Management, I’m pleading with you; blow it up!

[footey]

Let’s face it: We’ve got one superstar in JT and one nice young role player, possible lunch pail kind of starter in the future, in Grant Williams. Timelord is hurt too much and fool’s gold. Smart is decent but going to become more expensive (probably overpaid) in the near-future. Romeo is a bust, and so is Nesmith in all likelihood. Pritchard is not gonna make it as a consistent role player. Richardson is ok, but not a guy to build around. Horford is in the twilight of his career. Playing Enes is a political liability, like it or not (personally cannot stand the CCP but we can’t have our team being targeted by CCP). Everyone else other than JB is crap. And JB is just Glen Rice Part II…nice player as a number three guy, but we’re not winning a championship with him as our number two.

There’s no shame in rebuilding again. It allows a clean break from the Ainge era and, as others have pointed it out, it’s now or delay the inevitable until 2023 or 2024. I’d rather start the process now, clear room for Beal in case he wants to join Tatum in 2022 or 2023, and hope we have the assets (or space or draft someone incredible) to add a big 3 to Tatum/Beal. With those two secure, the team becomes extremely profitable in the St. Louis market and our two superstars are happy to see what Brad can build the next 3-5 years (it would be like if PP was standing alone in 2005 with Tony Allen being our Grant Williams back in the day, we then brought in PP’s BFF shortly after, and then we had worked on eventually adding KG and depth…except Tatum is much younger than PP was in 2005, and Beal would make Tatum/Beal so profitable in St. Louis, probably the biggest or second biggest market without an NBA team). Heck, they could even make it fun by moving most everyone for picks and fielding a bunch of reclamation projects and over-the-hill types on cheap contracts until we get our Big 3. If Ime falters after Stevens is done rebuilding, we can bring Stevens back on the bench for his wizardry like Pat Riley did in Miami in the mid 2000s en route to a title.

The above seems like our best bet by far…we really are too constrained to find any other way to a title…

Calling JT a superstar this far into the season is delusional.

[boscel33]

Pass!  I've made my bed with , I'll keep sleeping in it!

[PhoSita]

Pass!  I've made my bed with , I'll keep sleeping in it!

Its a pretty tough bed to sleep in, imo. Lumpy. poor back support.

[Moranis]

Let’s face it: We’ve got one superstar in JT and one nice young role player, possible lunch pail kind of starter in the future, in Grant Williams. Timelord is hurt too much and fool’s gold. Smart is decent but going to become more expensive (probably overpaid) in the near-future. Romeo is a bust, and so is Nesmith in all likelihood. Pritchard is not gonna make it as a consistent role player. Richardson is ok, but not a guy to build around. Horford is in the twilight of his career. Playing Enes is a political liability, like it or not (personally cannot stand the CCP but we can’t have our team being targeted by CCP). Everyone else other than JB is crap. And JB is just Glen Rice Part II…nice player as a number three guy, but we’re not winning a championship with him as our number two.

There’s no shame in rebuilding again. It allows a clean break from the Ainge era and, as others have pointed it out, it’s now or delay the inevitable until 2023 or 2024. I’d rather start the process now, clear room for Beal in case he wants to join Tatum in 2022 or 2023, and hope we have the assets (or space or draft someone incredible) to add a big 3 to Tatum/Beal. With those two secure, the team becomes extremely profitable in the St. Louis market and our two superstars are happy to see what Brad can build the next 3-5 years (it would be like if PP was standing alone in 2005 with Tony Allen being our Grant Williams back in the day, we then brought in PP’s BFF shortly after, and then we had worked on eventually adding KG and depth…except Tatum is much younger than PP was in 2005, and Beal would make Tatum/Beal so profitable in St. Louis, probably the biggest or second biggest market without an NBA team). Heck, they could even make it fun by moving most everyone for picks and fielding a bunch of reclamation projects and over-the-hill types on cheap contracts until we get our Big 3. If Ime falters after Stevens is done rebuilding, we can bring Stevens back on the bench for his wizardry like Pat Riley did in Miami in the mid 2000s en route to a title.

The above seems like our best bet by far…we really are too constrained to find any other way to a title…

Calling JT a superstar this far into the season is delusional.

Why?  He is averaging 25.6 p, 8.6 r, and 3.8 a.  Boston is 9.6 points per 100 possessions better with him on the floor as opposed to him being on the bench.  He obviously isn't shooting the ball very well, which has affected some of his advanced metrics, but he is still producing solid raw numbers AND the team is a lot better when he is in the game.  Isn't that what a superstar is?  He obviously isn't in the same class as Giannis, Durant, and Curry, but there are of course different tiers of superstar and thus far this year he is pretty much in the Harden, Embiid, etc. tier at least as the numbers go. 

