Author Topic: Why Brown must be traded at some point  (Read 13067 times)

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Why Brown must be traded at some point
« on: December 29, 2021, 10:45:44 PM »

Online Moranis

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I have been saying something like this for basically the last 3 years, but I wanted to fully capture my thoughts as to why I think the team should trade Brown and why I believe Brown isn't all that important to the Celtics actual wins and losses.

First, some pure facts

Year - Record w/ Brown, Record w/o Brown
2022 - 9-12, 7-6
2021 - 30-28, 6-8
2020 - 38-19, 10-5
2019 - 41-33, 8-0
2018 - 47-23, 8-4

Not counting his rookie year since he didn't play much, so in total Boston is 165-115 (58.9%) with Brown and is 39-23 (62.9%) without Brown.  So when Brown hasn't been available at all, Boston has won games at a higher rate than when Brown has been available.

Now contrast that with Tatum

2022 - 16-17, 0-2
2021 - 34-30, 2-6
2020 - 46-20, 2-4
2019 - 48-31, 1-2
2018 - 53-27, 2-0

So in total Boston is 197-125 (61.1%) with Tatum and is 7-14 (33.3%) without Tatum.  Obviously that is a fairly small sample size, but it is a dramatic difference. 

But I don't think the dramatic difference is a coincidence for several reasons.  For the most part Tatum and Brown are not a very good fit and this is borne out in the simple fact that Tatum plays better when Brown isn't around.  I believe a lot of that is because they essentially function best when they occupy the same parts of the floor and thus get in each other's way.  So when Brown isn't available, Tatum has more freedom on the floor to play the game the way that best suits him.  And this isn't just conjecture.  Take this year thus far. 

Here are Tatum's numbers in the games Tatum and Brown have played together: 22.6 p, 8.5 r, 4 a - 37.12 FG%, 25.67 3PT%, 78.39 FT%

Now here are Tatum's numbers in the games Brown missed that Tatum played: 29.6 p, 8.8 r, 3.4 a - 48.96 FG%, 40.4 3PT%, 80.34 FT%

This is similar for both stints Brown missed a bunch of games in a row and the games in between and surrounding them (so it isn't skewed to a slow start or a hot streak).  This also matches fairly closely to how Tatum has historically played with and without Brown (at least from a shooting perspective, he quite simply shoots a lot better in the games Brown doesn't play).  Tatum is better when Brown doesn't play and that leads to Boston winning games at a slightly higher percentage when Brown doesn't actually play.

Conversely, the inverse is not as true.  The Celtics do not win at nearly the same rate when they have Brown and do not have Tatum.  Clearly, I believe that is because Tatum is a better player, but it goes deeper than that.  Brown's style of play is much more typical of what you find from a role player.  What I mean by that, is he is a guy that does a lot of things well, but is not really elite at anything, and thus can't handle the load when he has to be the #1 guy.  So because he can't play like a lead scorer and because he isn't a master of anything else i.e. he is a very good, but not elite defender, shooter, etc. when the focus is on him, the team doesn't play as well nor win at the same rate.  Brown is what I'll call a suped up role player.  He is a jack of all trades, but a master of none, so he just doesn't have the positive impact on winning, you would think someone with his stats, skills, etc. would have.  And that brings us back to point #1 i.e. that because he and Tatum are not a great fit, Brown's best traits are not being properly utilized and he harms Tatum as well, thereby diminishing the ceiling of each individually and as a team collectively. 

