Management, I’m pleading with you; blow it up!

[Roy H.]

For the blow it up crowd:  what’s the likelihood that any assets we receive in trade are individually or collectively as good as JT / JB?

10%?  25%?  50%?

If you're trading those guys, you're not getting comparable individual talent back.  Best case is you're getting a boatload of picks and you try to turn that asset haul over the next 2-3 years into a young up-and-coming team similar to, say, Memphis. Or what the Nets were before Kyrie & Durant went there.

That by no means makes championship contention very likely but it could provide a more sustainable future with better vibes and more competitiveness than what appears to be a stalled-out, frustrating .500 team slated for multiple first round exits before the Jays leave in free agency.

That doesn’t excite me.  I don’t want to trade young all-stars to be Memphis, or a Cleveland type team.

Crazy fact:  only nine franchises are more than one game above .500 this season

[Who]

For the blow it up crowd:  what’s the likelihood that any assets we receive in trade are individually or collectively as good as JT / JB?

10%?  25%?  50%?

If you're trading those guys, you're not getting comparable individual talent back.  Best case is you're getting a boatload of picks and you try to turn that asset haul over the next 2-3 years into a young up-and-coming team similar to, say, Memphis. Or what the Nets were before Kyrie & Durant went there.

That by no means makes championship contention very likely but it could provide a more sustainable future with better vibes and more competitiveness than what appears to be a stalled-out, frustrating .500 team slated for multiple first round exits before the Jays leave in free agency.

That doesn’t excite me.  I don’t want to trade young all-stars to be Memphis, or a Cleveland type team.

Crazy fact:  only nine franchises are more than one game above .500 this season

Yeah, I don't think those teams are going anywhere. They are regular season warriors playoff pretenders.

A lot of fool's gold there in term of how bright their futures are. Memphis has a sliver of a chance if JJJ can become an All-Star big man but I don't see Cleveland having any chance of challenging for a title in the future. They are on the road to nowhere and Memphis likely are too.

[celticsclay]

Serious point here:

Take a superstar and give him a 2nd star in support in Jaylen Brown. Give him a solid but unexceptional supporting cast of Horford, Timelord, Smart, Schroder and guys like Grant Williams, J.Richardson, Pritchard, Romeo, Kanter, Nesmith ... how good is that team?

That is a 50+ win team with a legit superstar. Take all of the guys you consider superstars and tell me how many of those teams are not 50 win teams? How many are 55-60 win teams?

Why is this team fighting for .500 with Tatum? Why is he considered a superstar if he cannot deliver what these other superstars can deliver?

Tell me this team does not win 50+ games with James Harden or with Joel Embiid. Nevermind a Giannis or Steph Curry.

Again, depends on what you call a superstar.  If a superstar is only top 5 players, then no, Tatum isn't that, but if you are talking about the top 15 to 20 players, then sure Tatum is absolutely one of those.  And for the record, Golden State was 39-33 last year with a fairly similar team to this year. 

Boston has played a very difficult schedule with players in and out of the lineup.  The C's will go on a tear starting in mid-January to mid-March (18-7 should be the worst case if they are healthy) and after that 8-5 should be the worst case, so even looking at the worst case (again if they are mostly healthy), when Boston ends the year something like 26-12 in the worst case, I'd like to see all of those posting now continue making the same type of posts.

Schedule matters.  Health matters.  Boston has, and still has a couple more weeks of, a very difficult schedule and the roster has been mess because of covid and other injuries.  If Tatum and Brown are healthy starting in mid-January, Boston will shoot up the standings.

Great post here Mo. TP

[PhoSita]

There's nothing at all exciting about staring down a rebuild.

For many reasons I don't think the team is going to go that route in the near term. They will try to shuffle the pieces around the main guys first. Probably trade Smart, as a minimum starting point.

But if that doesn't work, and this is still basically a .500 team in a year or so, it will be time to start looking at trade options for Brown and probably also Tatum.

The only thing worse than having to enter an indefinite rebuild with no certain endpoint would be to continue to walk a treadmill of irrelevance and frustration until Brown and Tatum leave for nothing or force their way out for a minimal return.

