Woj: Celtics Trade Tristan Thompson To Atlanta For Kris Dunn, Fernando + A Pick

[Damiano Brancopreto]

Duncan Robinson, restricted free agent, I think would be the perfect fit for us... of course letting Fournier go

[Vermont Green]

Right now, we sit about $2M over the tax level.  If we do the Thompson for Dunn/Fernando as proposed, we save about $3M for 2021/22 and get under the tax.  That is great but if we then use the TPE we get to bring in a player, it is pure tax and also starts the clock for the 3 years out of 4 double penalties.  I suspect that the Celtics are willing to go tax for the right player.  We still have a huge hole at PF.  Bagley would be great but don't see why SAC would want to trade him.

I think their goal is to dump Dunn to save as much money as possible.  The team has no interest in contending this year.

I’ll be thrilled if I’m proven wrong.  This team still needs a good PF and a good SG.

I'm a Kris Dunn fan, but it sounds like there are some significant health concerns with his knee the more I've read.  He had an MCL sprain, rested it for about 10 months, then had a cleanup procedure, rested another 5 months, and still wasn't recovered, which presumably was a major reason he couldn't get on the court for more than a handful of games.  So yes, I think the plan is to move Kris Dunn to another team, as part of this deal or something separate.  Hopefully the pick they receive can help be compensation for a new player they might acquire.

If injuries are the issue for Dunn, that is OK, we'll take Huerter or Reddish instead.   

[Celtics2021]

Duncan Robinson, unrestricted free agent, I think would be the perfect fit for us... of course letting Fournier go

Robinson is restricted.  Also, it would be very difficult to construct a sign-and-trade with Miami that would make the cap math work.

[Vermont Green]

Right now, we sit about $2M over the tax level.  If we do the Thompson for Dunn/Fernando as proposed, we save about $3M for 2021/22 and get under the tax.  That is great but if we then use the TPE we get to bring in a player, it is pure tax and also starts the clock for the 3 years out of 4 double penalties.  I suspect that the Celtics are willing to go tax for the right player.  We still have a huge hole at PF.  Bagley would be great but don't see why SAC would want to trade him.

Bagley has issues with Sacramento. I think the Kings are actively shopping him.

https://www.si.com/nba/thunder/news/okc-thunder-marvin-bagley-is-perfect-trade-target

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2021/7/6/22566104/kings-bagley-explains-why-he-liked-tweet-suggesting-sacramento-trades-him

It’s an interesting idea because of the Duke connection with JT. If ever, Boston will have 2 former #2 picks from Duke who’ll try to rejuvenate their careers as Celtics.

That would be awesome but I am sure they are still going to want some decent assets back, probably have to start with Smart.

One thing I have thought of is that Fournier would be a good fit in ATL.  His family is in Orlando.  If we sign and trade Fournier to ATL, they become hard capped but maybe send Gallinari to SAC and we get Bagley?  That would be really nice but I am not sure ATL can be hard capped and still sign Collins even if they send out Gallinari.

[slamtheking]

BRobb:

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2021/08/could-celtics-expand-the-kris-dunn-trade-why-a-delay-signals-potential-new-phase-of-three-team-deal.html

The Celtics made one trade over the weekend official by dealing away Moses Brown to the Dallas Mavericks for veteran wing Josh Richardson. However, the team’s second three-team swap involving big man Tristan Thompson has not been processed yet, opening the door for a bigger transaction as free agency begins this week.

The original trade was agreed upon on Friday per league sources with the Celtics acquiring Kris Dunn and Bruno Fernando from the Atlanta Hawks in exchange for Tristan Thompson. The Hawks then agreed to send Thompson to the Sacramento Kings for guard Delon Wright, expanding the transaction to a three-team swap.

The expectation was that this deal would be completed by Sunday since it conceded with the end of the NBA league year and the expiration of one of Boston’s traded player exceptions (Enes Kanter’s) which would have been useful in pulling off the deal.

However, Sunday came and went with no deal being processed, which means the Kanter trade exception worth $4.7 million has expired unused for Boston. That doesn’t mean the original deal can’t still be executed as planned. Boston has a pair of other trade exceptions they can use to absorb the contracts of Dunn and Fernando while still creating a newer bigger trade exception for Tristan Thompson’s 2021-22 salary of $9.7 million.