To be clear, I do not necessarily think Boston would be better over the course of a season if Brown got hurt and missed the year, however, I do think without a shadow of a doubt that Boston would be better if they got better fitting pieces around Tatum in a trade of Brown, even if the players were not individually as skilled or talented as Brown.  We saw something similar to this when the team downgraded from Irving to Walker.  Boston got better when they had a guy that fit better off and on the court even though that player wasn't as good.  I absolutely believe the same thing would happen in a trade of Brown, if the right pieces were brought back.  This is also why I would have traded Brown for Kawhi or Harden over the last several seasons even if it was a short-term thing as I do not think that Boston is going to compete for titles with the roster as currently constructed.  Even if Tatum becomes a MVP type player, I just don't think the pieces are in place to properly support him.  That is why Brown must be traded.  It has to be the right trade, but I do believe it must happen at some point soon (i.e. this year or this summer).  The longer the team goes like this, the more likely it is that Tatum leaves and that would set the franchise back years and we would have wasted a ton of years and essentially wasted the 2nd best player the franchise has had since Bird (KG was better for 1.5 years until he got hurt).  And that would be the real shame.  To have a talent like Tatum and waste it by being afraid to pull the trigger.  Ainge failed on that for years, hopefully Stevens does not.
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Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2021, 11:53:00 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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You make good points.

I think the basic fact here is that Brown is not as good as Tatum. Couple that with the fact that Tatum and Brown do not make each other better.  This is different from saying that they can't play together.  They don't have a two man game.

Can you think of a single play that this team regularly runs that utilizes both of them? I can't.

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Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2021, 12:38:16 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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Brown had 36 shots and one assist. This is as down on him as I have been.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 12:46:30 AM by celticsclay »

Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2021, 12:59:00 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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Brown had 36 shots and one assist. This is as down on him as I have been.

I’d wait to see how many potential assists he had tonight before coming to such a conclusion.  Guys were missing wide open shots all night.  By the end of it guys were passing up wide open shots too.  Seemed like Jaylen was the only guy who wasn’t afraid to shoot, they were so collectively bad.

Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2021, 01:17:48 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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Too bad that this thread is a year and a half too late.  Better title would be, why Brown should have been traded when we had the chance to get a star.

But nooooooo, fans love their homegrown, young guy with potential.  Nine times of of ten you take the sure thing but it’s too late now.  It’s obvious he won’t be a real star and should be a third guy at best. 

It takes fans way to long to realize what they have and once they do, they somehow want to turn THAT guy into a better player.  Good luck with that.

Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2021, 01:24:00 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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You make good points.

I think the basic fact here is that Brown is not as good as Tatum. Couple that with the fact that Tatum and Brown do not make each other better.  This is different from saying that they can't play together.  They don't have a two man game.

Can you think of a single play that this team regularly runs that utilizes both of them? I can't.
Let me make a small correction.  Tatum and brown don’t make ANYONE better.  This came out last year and of course the fan base lashed out when it was obvious as all get out.

I see no issues with them playing together; they simply are not as good as fans thought.

Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2021, 01:29:59 AM »

Kiorrik

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Brown had 36 shots and one assist. This is as down on him as I have been.

I’d wait to see how many potential assists he had tonight before coming to such a conclusion.  Guys were missing wide open shots all night.  By the end of it guys were passing up wide open shots too.  Seemed like Jaylen was the only guy who wasn’t afraid to shoot, they were so collectively bad.

8.

Quote
According to @ESPNStatsInfo, Jaylen Brown had eight potential assists tonight – tied for the most by any player who didn't record an assist in a game this season. Certainly felt that he had around that many while watching live.

https://twitter.com/TimBontemps/status/1476395315834011648

Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2021, 01:58:57 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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Brown took 36 shots last night. He was dominating the ball, yet he had zero assists and 3 turnovers! I'm gonna write this again cause it is straight up ridiculous: 36 shot attempts, zero assists! This is the issue, not that the Jays "occupy the same parts of the floor" like the OP suggests. What does that even mean? The vast majority of players in the modern NBA occupy space on the perimeter.

edit: just saw that celticsclay wrote practically the same thing
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 02:13:31 AM by Jvalin »

Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2021, 02:11:07 AM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

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Too bad that this thread is a year and a half too late.  Better title would be, why Brown should have been traded when we had the chance to get a star.

But nooooooo, fans love their homegrown, young guy with potential.  Nine times of of ten you take the sure thing but it’s too late now.  It’s obvious he won’t be a real star and should be a third guy at best. 