[ozgod]

Let’s face it: We’ve got one superstar in JT and one nice young role player, possible lunch pail kind of starter in the future, in Grant Williams. Timelord is hurt too much and fool’s gold. Smart is decent but going to become more expensive (probably overpaid) in the near-future. Romeo is a bust, and so is Nesmith in all likelihood. Pritchard is not gonna make it as a consistent role player. Richardson is ok, but not a guy to build around. Horford is in the twilight of his career. Playing Enes is a political liability, like it or not (personally cannot stand the CCP but we can’t have our team being targeted by CCP). Everyone else other than JB is crap. And JB is just Glen Rice Part II…nice player as a number three guy, but we’re not winning a championship with him as our number two.

I don't think we have any superstars on our team right now. I think part of the problem is we have two who think they are, when they're not there yet. Consistency is what makes players like KD, Harden, LeBum, Giannis et al superstars...we don't have anyone like that. JT and JB can occasionally come up with great games, accompanied by the correspondingly high usages, but they don't produce that efficiently enough and on a consistent enough basis. Even their approach is inconsistent, some nights (usually against good teams) they're switched on from the opening tip, other nights they wait till the 4th quarter to lift their game. It's a long season, lots of Covid disruptions and distractions, but that's what those guys really have to work on, to have the same application through as many games as possible. I think JT is close but he's not quite at that top tier. To be fair his supporting cast has been pretty average this year.

[CBS_Take a Report]

Let’s face it: We’ve got one superstar in JT and one nice young role player, possible lunch pail kind of starter in the future, in Grant Williams. Timelord is hurt too much and fool’s gold. Smart is decent but going to become more expensive (probably overpaid) in the near-future. Romeo is a bust, and so is Nesmith in all likelihood. Pritchard is not gonna make it as a consistent role player. Richardson is ok, but not a guy to build around. Horford is in the twilight of his career. Playing Enes is a political liability, like it or not (personally cannot stand the CCP but we can’t have our team being targeted by CCP). Everyone else other than JB is crap. And JB is just Glen Rice Part II…nice player as a number three guy, but we’re not winning a championship with him as our number two.

I don't think we have any superstars on our team right now. I think part of the problem is we have two who think they are, when they're not there yet. Consistency is what makes players like KD, Harden, LeBum, Giannis et al superstars...we don't have anyone like that. JT and JB can occasionally come up with great games, accompanied by the correspondingly high usages, but they don't produce that efficiently enough and on a consistent enough basis. Even their approach is inconsistent, some nights (usually against good teams) they're switched on from the opening tip, other nights they wait till the 4th quarter to lift their game. It's a long season, lots of Covid disruptions and distractions, but that's what those guys really have to work on, to have the same application through as many games as possible. I think JT is close but he's not quite at that top tier. To be fair his supporting cast has been pretty average this year.

TP Ozgod. Hallelujah! Someone tells it like it is. We do not have a superstar yet and these young men have been anointed this way too early in their career. We needed to acquire one to sit atop them and be dethroned by the Jays through earning it!! They show signs of potential to be that for this team. At least Tatum does. Jaylen needs to accept that he is a #2 or maybe even #3 on a championship contender.

[Rosco917]

Blow it up for what? We're dealing with the negative side of drafting essentially high school basketball players, who are reacting to the rules of a NBA players union gone terribly wrong.   

Many have never been schooled in the finer points of the game by talented college coaches nationwide. Instead, they've been convinced they're a finished product, told how special they are, owners give them millions of dollars a season to prove it and then simply pray they mature. Now, for some young players this BBIQ come's naturally (LeBron etc)... the Celtics just happen to have a pair that need time to see the forest through the trees, hopefully before their bodies giveaway or they go in free-agency.   

Besides, when things are really not going their way in basketball, they take a ride in the Lamborghini and suddenly all is forgotten.
 
Win a ring? What ring? They already have the ring. 


 

[PhoSita]

Why?  He is averaging 25.6 p, 8.6 r, and 3.8 a.  Boston is 9.6 points per 100 possessions better with him on the floor as opposed to him being on the bench.

What does Tatum do at an elite level this season other than get shots up?

32% usage rate and 53% TS is not good, point blank.

His assist rate is lower than last year.  His defensive rebounding is up, and overall his rebounding is pretty good for a wing.  He keeps his turnovers relatively low for such a high usage player.  His free throw rate is better than the last few years but still below 30%.

Harder to gauge defense, but I think as usual he is good on that end but not changing the game.


To me, the "superstar" category means more than volume scoring. It means your presence in the game changes the way the opponent operates.  You make life easier for your teammates and harder for the opponent. 

I don't think Tatum does that consistently enough, especially this season.  There is certainly value in having a guy who gets shots up, particularly on a team otherwise lacking in scoring outlets. But unless that shot-taker is truly elite, the team would probably be better with a more balanced offense. 

You definitely can't point to clutch performance for Tatum, which is the other common metric for judging a superstar. 

[Who]

Tatum is as much as a superstar as Carmelo Anthony was.

So depending on your opinion on whether Melo was real superstar or just an All-Star that got oversized media attention - that'll probably tell you where you are with Tatum in terms of being a superstar.

