Management, I’m pleading with you; blow it up!

[droopdog7]

I’ve suspected for a couple of years that the Jays wouldn’t have the ability to be the duo to lead this team to contender status.  I think it’s beyond clear that is the case, though I’m not calling either one a bad player.  But JB is nothing close to a 1A kind of guy due to his poor handle, poor vision, and poor decision making.  It should be clear now why he doesn’t get the ball in crunch time.  Simply doesn’t have the ability to execute in those situations.

We’re on the wrong path and the only way to get off is by starting over.  You have to trade at least one of the Jays.  I’m okay with trading both.  And no, you’re not going to see me say that I think a guy sucks but want a kings ransom in return.  Get whatever you get for either one; multiple firsts, young guys, whatever.

The idea of building around these guys is frankly untenable for a number of reasons.  Don’t have assets to trade and don’t have cap space.  Both guys are better suited in lesser roles and it can’t happen here.

And yes, I know people gonna call me out as being reactionary.  But the evidence is there; has been there all along. 

[colincb]

King's ransom for a sale made under duress. The world doesn't work like that.

[droopdog7]

King's ransom for a sale made under duress. The world doesn't work like that.

Thats what I said, or at least what I meant to say.  I don’t think either is that guy, so I wouldn’t expect that package in return.

[cltc5]

Trade smart brown and Tatum for players that care more about playing team ball than getting their stats padded.  That’s the problem.  Two selfish players who are inconsistent.  I like smart but he’s inconsistent too and his value is enough that we can get something else.  Any Celtic fan should be DONE with this performance.  An 11 year rebuild and nothing but bust draft picks, poor coaching, and idiotic management moves to show for it.  Hate my comments if you want but something needs to change.  This is complete stagnation and it stinks!  No more excuses!

[Mahk E Mahk]

this sounds so very familiar…

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=105489.0

[PhoSita]

If they do this it'll be in the off-season. I kinda agree with you, but I doubt ownership or management have any appetite for starting over.

Starting over from this position, even assuming an awesome return for the Jays, will mean no playoffs for at least a few seasons.

But I think that realistically this is where it's been headed for a few seasons as the talent drain has continued unabated. I didn't see it that way before this season. I maintained optimism. Not anymore.

What I expect to happen is that they will shuffle things around for a couple years. Maybe try another coach at some point. But come summer 2023 or 2024, it'll be time to settle for picks and young players.

[GreenlyGreeny]

Let’s face it: We’ve got one superstar in JT and one nice young role player, possible lunch pail kind of starter in the future, in Grant Williams. Timelord is hurt too much and fool’s gold. Smart is decent but going to become more expensive (probably overpaid) in the near-future. Romeo is a bust, and so is Nesmith in all likelihood. Pritchard is not gonna make it as a consistent role player. Richardson is ok, but not a guy to build around. Horford is in the twilight of his career. Playing Enes is a political liability, like it or not (personally cannot stand the CCP but we can’t have our team being targeted by CCP). Everyone else other than JB is crap. And JB is just Glen Rice Part II…nice player as a number three guy, but we’re not winning a championship with him as our number two.

There’s no shame in rebuilding again. It allows a clean break from the Ainge era and, as others have pointed it out, it’s now or delay the inevitable until 2023 or 2024. I’d rather start the process now, clear room for Beal in case he wants to join Tatum in 2022 or 2023, and hope we have the assets (or space or draft someone incredible) to add a big 3 to Tatum/Beal. With those two secure, the team becomes extremely profitable in the St. Louis market and our two superstars are happy to see what Brad can build the next 3-5 years (it would be like if PP was standing alone in 2005 with Tony Allen being our Grant Williams back in the day, we then brought in PP’s BFF shortly after, and then we had worked on eventually adding KG and depth…except Tatum is much younger than PP was in 2005, and Beal would make Tatum/Beal so profitable in St. Louis, probably the biggest or second biggest market without an NBA team). Heck, they could even make it fun by moving most everyone for picks and fielding a bunch of reclamation projects and over-the-hill types on cheap contracts until we get our Big 3. If Ime falters after Stevens is done rebuilding, we can bring Stevens back on the bench for his wizardry like Pat Riley did in Miami in the mid 2000s en route to a title.

The above seems like our best bet by far…we really are too constrained to find any other way to a title…

[PhoSita]

There's very little evidence right now that JT is a superstar. He isn't even an elite scorer so far this season.  Hasn't been one for about a year now, excepting a few big scoring performances at the end of last season and playoffs.

If JT isn't hitting "bad" shots at a high percentage and breaking defenses with his step back 3, then he's just a volume scorer who doesn't get to the line very much, is not a great finisher at the rim, and though solid to good at many things, isn't elite at anything.  He's an All-Star, sure, but not close to being in that "superstar" category unless you think simply scoring 25 points per game counts.