[PhoSita]

For the blow it up crowd:  what’s the likelihood that any assets we receive in trade are individually or collectively as good as JT / JB?

10%?  25%?  50%?

If you're trading those guys, you're not getting comparable individual talent back.  Best case is you're getting a boatload of picks and you try to turn that asset haul over the next 2-3 years into a young up-and-coming team similar to, say, Memphis. Or what the Nets were before Kyrie & Durant went there.

That by no means makes championship contention very likely but it could provide a more sustainable future with better vibes and more competitiveness than what appears to be a stalled-out, frustrating .500 team slated for multiple first round exits before the Jays leave in free agency.

That doesn’t excite me.  I don’t want to trade young all-stars to be Memphis, or a Cleveland type team.

Crazy fact:  only nine franchises are more than one game above .500 this season

Yeah, I don't think those teams are going anywhere. They are regular season warriors playoff pretenders.

A lot of fool's gold there in term of how bright their futures are. Memphis has a sliver of a chance if JJJ can become an All-Star big man but I don't see Cleveland having any chance of challenging for a title in the future. They are on the road to nowhere and Memphis likely are too.

The Celtics currently are not just going nowhere. They are capped out and unpleasant to watch. And if it continues the main guys will be looking to force their way out.

I would much rather watch a rebuilding team that might have a ceiling of 50-55 wins and the second round than spend another 2-3 watching this Celtics team flounder around .500.

Either way you're not winning a title. So don't get me wrong about that. It's about getting back to the point where this team is a regular source of entertainment and excitement about the future rather than a dreary reminder of how many things have gone wrong in the last 3 years

[celticsclay]

For the blow it up crowd:  what’s the likelihood that any assets we receive in trade are individually or collectively as good as JT / JB?

10%?  25%?  50%?

If you're trading those guys, you're not getting comparable individual talent back.  Best case is you're getting a boatload of picks and you try to turn that asset haul over the next 2-3 years into a young up-and-coming team similar to, say, Memphis. Or what the Nets were before Kyrie & Durant went there.

That by no means makes championship contention very likely but it could provide a more sustainable future with better vibes and more competitiveness than what appears to be a stalled-out, frustrating .500 team slated for multiple first round exits before the Jays leave in free agency.

Does anyone know how many games this season we have had Tatum, Brown, Horford, Shroeder, Smart and Timelord available? I realize Timelord and possibly Brown would be considered injury prone. But I don't the other players would be. Horford has been pretty durable despite his age. Tatum and Schroeder have as well. I agree we should have won a decent amount of games we lost (including Minnesota obviously). However, I do wonder what we are looking like if we ever get those 6 guys together for a reasonable stretch.

[Who]

I definitely do not think the team needs to rebuild.

------------------------

What I want to see them do is go all-out for a 3rd star. I would continue to commit to building around Jaylen & Tatum but everyone else on the roster is available if it gets me to that 3rd star.

I'd look at two scenarios:

(1) A 3rd star which would require someone of a similar talent level or higher of Jayson Tatum. So say a top 10 or top 15 player. Think someone like Damian Lillard.

(2) The second scenario involves failing to get a player of that caliber and having to build around a lesser star. In this case, think CJ McCollum in which case Boston needs both a 3rd star and a 4th star in order to compete for a title. Say McCollum and Siakam. Something like that.

And then look to rebuild the supporting cast / role players / depth around the new core.

I believe they have a shot at that more talented 3rd star by offering up a huge boatload of future draft picks and whatever young players we have for a disgruntled star / team situation. If that fails, the next best solve is trying to find a lower priced quasi-star like CJ McCollum and then cashing in on all other available picks / young players for a 4th star.

[sgrogan]

For the blow it up crowd:  what’s the likelihood that any assets we receive in trade are individually or collectively as good as JT / JB?

10%?  25%?  50%?

If you're trading those guys, you're not getting comparable individual talent back.  Best case is you're getting a boatload of picks and you try to turn that asset haul over the next 2-3 years into a young up-and-coming team similar to, say, Memphis. Or what the Nets were before Kyrie & Durant went there.