[Who]

Serious point here:

Take a superstar and give him a 2nd star in support in Jaylen Brown. Give him a solid but unexceptional supporting cast of Horford, Timelord, Smart, Schroder and guys like Grant Williams, J.Richardson, Pritchard, Romeo, Kanter, Nesmith ... how good is that team?

That is a 50+ win team with a legit superstar. Take all of the guys you consider superstars and tell me how many of those teams are not 50 win teams? How many are 55-60 win teams?

Why is this team fighting for .500 with Tatum? Why is he considered a superstar if he cannot deliver what these other superstars can deliver?

Tell me this team does not win 50+ games with James Harden or with Joel Embiid. Nevermind a Giannis or Steph Curry.

[Roy H.]

For the blow it up crowd:  what’s the likelihood that any assets we receive in trade are individually or collectively as good as JT / JB?

10%?  25%?  50%?

[PhoSita]

For the blow it up crowd:  what’s the likelihood that any assets we receive in trade are individually or collectively as good as JT / JB?

10%?  25%?  50%?

If you're trading those guys, you're not getting comparable individual talent back.  Best case is you're getting a boatload of picks and you try to turn that asset haul over the next 2-3 years into a young up-and-coming team similar to, say, Memphis. Or what the Nets were before Kyrie & Durant went there.

That by no means makes championship contention very likely but it could provide a more sustainable future with better vibes and more competitiveness than what appears to be a stalled-out, frustrating .500 team slated for multiple first round exits before the Jays leave in free agency.

[cltc5]

Serious point here:

Take a superstar and give him a 2nd star in support in Jaylen Brown. Give him a solid but unexceptional supporting cast of Horford, Timelord, Smart, Schroder and guys like Grant Williams, J.Richardson, Pritchard, Romeo, Kanter, Nesmith ... how good is that team?

That is a 50+ win team with a legit superstar. Take all of the guys you consider superstars and tell me how many of those teams are not 50 win teams? How many are 55-60 win teams?

Why is this team fighting for .500 with Tatum? Why is he considered a superstar if he cannot deliver what these other superstars can deliver?

Tell me this team does not win 50+ games with James Harden or with Joel Embiid. Nevermind a Giannis or Steph Curry.

Truth.  Celtics fandom and management need to wake up

[sgrogan]

Serious point here:

Take a superstar and give him a 2nd star in support in Jaylen Brown. Give him a solid but unexceptional supporting cast of Horford, Timelord, Smart, Schroder and guys like Grant Williams, J.Richardson, Pritchard, Romeo, Kanter, Nesmith ... how good is that team?

That is a 50+ win team with a legit superstar. Take all of the guys you consider superstars and tell me how many of those teams are not 50 win teams? How many are 55-60 win teams?

Why is this team fighting for .500 with Tatum? Why is he considered a superstar if he cannot deliver what these other superstars can deliver?

Tell me this team does not win 50+ games with James Harden or with Joel Embiid. Nevermind a Giannis or Steph Curry.

What point?
Harden has been to the conf finals once and lost, Jayson 2, Jaylon 3. I know the west has been stronger but, results.
Embiid, no conf finals, the J's have beat him in the playoffs.
Giannis, the J's beat him in the playoffs too, until he got a better cast.
Steph, he is better than both J's, Durrant the same, Klay so far.

The C's lack the clutch gene so far, but they are still young. The question for me is: have they peaked and are regressing, or is this a plateau before the ascension?

[Moranis]

Serious point here:

Take a superstar and give him a 2nd star in support in Jaylen Brown. Give him a solid but unexceptional supporting cast of Horford, Timelord, Smart, Schroder and guys like Grant Williams, J.Richardson, Pritchard, Romeo, Kanter, Nesmith ... how good is that team?

That is a 50+ win team with a legit superstar. Take all of the guys you consider superstars and tell me how many of those teams are not 50 win teams? How many are 55-60 win teams?

Why is this team fighting for .500 with Tatum? Why is he considered a superstar if he cannot deliver what these other superstars can deliver?

Tell me this team does not win 50+ games with James Harden or with Joel Embiid. Nevermind a Giannis or Steph Curry.

Again, depends on what you call a superstar.  If a superstar is only top 5 players, then no, Tatum isn't that, but if you are talking about the top 15 to 20 players, then sure Tatum is absolutely one of those.  And for the record, Golden State was 39-33 last year with a fairly similar team to this year. 

Boston has played a very difficult schedule with players in and out of the lineup.  The C's will go on a tear starting in mid-January to mid-March (18-7 should be the worst case if they are healthy) and after that 8-5 should be the worst case, so even looking at the worst case (again if they are mostly healthy), when Boston ends the year something like 26-12 in the worst case, I'd like to see all of those posting now continue making the same type of posts.

Schedule matters.  Health matters.  Boston has, and still has a couple more weeks of, a very difficult schedule and the roster has been mess because of covid and other injuries.  If Tatum and Brown are healthy starting in mid-January, Boston will shoot up the standings.