[Birdman]

Think adding muscles hurt Tatum game..plus he and Pritchard are only 2 players I wouldn’t trade right now..everyone else is on the block

[LilRip]

Think adding muscles hurt Tatum game..plus he and Pritchard are only 2 players I wouldn’t trade right now..everyone else is on the block

I’d keep Romeo. And I’ve definitely not been on the Langford hype train (I even called Nesmith over him prior to the season) but he’s made a believer out of me. Good hustle, good defensive instincts, moves the ball quickly, decent stand still shooter, decent slasher, good off-ball movement. That’s a solid role player on a contender imo

[A Future of Stevens]

So theoretically, we have options 1 (or 1a) and worst case option 3. Both are good defenders, and both are under 26. Also both play the position which is the most difficult to find in the nba (well maybe a Mobley type center.)

I agree that this current core isn't working. Isn't there a middle ground between ramming our head against the wall and blowing it all up? We are in the era of player movement. We have a path to clearing cap space moving forward. If we whiff on a few mid tier stars a few years in a row, then sure nobody wants to play with the Jays and its probably over. Brown and Tatum seem popular with other players, so maybe we explore that avenue.

[Who]

So theoretically, we have options 1 (or 1a) and worst case option 3. Both are good defenders, and both are under 26. Also both play the position which is the most difficult to find in the nba (well maybe a Mobley type center.)

I agree that this current core isn't working. Isn't there a middle ground between ramming our head against the wall and blowing it all up? We are in the era of player movement. We have a path to clearing cap space moving forward. If we whiff on a few mid tier stars a few years in a row, then sure nobody wants to play with the Jays and its probably over. Brown and Tatum seem popular with other players, so maybe we explore that avenue.

Do we?

I thought that cap flexibility gained by trading Kemba for Horford was all gone after CBS gave contract extensions to Smart, Rob Williams and Josh Richardson.

[Who]

Think adding muscles hurt Tatum game..plus he and Pritchard are only 2 players I wouldn’t trade right now..everyone else is on the block

I’d keep Romeo. And I’ve definitely not been on the Langford hype train (I even called Nesmith over him prior to the season) but he’s made a believer out of me. Good hustle, good defensive instincts, moves the ball quickly, decent stand still shooter, decent slasher, good off-ball movement. That’s a solid role player on a contender imo

Romeo now down to 5ppg in 20mpg which is a very low scoring rate. His shooting numbers are falling after a hot start. His TS% is now down to 49.3% which is way way below average.

He is still the horrible offensive player that he was in the past.

[Who]

There's very little evidence right now that JT is a superstar. He isn't even an elite scorer so far this season.  Hasn't been one for about a year now, excepting a few big scoring performances at the end of last season and playoffs.

If JT isn't hitting "bad" shots at a high percentage and breaking defenses with his step back 3, then he's just a volume scorer who doesn't get to the line very much, is not a great finisher at the rim, and though solid to good at many things, isn't elite at anything.  He's an All-Star, sure, but not close to being in that "superstar" category unless you think simply scoring 25 points per game counts.

There is nothing I hate more than that Tatum step back 3.

That is the shot he takes because he cannot beat his man off the dribble because his handles aren't good enough & he is not quick enough and that step back 3 is the only shot he is capable of creating for himself. A desperation shot. I despise it.



Edit: You put up with that step back 3 with guys like Doncic, Harden and Trae Young because they give you huge doses of dribble penetration and playmaking to go with it. The step back 3 is the (low percentage) shot they have to take to keep defenses honest to create all those high percentage shots from driving.

This is the problem with Tatum and guys like Paul George. They do not give you that playmaking yet they still take all those step back 3s. This is a low percentage shot. One to be avoided. One you only live with because it opens up other things in your game which are far more effective / efficient. Or if forced into late in the shot clock. That's it.

The word is "settling". That is what Tatum does. That is what Paul George does. Settle for the easy shot instead of working hard for a good shot. It is weak and lazy.

I hate it.

[A Future of Stevens]

So theoretically, we have options 1 (or 1a) and worst case option 3. Both are good defenders, and both are under 26. Also both play the position which is the most difficult to find in the nba (well maybe a Mobley type center.)

I agree that this current core isn't working. Isn't there a middle ground between ramming our head against the wall and blowing it all up? We are in the era of player movement. We have a path to clearing cap space moving forward. If we whiff on a few mid tier stars a few years in a row, then sure nobody wants to play with the Jays and its probably over. Brown and Tatum seem popular with other players, so maybe we explore that avenue.

Do we?

I thought that cap flexibility gained by trading Kemba for Horford was all gone after CBS gave contract extensions to Smart, Rob Williams and Josh Richardson.

I mean define flexibility. Can we sign someone outright? No. But if we have a top 20 player willing to come here, we could move them all relatively easily (sure it will take draft assets.) I feel like the NBA has proven over the last few years that moving money isn't that hard. None of these contracts are the albatrosses that are unmoveable (think Wall, Westbrook, etc.)