That by no means makes championship contention very likely but it could provide a more sustainable future with better vibes and more competitiveness than what appears to be a stalled-out, frustrating .500 team slated for multiple first round exits before the Jays leave in free agency.

That doesn’t excite me.  I don’t want to trade young all-stars to be Memphis, or a Cleveland type team.

Crazy fact:  only nine franchises are more than one game above .500 this season

Yeah, I don't think those teams are going anywhere. They are regular season warriors playoff pretenders.

A lot of fool's gold there in term of how bright their futures are. Memphis has a sliver of a chance if JJJ can become an All-Star big man but I don't see Cleveland having any chance of challenging for a title in the future. They are on the road to nowhere and Memphis likely are too.

The Celtics currently are not just going nowhere. They are capped out and unpleasant to watch. And if it continues the main guys will be looking to force their way out.

I would much rather watch a rebuilding team that might have a ceiling of 50-55 wins and the second round than spend another 2-3 watching this Celtics team flounder around .500.

Either way you're not winning a title. So don't get me wrong about that. It's about getting back to the point where this team is a regular source of entertainment and excitement about the future rather than a dreary reminder of how many things have gone wrong in the last 3 years

How is this possible?
It's not like we have Pierce and Garnett to trade to a contender, for hopefully, a couple of 3 overall picks with potential.
We're not looking at a 50 win team, we're looking at a 30 win team.

[Who]

How good Jayson Tatum is is important to knowing how much talent you need alongside him in order to reasonably / realistically compete for an NBA Title.

The goal of critiquing him is not to get rid of him but to understand what we need around him in order to win.

-----------------------------------------

There are periods where Tatum has sustained levels of performance at a borderline Top 10 player in the league.Either just inside or just outside the top 10.

Tatum was phenomenal in the 2nd half of last season.

It looked like he had arrived. That he was now a franchise player. Not only in name but in performance. That is why it is so disappointing to see him fall back this year.

To revert back to a level closer to where he was in the first half of last season when he was more like a top 20 player than a top 10 player. He is still unable to consistently be that guy. That player that we need him to become. That player who changes the whole trajectory of the team.

And that doesn't even include the possibility of Tatum continuing to improve from borderline top 10 player to a borderline top 5 player which is possible but unclear how probable it is. But even that borderline top 10 player Tatum was in the 2nd half of last season is enough to put Boston in the the title bracket if we can improve the talent enough around him so I say plan for that .... and if he outperforms? Great! That makes everything easier.

But plan for borderline top 10 because it is very tough to go from borderline top 10 to top 5. It is very tough to go from a top 20-25 player to a top 10 player as Jaylen Brown is currently finding but it is even tougher again on going from top 10 to top 5 and I do not like putting all our eggs in that basket.

Better to find a path forward with Tatum at his current best-self (borderline top 10 player).

[PhoSita]

How is this possible?
It's not like we have Pierce and Garnett to trade to a contender, for hopefully, a couple of 3 overall picks with potential.
We're not looking at a 50 win team, we're looking at a 30 win team.

Don't get me wrong, rebuilds are never a guarantee of anything. They often end up in the same spot that the Celtics are in now ... capped out with a core that isn't good enough.

But that's the life cycle of NBA teams ... you go through your asset collection / player development phase, put together the most talented core you can, try to maximize around that group, and then when you've hit a ceiling or you can't sustain any longer, you start over.

As I've stated earlier in this thread, I do not expect the Celtics to trade the Jays and start a rebuild in the short term. They will play this out further. They will look to trade anybody not named "Jay" and hope that a new mix will yield different results.  Maybe bank on health / COVID luck improving.

But if that doesn't work, and we're sitting in more or less the same spot as Jaylen approaches the final year of his deal, with Tatum having just two years left, the only smart option left will be to look to deal those guys for a rebuilding package. Holding onto them until they're gone would be franchise suicide.

[PhoSita]

How good Jayson Tatum is is important to knowing how much talent you need alongside him in order to reasonably / realistically compete for an NBA Title.

The goal of critiquing him is not to get rid of him but to understand what we need around him in order to win.

What avenues do they realistically have left to substantially improve the talent around Tatum?