It takes fans way to long to realize what they have and once they do, they somehow want to turn THAT guy into a better player.  Good luck with that.

Not related but I don't think the fans necessarily made their own bed as you seem to suggest heavily here...since it's not like we get to vote on whether to keep Brown/Tatum...

Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2021, 02:22:23 AM »

Online slamtheking

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Brown took 36 shots last night. He was dominating the ball, yet he had zero assists and 3 turnovers! I'm gonna write this again cause it is straight up ridiculous: 36 shot attempts, zero assists! This is the issue, not that the Jays "occupy the same parts of the floor" like the OP suggests. What does that even mean? The vast majority of players in the modern NBA occupy space on the perimeter.

edit: just saw that celticsclay wrote practically the same thing
0 assists means nothing on a night when the whole team shoots like crap and that he did pass to teammates enough for 8 potential assists.   4-42 on three pointers by the team.  Jaylen's passes were likely almost all for 3's.  if the bricklayers made even half of those attempts, the C's win.  This wasn't on Jaylen -- other than his own horrible 3 point shooting.  he was the only one trying to get baskets by driving to the bucket.  everyone else was bombing away, badly.

Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2021, 02:25:27 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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Brown took 36 shots last night. He was dominating the ball, yet he had zero assists and 3 turnovers! I'm gonna write this again cause it is straight up ridiculous: 36 shot attempts, zero assists! This is the issue, not that the Jays "occupy the same parts of the floor" like the OP suggests. What does that even mean? The vast majority of players in the modern NBA occupy space on the perimeter.

edit: just saw that celticsclay wrote practically the same thing
0 assists means nothing on a night when the whole team shoots like crap and that he did pass to teammates enough for 8 potential assists.   4-42 on three pointers by the team.  Jaylen's passes were likely almost all for 3's.  if the bricklayers made even half of those attempts, the C's win.  This wasn't on Jaylen -- other than his own horrible 3 point shooting.  he was the only one trying to get baskets by driving to the bucket.  everyone else was bombing away, badly.
Are you suggesting that Brown is actually a good passer, but his teammates cannot take advantage of his passing skills? If so, how come Horford delivered 8 assists last night with only 1 t/o? He was playing alongside the same teammates.

Come on man, we both know Brown is a bad facilitator.

Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2021, 02:28:59 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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Brown took 36 shots last night. He was dominating the ball, yet he had zero assists and 3 turnovers! I'm gonna write this again cause it is straight up ridiculous: 36 shot attempts, zero assists! This is the issue, not that the Jays "occupy the same parts of the floor" like the OP suggests. What does that even mean? The vast majority of players in the modern NBA occupy space on the perimeter.

edit: just saw that celticsclay wrote practically the same thing
0 assists means nothing on a night when the whole team shoots like crap and that he did pass to teammates enough for 8 potential assists.   4-42 on three pointers by the team.  Jaylen's passes were likely almost all for 3's.  if the bricklayers made even half of those attempts, the C's win.  This wasn't on Jaylen -- other than his own horrible 3 point shooting.  he was the only one trying to get baskets by driving to the bucket.  everyone else was bombing away, badly.
Are you suggesting that Brown is actually a good passer, but his teammates cannot take advantage of his passing skills? If so, how come Horford delivered 8 assists last night with only 1 t/o? He was playing alongside the same teammates.

Did you watch the game?

Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2021, 02:39:29 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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Brown took 36 shots last night. He was dominating the ball, yet he had zero assists and 3 turnovers! I'm gonna write this again cause it is straight up ridiculous: 36 shot attempts, zero assists! This is the issue, not that the Jays "occupy the same parts of the floor" like the OP suggests. What does that even mean? The vast majority of players in the modern NBA occupy space on the perimeter.

edit: just saw that celticsclay wrote practically the same thing
0 assists means nothing on a night when the whole team shoots like crap and that he did pass to teammates enough for 8 potential assists.   4-42 on three pointers by the team.  Jaylen's passes were likely almost all for 3's.  if the bricklayers made even half of those attempts, the C's win.  This wasn't on Jaylen -- other than his own horrible 3 point shooting.  he was the only one trying to get baskets by driving to the bucket.  everyone else was bombing away, badly.
Are you suggesting that Brown is actually a good passer, but his teammates cannot take advantage of his passing skills? If so, how come Horford delivered 8 assists last night with only 1 t/o? He was playing alongside the same teammates.