Nonetheless, the Celtics in all likelihood did not let a trade exception go to waste this weekend for no good reason. Brad Stevens let that happen for one of two reasons:

1. The Celtics wanted to create a larger traded player exception: This is a simple, albeit more unlikely explanation. Waiting until the new league year to make the trade official allows Boston to create a bigger trade acceptation that’s worth $9.7 million instead of $9.2 million. That small bump could be beneficial down the line in a separate transaction for a bigger salary.

2. Boston and the other teams involved are searching for a way to expand the trade: Atlanta, Sacramento and Boston are all over the cap teams heading into free agency, leaving them limited options to improve their roster without trades. A complex three-team transaction like this involving significant outgoing salary and trade exceptions leaves plenty of avenues for other teams to get involved. Whether the trio of teams wants to serve as a facilitator for another transaction during their offseason or one of the teams wants to try to acquire a different player from a new team by finding a way to package him into this transaction, the opportunity is there to grow this deal.

The Celtics specifically have an opening to take back some more salary in the trade by using Tristan Thompson for salary matching if they find a good match. Since they are taking Dunn and Fernando into trade exceptions, they could take up to $14.8 million in salary in the trade if they didn’t want to create a trade exception with Thompson’s salary.

There are a host of players that make under $15 million and would be more appealing additions for Boston in such a deal. A few possible candidates that would fit into that salary spot were covered back in June as options for the leftover Gordon Hayward trade exception (worth $11 million). However, a few names that could be added to that list include

Malik Beasley $14.3 million

Thaddeus Young: $14.1 million

Joe Ingles: $14 million

Jonas Valanciunas: $14 million

TJ Warren $12.7 million

Marvin Bagley: $11.3 million

Additional compensation would need to be involved for any of those names via draft picks or other players but this is a route the Celtics could elect to pursue based on how their own free agent pursuits pan out. For instance, if Evan Fournier signs elsewhere, the door would be open for a Celtics to potentially take on more salary in a trade than anticipated and stay within budget.

There’s no guarantee a new element of the deal would be agreed upon after the delay but the door is now open for all parties involved to expand this transaction if they find a good fit. Being patient on the free agency front could end up paying off for Boston or another team involved in this original deal.

if the C's can finagle the cap to get any of those players, I really like Thad as Option A and Bagley as Option B.  Warren wouldn't be bad as Option C but I think Thad and Bagley would provide a more natural fit at PF for the C's.

[Damiano Brancopreto]

Duncan Robinson, unrestricted free agent, I think would be the perfect fit for us... of course letting Fournier go

Robinson is restricted.  Also, it would be very difficult to construct a sign-and-trade with Miami that would make the cap math work.

Sorry you are right, it's restricted (I will try to edit my post). Yeah it's difficult but I think a lethal shooting guard it's absolutely missing in our roster and he's still relatively young and extremely good...

[Celtics2021]

Right now, we sit about $2M over the tax level.  If we do the Thompson for Dunn/Fernando as proposed, we save about $3M for 2021/22 and get under the tax.  That is great but if we then use the TPE we get to bring in a player, it is pure tax and also starts the clock for the 3 years out of 4 double penalties.  I suspect that the Celtics are willing to go tax for the right player.  We still have a huge hole at PF.  Bagley would be great but don't see why SAC would want to trade him.

Bagley has issues with Sacramento. I think the Kings are actively shopping him.

https://www.si.com/nba/thunder/news/okc-thunder-marvin-bagley-is-perfect-trade-target

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2021/7/6/22566104/kings-bagley-explains-why-he-liked-tweet-suggesting-sacramento-trades-him

It’s an interesting idea because of the Duke connection with JT. If ever, Boston will have 2 former #2 picks from Duke who’ll try to rejuvenate their careers as Celtics.

That would be awesome but I am sure they are still going to want some decent assets back, probably have to start with Smart.

One thing I have thought of is that Fournier would be a good fit in ATL.  His family is in Orlando.  If we sign and trade Fournier to ATL, they become hard capped but maybe send Gallinari to SAC and we get Bagley?  That would be really nice but I am not sure ATL can be hard capped and still sign Collins even if they send out Gallinari.