As I see it, they basically need to strike gold in the middle of the draft and get a guy who will almost immediately make a major impact.  Basically a Siakam or Draymond level supporting player who doesn't require more than a season or so to grow into that kind of role.

That's obviously really hard to do.

For the blow it up crowd:  what’s the likelihood that any assets we receive in trade are individually or collectively as good as JT / JB?

10%?  25%?  50%?

If you're trading those guys, you're not getting comparable individual talent back.  Best case is you're getting a boatload of picks and you try to turn that asset haul over the next 2-3 years into a young up-and-coming team similar to, say, Memphis. Or what the Nets were before Kyrie & Durant went there.

That by no means makes championship contention very likely but it could provide a more sustainable future with better vibes and more competitiveness than what appears to be a stalled-out, frustrating .500 team slated for multiple first round exits before the Jays leave in free agency.

Does anyone know how many games this season we have had Tatum, Brown, Horford, Shroeder, Smart and Timelord available? I realize Timelord and possibly Brown would be considered injury prone. But I don't the other players would be. Horford has been pretty durable despite his age. Tatum and Schroeder have as well. I agree we should have won a decent amount of games we lost (including Minnesota obviously). However, I do wonder what we are looking like if we ever get those 6 guys together for a reasonable stretch.

My problem with this line of reasoning is that I honestly can't remember the last time we *weren't* saying "Just wait until the main guys get healthy, then let's see how good they can be!"

Like honestly ... when have the main guys been healthy in the last 3, 4, 5 years?

At some point you just have to factor in that the team is never going to be fully healthy.

[celticsclay]

For the blow it up crowd:  what’s the likelihood that any assets we receive in trade are individually or collectively as good as JT / JB?

10%?  25%?  50%?

If you're trading those guys, you're not getting comparable individual talent back.  Best case is you're getting a boatload of picks and you try to turn that asset haul over the next 2-3 years into a young up-and-coming team similar to, say, Memphis. Or what the Nets were before Kyrie & Durant went there.

That by no means makes championship contention very likely but it could provide a more sustainable future with better vibes and more competitiveness than what appears to be a stalled-out, frustrating .500 team slated for multiple first round exits before the Jays leave in free agency.

That doesn’t excite me.  I don’t want to trade young all-stars to be Memphis, or a Cleveland type team.

Crazy fact:  only nine franchises are more than one game above .500 this season

These are two really weird teams to call out as a non-exciting teams. Memphis is 21-14, with a potential superstar in Ja Morant. They have Dillon Brooks averaging 19 points at 25, Bane averaging 17 at 23, whatever Jaren Jackson Jr. turns out to be plus a very raw top ten pick in Ziare Williams. Their contracts are pretty good as they have a lot of mid size expirings like Melton, Jones, dunn and culver if they want to package for a star with one Bane or Brooks. Adams becomes an expiring after next year. I am not a cap wizard but appears they will have room for a max contract this summer. While it isn't a glamor market i think it is more appealing for free agents than cities like Cleveland, Minnesota and Utah. So again what exactly so bad about that?

And Cleveland? I was dead wrong on them about 6 months ago, but Allen and Garland have serious cases to make the allstar game, Mobley looks like a potential superstar and they may be able to get something for Sextons bird rights if they don't resign him. What is so bad about that?

Very odd choices to use as examples of teams we don't want to be. If you say Sacramento or the Magic sure. However, two teams in playoff seeding with a ton of young players and potential superstars, what are you guys watching?

[sgrogan]

How is this possible?
It's not like we have Pierce and Garnett to trade to a contender, for hopefully, a couple of 3 overall picks with potential.
We're not looking at a 50 win team, we're looking at a 30 win team.

Don't get me wrong, rebuilds are never a guarantee of anything. They often end up in the same spot that the Celtics are in now ... capped out with a core that isn't good enough.

But that's the life cycle of NBA teams ... you go through your asset collection / player development phase, put together the most talented core you can, try to maximize around that group, and then when you've hit a ceiling or you can't sustain any longer, you start over.