Did you watch the game?
No. Are you happy now? I've been watching his games the past 6 years. He's a scorer, not a shot creator. Feel free to believe he is a good passer and his teammates cannot take advantage of his passing skills.

Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2021, 02:46:10 AM »

Kiorrik

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Brown took 36 shots last night. He was dominating the ball, yet he had zero assists and 3 turnovers! I'm gonna write this again cause it is straight up ridiculous: 36 shot attempts, zero assists! This is the issue, not that the Jays "occupy the same parts of the floor" like the OP suggests. What does that even mean? The vast majority of players in the modern NBA occupy space on the perimeter.

edit: just saw that celticsclay wrote practically the same thing
0 assists means nothing on a night when the whole team shoots like crap and that he did pass to teammates enough for 8 potential assists.   4-42 on three pointers by the team.  Jaylen's passes were likely almost all for 3's.  if the bricklayers made even half of those attempts, the C's win.  This wasn't on Jaylen -- other than his own horrible 3 point shooting.  he was the only one trying to get baskets by driving to the bucket.  everyone else was bombing away, badly.
Are you suggesting that Brown is actually a good passer, but his teammates cannot take advantage of his passing skills? If so, how come Horford delivered 8 assists last night with only 1 t/o? He was playing alongside the same teammates.

Did you watch the game?
No. Are you happy now? I've been watching his games the past 6 years. He's a scorer, not a shot creator. Feel free to believe he is a good passer and his teammates cannot take advantage of his passing skills.

I've posted this in like 6 topics now (including on this page) because people keep bringing up Brown's lack of assists.

Quote
According to @ESPNStatsInfo, Jaylen Brown had eight potential assists tonight – tied for the most by any player who didn't record an assist in a game this season. Certainly felt that he had around that many while watching live.

https://twitter.com/TimBontemps/status/1476395315834011648

Re: Why Brown must be traded at some point
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2021, 02:54:28 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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Brown took 36 shots last night. He was dominating the ball, yet he had zero assists and 3 turnovers! I'm gonna write this again cause it is straight up ridiculous: 36 shot attempts, zero assists! This is the issue, not that the Jays "occupy the same parts of the floor" like the OP suggests. What does that even mean? The vast majority of players in the modern NBA occupy space on the perimeter.

edit: just saw that celticsclay wrote practically the same thing
0 assists means nothing on a night when the whole team shoots like crap and that he did pass to teammates enough for 8 potential assists.   4-42 on three pointers by the team.  Jaylen's passes were likely almost all for 3's.  if the bricklayers made even half of those attempts, the C's win.  This wasn't on Jaylen -- other than his own horrible 3 point shooting.  he was the only one trying to get baskets by driving to the bucket.  everyone else was bombing away, badly.
Are you suggesting that Brown is actually a good passer, but his teammates cannot take advantage of his passing skills? If so, how come Horford delivered 8 assists last night with only 1 t/o? He was playing alongside the same teammates.

Did you watch the game?
No. Are you happy now? I've been watching his games the past 6 years. He's a scorer, not a shot creator. Feel free to believe he is a good passer and his teammates cannot take advantage of his passing skills.

I've posted this in like 6 topics now (including on this page) because people keep bringing up Brown's lack of assists.

Quote
According to @ESPNStatsInfo, Jaylen Brown had eight potential assists tonight – tied for the most by any player who didn't record an assist in a game this season. Certainly felt that he had around that many while watching live.

https://twitter.com/TimBontemps/status/1476395315834011648
I read it, no need to post it 6 times. Again: Do you think Brown is actually a good passer and his teammates cannot take advantage of his passing skills?