The salaries would work for Atlanta, but not Sacramento, because Gallo makes too much for Bagley.  It would work if we got Barnes back, however, as their salaries are about $100k from each other.

Don't see anything like that happening at all, however.

[BudweiserCeltic]

It’s interesting this deal hasn’t been finalized yet.  They’ve got 75 minutes before the Kanter exception expires — if we go beyond that, we won’t get a full TPE for Thompson unless there’s a change in structure.  However, if we wait 75 minutes, the salaries work such that the Hawks wouldn’t have to include Fernando to match Dunn with Wright.

How do we know the reported terms from yesterday haven't become the final ones? Do you think we'll get another Woj tweet?

All we know is that none of the three teams have issued a press release about the deal, so it’s unlikely to have already occurred.  The Celtics would be losing something valuable ($9.2 million TPE) if it doesn’t go through tonight, so theoretically the terms should change in some fashion.

For what it's worth, Boston can still eat Dunn into the Kemba TPE and create a full Thompson TPE. Would assume there'd have to be a compelling reason to do that though, as you'd lose the Kemba TPE early in it's lifespan when you otherwise didn't have to.

EDIT: They could actually use the Theis TPE too, and if it's true that waiting until the year flips lets them leave Fernando out of the deal perhaps that's what they're doing, because it would leave the Kemba TPE intact and create a bigger Thompson TPE while saving you Bruno's guaranteed money (and the tax payments that come with it).

I think the Daniel Theis exception is about $5,000 short.

I think the rule is you have to fit into the exception plus $100k, so it might still work.  From CBAFAQ:

In some cases, teams have up to one year to acquire the replacement player(s) to complete a trade. These trades are considered non-simultaneous. In a non-simultaneous trade, a team can acquire only up to 100% plus $100,000 of the outgoing salary.

If that's the rule that applies to TPE, then great. Have been trying to find confirmation on that regard, but never managed... was always under the impression that with TPE it had to fit fully within the amount.

[nickagneta]

It’s interesting this deal hasn’t been finalized yet.  They’ve got 75 minutes before the Kanter exception expires — if we go beyond that, we won’t get a full TPE for Thompson unless there’s a change in structure.  However, if we wait 75 minutes, the salaries work such that the Hawks wouldn’t have to include Fernando to match Dunn with Wright.

How do we know the reported terms from yesterday haven't become the final ones? Do you think we'll get another Woj tweet?

All we know is that none of the three teams have issued a press release about the deal, so it’s unlikely to have already occurred.  The Celtics would be losing something valuable ($9.2 million TPE) if it doesn’t go through tonight, so theoretically the terms should change in some fashion.

For what it's worth, Boston can still eat Dunn into the Kemba TPE and create a full Thompson TPE. Would assume there'd have to be a compelling reason to do that though, as you'd lose the Kemba TPE early in it's lifespan when you otherwise didn't have to.

EDIT: They could actually use the Theis TPE too, and if it's true that waiting until the year flips lets them leave Fernando out of the deal perhaps that's what they're doing, because it would leave the Kemba TPE intact and create a bigger Thompson TPE while saving you Bruno's guaranteed money (and the tax payments that come with it).

I think the Daniel Theis exception is about $5,000 short.

I think the rule is you have to fit into the exception plus $100k, so it might still work.  From CBAFAQ:

In some cases, teams have up to one year to acquire the replacement player(s) to complete a trade. These trades are considered non-simultaneous. In a non-simultaneous trade, a team can acquire only up to 100% plus $100,000 of the outgoing salary.

If that's the rule that applies to TPE, then great. Have been trying to find confirmation on that regard, but never managed... was always under the impression that with TPE it had to fit fully within the amount.

Try cbafaq.com. They will most likely have the correct info.

[Roy H.]

It’s interesting this deal hasn’t been finalized yet.  They’ve got 75 minutes before the Kanter exception expires — if we go beyond that, we won’t get a full TPE for Thompson unless there’s a change in structure.  However, if we wait 75 minutes, the salaries work such that the Hawks wouldn’t have to include Fernando to match Dunn with Wright.