As I've stated earlier in this thread, I do not expect the Celtics to trade the Jays and start a rebuild in the short term. They will play this out further. They will look to trade anybody not named "Jay" and hope that a new mix will yield different results.  Maybe bank on health / COVID luck improving.

But if that doesn't work, and we're sitting in more or less the same spot as Jaylen approaches the final year of his deal, with Tatum having just two years left, the only smart option left will be to look to deal those guys for a rebuilding package. Holding onto them until they're gone would be franchise suicide.

I don't think we are there yet. Jayson's 23. Jaylen's 25. I'm not against trading anyone, but trading for a pick that you hope will be as good as what you have, in a few years, doesn't excite me.

I do have concerns over this teams make-up. Blowing it up just seems too early.

[Moranis]

For the blow it up crowd:  what’s the likelihood that any assets we receive in trade are individually or collectively as good as JT / JB?

10%?  25%?  50%?

If you're trading those guys, you're not getting comparable individual talent back.  Best case is you're getting a boatload of picks and you try to turn that asset haul over the next 2-3 years into a young up-and-coming team similar to, say, Memphis. Or what the Nets were before Kyrie & Durant went there.

That by no means makes championship contention very likely but it could provide a more sustainable future with better vibes and more competitiveness than what appears to be a stalled-out, frustrating .500 team slated for multiple first round exits before the Jays leave in free agency.

That doesn’t excite me.  I don’t want to trade young all-stars to be Memphis, or a Cleveland type team.

Crazy fact:  only nine franchises are more than one game above .500 this season

Yeah, I don't think those teams are going anywhere. They are regular season warriors playoff pretenders.

A lot of fool's gold there in term of how bright their futures are. Memphis has a sliver of a chance if JJJ can become an All-Star big man but I don't see Cleveland having any chance of challenging for a title in the future. They are on the road to nowhere and Memphis likely are too.

Cleveland depends on just how good Mobley can be.  If Mobley ends up a top 10 player (and he has that talent), then I do think Cleveland could be a contender if they can keep most of their young players (or at least they pick correctly on them).  They haven't even had Sexton for much of this year and have been playing very good ball.  If they get some value for Sexton this summer (or at the deadline) and Mobley and Garland keep progressing and Okoro develops into a solid 3 and D type player, then I absolutely think they could be a contender in 4-5 years when Mobley and Garland are just entering their prime. 

[celticsclay]

For the blow it up crowd:  what’s the likelihood that any assets we receive in trade are individually or collectively as good as JT / JB?

10%?  25%?  50%?

If you're trading those guys, you're not getting comparable individual talent back.  Best case is you're getting a boatload of picks and you try to turn that asset haul over the next 2-3 years into a young up-and-coming team similar to, say, Memphis. Or what the Nets were before Kyrie & Durant went there.

That by no means makes championship contention very likely but it could provide a more sustainable future with better vibes and more competitiveness than what appears to be a stalled-out, frustrating .500 team slated for multiple first round exits before the Jays leave in free agency.

That doesn’t excite me.  I don’t want to trade young all-stars to be Memphis, or a Cleveland type team.

Crazy fact:  only nine franchises are more than one game above .500 this season

Yeah, I don't think those teams are going anywhere. They are regular season warriors playoff pretenders.

A lot of fool's gold there in term of how bright their futures are. Memphis has a sliver of a chance if JJJ can become an All-Star big man but I don't see Cleveland having any chance of challenging for a title in the future. They are on the road to nowhere and Memphis likely are too.

Cleveland depends on just how good Mobley can be.  If Mobley ends up a top 10 player (and he has that talent), then I do think Cleveland could be a contender if they can keep most of their young players (or at least they pick correctly on them).  They haven't even had Sexton for much of this year and have been playing very good ball.  If they get some value for Sexton this summer (or at the deadline) and Mobley and Garland keep progressing and Okoro develops into a solid 3 and D type player, then I absolutely think they could be a contender in 4-5 years when Mobley and Garland are just entering their prime.

Yeah I don't think most people realize how good Mobley has looked. He probably goes number 1 in a redraft. Also, not high on Allen? I think he makes allstar game this year. He is basically averaging 17 and 11, 1.5 blocks and 70% shooting. Also been playing good d.