NBA Season 2021-22

[gift]

Honestly pretty shocked the lakers came back and won there. Pretty impressive. That being said if ad is out a long time, and it looked bad, they are in trouble.

Wonder the kind of PEDs LeBron been taking. No way he can score his 23rd straight 25+ points at his current age.

He's definitely figured out how not to move unless he needs to.  You can see him conserving energy while he plays.  His basketball intelligence helps a lot here.  Plus, he hasn't played in 23 straight games.  He plays huge minutes for a stretch then sits out games with soreness.  Whether or not he's on PED's he's doing everything else he can do to average huge numbers.  Nobody is going to expect him to play much D nowadays.

Yeah, he’s moving about 15% less on the court than he did just two years ago on a per-minute basis.

15% less than two years ago? I remember 2-3 years back noticing how he had already cut down on his movement. In a couple more, he'll be relatively stationary.

A stationary Lebron still probably averages 20 / 6 / 6, haha.

I don't even doubt that lol

[footey]

The Athletic is doing a countdown of the top 75 players all time. 

Top 10:

10. Kobe
9. Duncan
8. Shaq
7. Bird
6. Wilt
5. Magic
4. Kareem
3. Russell
2. Lebron (just listed today)
1. Jordan (will announce tomorrow)

Seems about right to me.  Not sure who else I'd put in there. Oscar? Hakeem?  Durant?  Thing about Kobe is that he was pretty inefficient, but his usage was so high we get a little blinded by his numbers.  I think Durant should be considered top 10 when his career is finished.

[Roy H.]

The Athletic is doing a countdown of the top 75 players all time. 

Top 10:

10. Kobe
9. Duncan
8. Shaq
7. Bird
6. Wilt
5. Magic
4. Kareem
3. Russell
2. Lebron (just listed today)
1. Jordan (will announce tomorrow)

Seems about right to me.  Not sure who else I'd put in there. Oscar? Hakeem?  Durant?  Thing about Kobe is that he was pretty inefficient, but his usage was so high we get a little blinded by his numbers.  I think Durant should be considered top 10 when his career is finished.

The list is a good mix of stats, impact and winning.  Wilt has the fewest titles (2).  To knock Kobe of the list, I guess we need a guy with better stats and at least two titles.  Durant and Hakeem are probably the two guys you take under consideration there.

[slamtheking]

The Athletic is doing a countdown of the top 75 players all time. 

Top 10:

10. Kobe
9. Duncan
8. Shaq
7. Bird
6. Wilt
5. Magic
4. Kareem
3. Russell
2. Lebron (just listed today)
1. Jordan (will announce tomorrow)

Seems about right to me.  Not sure who else I'd put in there. Oscar? Hakeem?  Durant?  Thing about Kobe is that he was pretty inefficient, but his usage was so high we get a little blinded by his numbers.  I think Durant should be considered top 10 when his career is finished.

anti-Celtic bias as well as recency bias at its finest. 

1. Russell  --> 11 titles in 13 years.  enough said though I will add that his detractors that point to lower scoring stats for him ignore the fact that he didn't need to score more and did all the dirty work to win titles.  those that detract from him saying he had better teammates ignore that his ability to do the dirty work and drive the team to victory enabled his teammates to look better than they were.
2. Wilt  --> greatest individual player ever
3. Bird --> did stuff that no one did on the court nor has done since he retired.  end of career could have gone better but he was magnificent in his prime
4. Jordan -->  less titles than Russell, not the scorer/rebounder/passer that Wilt was, could not do what Bird did on the court.  won 6 titles in a watered down NBA in the 90's.  NBA really ramped up the star treatment by officials for him primarily after Bird and Magic retired.
5. Magic --> 5 titles on a stacked team.  Epitome of a PG that could run an offense and take over a game to carry his team to a win. 
(I go back and forth on Jordan and Magic between 4 and 5)

6. Kareem  --> incredible scorer, passer, rebounder and defender.
7. Oscar --> averaged a triple double before it was even a thing in a tougher time to do it.  incredibly under appreciated talent
8. Shaq --> pains me to put him this high because he really benefitted from the Jordan treatment.  Lots of foot shuffling and offensive fouls that went uncalled or called against the defender.  lessens his standing in my eyes
9. Lebron --> greatest player of his generation.  unbelievable endurance in his career.  even with 4 titles, he underachieved in my eyes.  thrived thanks to being given the star treatment to the Nth degree.  Lessens his standing for the same reason it lessens Shaq's. 
10. Olajuwon --> this is the really tough pick for me.  between Hakeem, Duncan and West.  Duncan has more titles but Hakeem got to 3 finals, including one in the 80's breaking up the run the Lakers had of championship appearances, and 2 where he dragged 2 underwhelming rosters to the title in back-to-back years between the Bulls title runs in the weak 90's.  due to the inferior talent on his title teams and his incredible talent, I give him a slight edge over Duncan's stable if unspectacular talents (not saying Duncan wasn't incredibly talented but 'spectacular' isn't an adjective used with Duncan)

not sure I'd put Kobe in top 20-25 either.  just another inefficient gunner that had the luxury of playing with Shaq to get 3 titles and with Pau Gasol to get 2 more.  Kobe wasn't the most impactful player on any of the title teams.