How do we know the reported terms from yesterday haven't become the final ones? Do you think we'll get another Woj tweet?

All we know is that none of the three teams have issued a press release about the deal, so it’s unlikely to have already occurred.  The Celtics would be losing something valuable ($9.2 million TPE) if it doesn’t go through tonight, so theoretically the terms should change in some fashion.

For what it's worth, Boston can still eat Dunn into the Kemba TPE and create a full Thompson TPE. Would assume there'd have to be a compelling reason to do that though, as you'd lose the Kemba TPE early in it's lifespan when you otherwise didn't have to.

EDIT: They could actually use the Theis TPE too, and if it's true that waiting until the year flips lets them leave Fernando out of the deal perhaps that's what they're doing, because it would leave the Kemba TPE intact and create a bigger Thompson TPE while saving you Bruno's guaranteed money (and the tax payments that come with it).

I think the Daniel Theis exception is about $5,000 short.

I think the rule is you have to fit into the exception plus $100k, so it might still work.  From CBAFAQ:

In some cases, teams have up to one year to acquire the replacement player(s) to complete a trade. These trades are considered non-simultaneous. In a non-simultaneous trade, a team can acquire only up to 100% plus $100,000 of the outgoing salary.

If that's the rule that applies to TPE, then great. Have been trying to find confirmation on that regard, but never managed... was always under the impression that with TPE it had to fit fully within the amount.

Try cbafaq.com. They will most likely have the correct info.

Yeah, it’s in the part about non-simultaneous trades I think

[colincb]

Right now, we sit about $2M over the tax level.  If we do the Thompson for Dunn/Fernando as proposed, we save about $3M for 2021/22 and get under the tax.  That is great but if we then use the TPE we get to bring in a player, it is pure tax and also starts the clock for the 3 years out of 4 double penalties.  I suspect that the Celtics are willing to go tax for the right player.  We still have a huge hole at PF.  Bagley would be great but don't see why SAC would want to trade him.

I think their goal is to dump Dunn to save as much money as possible.  The team has no interest in contending this year.

I’ll be thrilled if I’m proven wrong.  This team still needs a good PF and a good SG.

I'm a Kris Dunn fan, but it sounds like there are some significant health concerns with his knee the more I've read.  He had an MCL sprain, rested it for about 10 months, then had a cleanup procedure, rested another 5 months, and still wasn't recovered, which presumably was a major reason he couldn't get on the court for more than a handful of games.  So yes, I think the plan is to move Kris Dunn to another team, as part of this deal or something separate.  Hopefully the pick they receive can help be compensation for a new player they might acquire.

Dunn had ankle issues after the knee last season and had it scoped.

[Vermont Green]

Right now, we sit about $2M over the tax level.  If we do the Thompson for Dunn/Fernando as proposed, we save about $3M for 2021/22 and get under the tax.  That is great but if we then use the TPE we get to bring in a player, it is pure tax and also starts the clock for the 3 years out of 4 double penalties.  I suspect that the Celtics are willing to go tax for the right player.  We still have a huge hole at PF.  Bagley would be great but don't see why SAC would want to trade him.

Bagley has issues with Sacramento. I think the Kings are actively shopping him.

https://www.si.com/nba/thunder/news/okc-thunder-marvin-bagley-is-perfect-trade-target

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2021/7/6/22566104/kings-bagley-explains-why-he-liked-tweet-suggesting-sacramento-trades-him

It’s an interesting idea because of the Duke connection with JT. If ever, Boston will have 2 former #2 picks from Duke who’ll try to rejuvenate their careers as Celtics.

That would be awesome but I am sure they are still going to want some decent assets back, probably have to start with Smart.

One thing I have thought of is that Fournier would be a good fit in ATL.  His family is in Orlando.  If we sign and trade Fournier to ATL, they become hard capped but maybe send Gallinari to SAC and we get Bagley?  That would be really nice but I am not sure ATL can be hard capped and still sign Collins even if they send out Gallinari.

The salaries would work for Atlanta, but not Sacramento, because Gallo makes too much for Bagley.  It would work if we got Barnes back, however, as their salaries are about $100k from each other.

Don't see anything like that happening at all, however.

