that would dominate us inside. Markannen aint dominating anyone inside and we've had success putting Brown on Love in the past. Williams can match Allen and Horford's veteran savvy gives us a decent matchup with Mobley.

Truthfully, the Cavs have a tough time matching up with us. They don't have good wing defenders with size to throw at Tatum.

[sgrogan]

Apologies to our homies, but the Cavs are a top team in the league right now, and that's with losing Sexton AND Rubio for the season!  Their inside game destroys us with Allen, Love, Mobley, and Markannen, while Garland carves us into little pieces.  I'm telling you, these guys are GOOD!
Just because we finally blow out a team by 50, doesn't mean our .500 team is now good!  A Cavs-C's series wouldn't be that competitive.
The guys I advocate trading for, Wade and Windler are very low cost, but would instantly become some of our best reserves.  Leave them open for threes and they are MONEY, unlike most of our entire team!  You don't worry about taking back a little salary when you're getting high quality, low cost players.  They're exactly the kind of players we need to support the J's!

Hardly. Again, we’re 2-1 against them head to head (despite not having Brown for two of those games and only one game being in Boston) and have had a fairly more difficult game schedule thus far.

Not exactly seeing the logic that somehow these head to head trends will change when (a) we’re fully healthy with both instead of just one of our stars, and (b) you’re putting a highly experienced playoff team in Boston against a very young and green playoff team in Cleveland. Just doesn’t make sense.

I think the Cavs have been legitimately good this year, and will deservedly end up with a better record than the Celtics.  I also think the Celtics match up better against the Cavs than most teams, because we also have two good bigs and don't find that style of play uncomfortable. I'm less inclined to rely on playoff experience, because I think our rookie head coach is going to eliminate a lot of that edge.

Maybe our rookie coach needs the experience as much as our players?

I think he does, and feel that being in a 7-game series would hold value down the line.  I'm not sure that value eclipses the value of acquiring future draft picks and getting a lottery pick this year, but there is value.

I 'm older and put value in the process. Back in the 80's-90's. The Pistons had to overcome the Celtics, the Bulls had to overcome the Pistons.

Daft pick philosophy fascinates me. We throw away a season for the 10th pick, so much potential. After the draft, we debate how many picks we should trade to get out of the contract.

I admit that recent history has made me question some of this. I think the J's and Marcus, may have had too much "success" too soon.

Maybe if we do get through the play in and Cleveland does smoke us, it is a realization for the whole organization, ownership, management, coaching, and players?

I'm younger, but also value process, and not "The Process" in the way that Philly did, which I thought and will forever think was incredibly misguided.    I would have hoped that getting smoked by Brooklyn would have been the wakeup call for the organization, however.  I think this team is at a talent deficit relative to 4-6 teams, and getting a top 10 pick could either help reduce that deficit through the player drafted or through a trade of that pick, and acquiring some second round picks while clearing the books a bit could also be useful at increasing the talent next summer.  While it's a sellers market now, I think the summer will be a buyers market with many teams looking to move salary to make free agency moves, and clearing some salary space would allow us to make use of our TPEs to acquire talent more cheaply.

If we still make the playoffs while getting Nesmith, Langford, and Pritchard more minutes, that's fine too, but I'm no longer invested in Schroder and Richardson.  Bringing them in were good moves, and if we get 2-3 seconds for them, it won't have cost us anything long-term, and we can try again next year from hopefully a more advantageous position.

I think we're close on the evaluation.
I trust the experience more, you trust the influx of talent more. You trust the value of the experience less, and I think the talent upgrade is dubious. TP to you.

[gouki88]

Sure but the playoffs are absolutely about top end talent and in that Boston is superior.  I'd absolutely expect Boston to beat Cleveland in a playoff series because Tatum is BY FAR the best player on either team. 

are we talking 50/40/90 Jayson Tatum going off for 50 points on the regular or the guy we've had for the vast majority of this season?

Both would make Moranis' statement true

[PhoSita]

You can't just throw out things that don't fit your narrative and then include things that do. The fact is that the Celtics have beaten them multiple times, and without Brown. That matters.

You can't just throw out things that don't fit your narrative and then include things that do. The fact is that the Celtics have been them multiple times, and without Brown. That matters.

And I'm doing that ... how?

If I was like "Yeah the Cavs have a 3-1 record against the Celts this season!" but then I go "Oh well, who cares that the Celts have a 2-1 record against the Bucks ..." that would be an example of what you're talking about.


The overall Cavs record is much better than the Celts. They also have a significantly better point differential.  They've been a better team all season.

You're correct that the Celts have done okay against them in head to head matchups this season.  The reason I don't put a lot of stock in that sort of evidence is that I think we've seen many times over the years that teams might play tight in the regular season despite a disparity in talent or record, but the playoffs are a different story.  I also think it's fraught to point to individual game samples, or samples of 3-4 games, in a season in which players are out so often due to COVID.


I just don't trust this Celtics team to do anything with consistency, which would include winning 4 out of 7 in a playoff series against a competent opponent.

I would agree that the Celts probably would have a better shot against the Cavs than if they were matched up with the Bucks, Heat, or Nets.  Given the Cavs' youth, I think it might end up going 6 or 7 games.  Perhaps it would be one of those series where the home team wins comfortably each time.


I want to circle back and restate my original point here, just so that it's clear. The Celtics are very likely to be in the play-in. They will have to win at least one, maybe two games just to be in the playoffs. Once there, they will not have homecourt advantage, and they will likely play a team that has a much better overall record and point differential.  It is also quite likely that their opponent will have more talent, more experience, and a much better coach. 

The Cavs are arguably an exception to that last point.  Even so, because of all of the above, I just don't put much value on the idea of the Celts making the playoffs, and I don't think the playoffs should factor into any personnel decisions the team has to make at the deadline.

[PhoSita]

Sure but the playoffs are absolutely about top end talent and in that Boston is superior.  I'd absolutely expect Boston to beat Cleveland in a playoff series because Tatum is BY FAR the best player on either team. 

are we talking 50/40/90 Jayson Tatum going off for 50 points on the regular or the guy we've had for the vast majority of this season?

Both would make Moranis' statement true

hard disagree

if Tatum's shot is off I think there's a strong argument that Mobley has a bigger positive impact on the game for his team. He's been an absolute game changer for them on defense.


The Cavs were 26th on defense last season.

This season they are 3rd.

The biggest difference in their roster is Mobley.

[gouki88]

Sure but the playoffs are absolutely about top end talent and in that Boston is superior.  I'd absolutely expect Boston to beat Cleveland in a playoff series because Tatum is BY FAR the best player on either team. 

are we talking 50/40/90 Jayson Tatum going off for 50 points on the regular or the guy we've had for the vast majority of this season?

Both would make Moranis' statement true

hard disagree

if Tatum's shot is off I think there's a strong argument that Mobley has a bigger positive impact on the game for his team. He's been an absolute game changer for them on defense.


The Cavs were 26th on defense last season.

This season they are 3rd.

The biggest difference in their roster is Mobley.

Mobley is nearly as much a game-changer on offence, except in the negative. To suggest he has a bigger positive impact than Tatum is laughable.