[moiso]

I'd replace Kobe with several players; 10 is just too high for him.  I think the guys already mentioned- Durant, Oscar, and Hakeem were all better players than Kobe was.

[Moranis]

Kobe as a top 10 player is ridiculous. 

[Roy H.]

not sure I'd put Kobe in top 20-25 either.  just another inefficient gunner that had the luxury of playing with Shaq to get 3 titles and with Pau Gasol to get 2 more.  Kobe wasn't the most impactful player on any of the title teams.

I'll concede that just about any all-star level guard / wing could have won multiple titles with Shaq.

I have a harder time seeing them do it with Gasol, though.  He was a 17 / 10 guy in LA, and 17 / 9 for his career.  That's not the guy who carries your team to a title.

And, you underrated Duncan in your other post, haha.  If winning matters -- and it does -- he's far above a guy like Oscar.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=duncati01&player_id2=roberos01

Look at Oscar's "per possession" stats.  Look at his playoff stats. 

[Moranis]

As hard as this is on a Celtics site, I don't think you can make a really reasonable argument that Bill should be ahead of Kareem.  In fact, I think you have an easier time arguing Kareem is the greatest player ever then you would arguing that Bill was better than Kareem.

[Moranis]

not sure I'd put Kobe in top 20-25 either.  just another inefficient gunner that had the luxury of playing with Shaq to get 3 titles and with Pau Gasol to get 2 more.  Kobe wasn't the most impactful player on any of the title teams.

I'll concede that just about any all-star level guard / wing could have won multiple titles with Shaq.

I have a harder time seeing them do it with Gasol, though.  He was a 17 / 10 guy in LA, and 17 / 9 for his career.  That's not the guy who carries your team to a title.

And, you underrated Duncan in your other post, haha.  If winning matters -- and it does -- he's far above a guy like Oscar.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=duncati01&player_id2=roberos01

Look at Oscar's "per possession" stats.  Look at his playoff stats.

Oscar's per 100 possession stats account for only his final season.  That said, Duncan was a better player than Oscar historically.

[Roy H.]

As hard as this is on a Celtics site, I don't think you can make a really reasonable argument that Bill should be ahead of Kareem.  In fact, I think you have an easier time arguing Kareem is the greatest player ever then you would arguing that Bill was better than Kareem.

How do you account for a guy who, in a period of 15 years, won two NCAA championships, 11 NBA championships, and a gold medal?  With all of those coming with him as the most impactful player?  And hell, if Russell doesn't get hurt in the '58 Finals, the Celts are probably winning that title, too. 

I wish we had advanced stats  and tracking data related to Russell's era, so that we could track how many shots he blocked, and how many he altered.

There's a non-zero chance that even with his vastly inferior offense, Russell's overall game was better than Kareem's.

[Vermont Green]

I think the top 5 are all correctly in this group, the exact order is easy to debate and really could be anything.  For example, I believe that Magic Johnson should be higher.  You recall he played center in the final game in place of Kareem for his first title.  He always sacrificed his own game for the good of the team and I don't think there is any player ever that could make others better the way that Magic could.  He could also take over when needed, that just was not usually Plan A. 

I also might have Bird ahead of Wilt.  Tough to compare such fundamentally different players.  I might even have Shaq ahead of Wilt.

As to Kobe, I feel he is a much top 10 as Duncan or Shaq  or Wilt.  Again, you could debate the exact order forever but I have no problem with him being in there.

[Moranis]

Kevin Love is just the 4th player in history with at least 14,000 points, 8,000 rebounds, and 1,400 made 3 pointers.  He joins Dirk, Kidd, and Lebron.

[gouki88]

The Athletic is doing a countdown of the top 75 players all time. 

Top 10:

10. Kobe
9. Duncan
8. Shaq
7. Bird
6. Wilt
5. Magic
4. Kareem
3. Russell
2. Lebron (just listed today)
1. Jordan (will announce tomorrow)

Seems about right to me.  Not sure who else I'd put in there. Oscar? Hakeem?  Durant?  Thing about Kobe is that he was pretty inefficient, but his usage was so high we get a little blinded by his numbers.  I think Durant should be considered top 10 when his career is finished.

anti-Celtic bias as well as recency bias at its finest. 

1. Russell  --> 11 titles in 13 years.  enough said though I will add that his detractors that point to lower scoring stats for him ignore the fact that he didn't need to score more and did all the dirty work to win titles.  those that detract from him saying he had better teammates ignore that his ability to do the dirty work and drive the team to victory enabled his teammates to look better than they were.
2. Wilt  --> greatest individual player ever
3. Bird --> did stuff that no one did on the court nor has done since he retired.  end of career could have gone better but he was magnificent in his prime
4. Jordan -->  less titles than Russell, not the scorer/rebounder/passer that Wilt was, could not do what Bird did on the court.  won 6 titles in a watered down NBA in the 90's.  NBA really ramped up the star treatment by officials for him primarily after Bird and Magic retired.
5. Magic --> 5 titles on a stacked team.  Epitome of a PG that could run an offense and take over a game to carry his team to a win. 
(I go back and forth on Jordan and Magic between 4 and 5)