I agree that it is not likely but just playing around with possibilities to get Bagley:

Atl Out:   Gallinari, Dunn ($25M)
      In      Fournier, Thompson ($29M)

SAC Out:  Bagley, Wright (19.8M)
        IN:   Gallinari, Dunn ($25M)

BOS Out:  Fournier, Thompson ($29M)
         In:  Bagley, Wright ($20M)

Plus or minus a Damian Jones, I think there is something to work here.  Again, not likely, and Fournier would have to agree to go to ATL, but there is a possibility.  Or the simple way to do it could be just swap Fournier at $20M for Gallinari and he becomes our starting PF.

[Celtics2021]

Right now, we sit about $2M over the tax level.  If we do the Thompson for Dunn/Fernando as proposed, we save about $3M for 2021/22 and get under the tax.  That is great but if we then use the TPE we get to bring in a player, it is pure tax and also starts the clock for the 3 years out of 4 double penalties.  I suspect that the Celtics are willing to go tax for the right player.  We still have a huge hole at PF.  Bagley would be great but don't see why SAC would want to trade him.

Bagley has issues with Sacramento. I think the Kings are actively shopping him.

https://www.si.com/nba/thunder/news/okc-thunder-marvin-bagley-is-perfect-trade-target

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2021/7/6/22566104/kings-bagley-explains-why-he-liked-tweet-suggesting-sacramento-trades-him

It’s an interesting idea because of the Duke connection with JT. If ever, Boston will have 2 former #2 picks from Duke who’ll try to rejuvenate their careers as Celtics.

That would be awesome but I am sure they are still going to want some decent assets back, probably have to start with Smart.

One thing I have thought of is that Fournier would be a good fit in ATL.  His family is in Orlando.  If we sign and trade Fournier to ATL, they become hard capped but maybe send Gallinari to SAC and we get Bagley?  That would be really nice but I am not sure ATL can be hard capped and still sign Collins even if they send out Gallinari.

The salaries would work for Atlanta, but not Sacramento, because Gallo makes too much for Bagley.  It would work if we got Barnes back, however, as their salaries are about $100k from each other.

Don't see anything like that happening at all, however.

I agree that it is not likely but just playing around with possibilities to get Bagley:

Atl Out:   Gallinari, Dunn ($25M)
      In      Fournier, Thompson ($29M)

SAC Out:  Bagley, Wright (19.8M)
        IN:   Gallinari, Dunn ($25M)

BOS Out:  Fournier, Thompson ($29M)
         In:  Bagley, Wright ($20M)

Plus or minus a Damian Jones, I think there is something to work here.  Again, not likely, and Fournier would have to agree to go to ATL, but there is a possibility.  Or the simple way to do it could be just swap Fournier at $20M for Gallinari and he becomes our starting PF.

The problem is that Atlanta wants Delon Wright and Sacramento wants Tristan Thompson.  That’s how the deal was originally structured, but you’ve made it so Atlanta gets Thompson and we get Wright.

[jpotter33]

I wonder if there’s any way to squeeze either Hield or Barnes out of Sacramento as part of this deal. I think both would fit in different ways here - Hield as a sharp-shooting 2 if we go smaller or Barnes as our versatile 3/4 if we go bigger.

I realize this would impact our ability to have max space next year, but I’m growing more and more concerned with that approach given more free agents next year are coming off the board and Beal’s status questionable.

Including Cleveland/Nance somehow would also be an attractive additional option.

[Sketch5]

I wonder if there’s any way to squeeze either Hield or Barnes out of Sacramento as part of this deal. I think both would fit in different ways here - Hield as a sharp-shooting 2 if we go smaller or Barnes as our versatile 3/4 if we go bigger.

I realize this would impact our ability to have max space next year, but I’m growing more and more concerned with that approach given more free agents next year are coming off the board and Beal’s status questionable.

Including Cleveland/Nance somehow would also be an attractive additional option.

I'm wondering if Collins is who we would getting. Atl doens't seem to really want him, and might be a reason we aren't aggressive with Fournier. Seen reports of 4 for 80 mil, not sure how much that effects next summer. Plus the rumor of Smart possibly heading out and the trade not going trough, it would seem that they are waiting to be able to S&T some one.

Or Collins heading to SAC and we're getting other pieces.