6. Kareem  --> incredible scorer, passer, rebounder and defender.
7. Oscar --> averaged a triple double before it was even a thing in a tougher time to do it.  incredibly under appreciated talent
8. Shaq --> pains me to put him this high because he really benefitted from the Jordan treatment.  Lots of foot shuffling and offensive fouls that went uncalled or called against the defender.  lessens his standing in my eyes
9. Lebron --> greatest player of his generation.  unbelievable endurance in his career.  even with 4 titles, he underachieved in my eyes.  thrived thanks to being given the star treatment to the Nth degree.  Lessens his standing for the same reason it lessens Shaq's. 
10. Olajuwon --> this is the really tough pick for me.  between Hakeem, Duncan and West.  Duncan has more titles but Hakeem got to 3 finals, including one in the 80's breaking up the run the Lakers had of championship appearances, and 2 where he dragged 2 underwhelming rosters to the title in back-to-back years between the Bulls title runs in the weak 90's.  due to the inferior talent on his title teams and his incredible talent, I give him a slight edge over Duncan's stable if unspectacular talents (not saying Duncan wasn't incredibly talented but 'spectacular' isn't an adjective used with Duncan)

not sure I'd put Kobe in top 20-25 either.  just another inefficient gunner that had the luxury of playing with Shaq to get 3 titles and with Pau Gasol to get 2 more.  Kobe wasn't the most impactful player on any of the title teams.

You say anti-Celtic bias then completely discredit yourself by listing two Celtics above MJ (and Wilt at 2!?), and then you have Oscar ahead of LeBron? Your list is more questionable than theirs.

[kraidstar]

The Athletic is doing a countdown of the top 75 players all time. 

Top 10:

10. Kobe
9. Duncan
8. Shaq
7. Bird
6. Wilt
5. Magic
4. Kareem
3. Russell
2. Lebron (just listed today)
1. Jordan (will announce tomorrow)

Seems about right to me.  Not sure who else I'd put in there. Oscar? Hakeem?  Durant?  Thing about Kobe is that he was pretty inefficient, but his usage was so high we get a little blinded by his numbers.  I think Durant should be considered top 10 when his career is finished.

anti-Celtic bias as well as recency bias at its finest. 

1. Russell  --> 11 titles in 13 years.  enough said though I will add that his detractors that point to lower scoring stats for him ignore the fact that he didn't need to score more and did all the dirty work to win titles.  those that detract from him saying he had better teammates ignore that his ability to do the dirty work and drive the team to victory enabled his teammates to look better than they were.
2. Wilt  --> greatest individual player ever
3. Bird --> did stuff that no one did on the court nor has done since he retired.  end of career could have gone better but he was magnificent in his prime
4. Jordan -->  less titles than Russell, not the scorer/rebounder/passer that Wilt was, could not do what Bird did on the court.  won 6 titles in a watered down NBA in the 90's.  NBA really ramped up the star treatment by officials for him primarily after Bird and Magic retired.
5. Magic --> 5 titles on a stacked team.  Epitome of a PG that could run an offense and take over a game to carry his team to a win. 
(I go back and forth on Jordan and Magic between 4 and 5)

6. Kareem  --> incredible scorer, passer, rebounder and defender.
7. Oscar --> averaged a triple double before it was even a thing in a tougher time to do it.  incredibly under appreciated talent
8. Shaq --> pains me to put him this high because he really benefitted from the Jordan treatment.  Lots of foot shuffling and offensive fouls that went uncalled or called against the defender.  lessens his standing in my eyes
9. Lebron --> greatest player of his generation.  unbelievable endurance in his career.  even with 4 titles, he underachieved in my eyes.  thrived thanks to being given the star treatment to the Nth degree.  Lessens his standing for the same reason it lessens Shaq's. 
10. Olajuwon --> this is the really tough pick for me.  between Hakeem, Duncan and West.  Duncan has more titles but Hakeem got to 3 finals, including one in the 80's breaking up the run the Lakers had of championship appearances, and 2 where he dragged 2 underwhelming rosters to the title in back-to-back years between the Bulls title runs in the weak 90's.  due to the inferior talent on his title teams and his incredible talent, I give him a slight edge over Duncan's stable if unspectacular talents (not saying Duncan wasn't incredibly talented but 'spectacular' isn't an adjective used with Duncan)

not sure I'd put Kobe in top 20-25 either.  just another inefficient gunner that had the luxury of playing with Shaq to get 3 titles and with Pau Gasol to get 2 more.  Kobe wasn't the most impactful player on any of the title teams.

You say anti-Celtic bias then completely discredit yourself by listing two Celtics above MJ (and Wilt at 2!?), and then you have Oscar ahead of LeBron? Your list is more questionable than theirs.

You're right, very flawed list.
My greatest NBA players of all time:
1. Russell
2. Bird
3. Havlicek
4. Sam Jones
5. Cousy
6. Sharman
7. Cowens
8. Pierce
9. Parish
10. McHale

 

[BASS_THUMPER]

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