Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder

[Donoghus]

The Celtic Fan Point Guard Kneejerk Special:

- Rozier was a terrible draft pick! Ainge sucks at drafting!!!
- Ainge is a terrible person for trading IT!!!
- IT is washed up; trading him for Kyrie was a genius move by Ainge!
- Rozier is awesome!
- Trading for Kyrie was a blunder. Ainge is stupid!
- Rozier is a ballhog/malcontent and needs to go! Do it Danny!
- Kemba is amazing!
- Kemba sucks!
- Rozier is awesome in Charlotte, another Ainge blunder!
- Bring IT back!!!!!


These things cannot all be true. folks. That's why nuance exists.

They're all true on CelticsStrong

Yeah, sadly this is true.

[kraidstar]

Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era. So many polarizing players, all with conspicuous strengths and flaws. Imagine if you could combine all the good traits:

Rondo - creative and dedicated passer
IT - pure shooting/scoring ability
Smart - leader, incredibly tough defender
Rozier - fearless athletic freak
Kyrie - great 1-on-1 skills
Kemba - good attitude, solid all-around game

Now imagine combining their negative traits:

Rondo - moody, inconsistent effort
IT - degenerative injuries, way too small to play defense
Smart - poor shooter who likes to shoot
Rozier - a #1 scorer with #4 credentials
Kyrie - narcissist, the world's worst teammate and leader
Kemba - often injured and sometimes too passive


There has got to be a nice middle ground somewhere!

[nickagneta]

Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era. So many polarizing players, all with certain specifics and flaws. Imagine if you could combine all the good traits:

Rondo - creative and dedicated passer
IT - pure shooting/scoring ability
Smart - leader, incredibly tough defender
Rozier - fearless athletic freak
Kyrie - great 1-on-1 skills
Kemba - good attitude

Now imagine combining their negative traits:

Rondo - moody, inconsistent effort
IT - way too small
Smart - poor shooter who likes to shoot
Rozier - a #1 scorer with #4 credentials
Kyrie - narcissist, the world's worst teammate and leader
Kemba - often injured and sometimes too passive


There has got to be a nice middle ground somewhere!

If Kemba is often injured, you have to make the same claim for Kyrie as he missed 37 regular season games in two years. Kemba will miss a very similar amount of regular season games in his two years here. Yes, less games played due to messed up Covid seasons, but almost same games missed.

[Roy H.]

Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era. So many polarizing players, all with conspicuous strengths and flaws. Imagine if you could combine all the good traits:

Rondo - creative and dedicated passer
IT - pure shooting/scoring ability
Smart - leader, incredibly tough defender
Rozier - fearless athletic freak
Kyrie - great 1-on-1 skills
Kemba - good attitude, solid all-around game

Now imagine combining their negative traits:

Rondo - moody, inconsistent effort
IT - degenerative injuries, way too small to play defense
Smart - poor shooter who likes to shoot
Rozier - a #1 scorer with #4 credentials
Kyrie - narcissist, the world's worst teammate and leader
Kemba - often injured and sometimes too passive


There has got to be a nice middle ground somewhere!

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.

[Silas]

Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era. So many polarizing players, all with conspicuous strengths and flaws. Imagine if you could combine all the good traits:

Rondo - creative and dedicated passer
IT - pure shooting/scoring ability
Smart - leader, incredibly tough defender
Rozier - fearless athletic freak
Kyrie - great 1-on-1 skills
Kemba - good attitude, solid all-around game

Now imagine combining their negative traits:

Rondo - moody, inconsistent effort
IT - degenerative injuries, way too small to play defense
Smart - poor shooter who likes to shoot
Rozier - a #1 scorer with #4 credentials
Kyrie - narcissist, the world's worst teammate and leader
Kemba - often injured and sometimes too passive


There has got to be a nice middle ground somewhere!

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.

I had forgotten about Payton.  He was 36 years young when he played his one year for the Cs.

[Celtics4ever]

Agree, I would rather have Terry and think this is where is our slide began.   

He may not be the perfect fit, but he played well with them for a spell and has far great upside than Kemba and fits the time line. 

We all know he had a beef with Kyrie and I support him for that.

[nickagneta]

Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era. So many polarizing players, all with conspicuous strengths and flaws. Imagine if you could combine all the good traits:

Rondo - creative and dedicated passer
IT - pure shooting/scoring ability
Smart - leader, incredibly tough defender
Rozier - fearless athletic freak
Kyrie - great 1-on-1 skills
Kemba - good attitude, solid all-around game

Now imagine combining their negative traits:

Rondo - moody, inconsistent effort
IT - degenerative injuries, way too small to play defense
Smart - poor shooter who likes to shoot
Rozier - a #1 scorer with #4 credentials
Kyrie - narcissist, the world's worst teammate and leader
Kemba - often injured and sometimes too passive


There has got to be a nice middle ground somewhere!

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.

Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

[RPGenerate]

Rozier was dead to me the second he ran to the idiotic media to air out the team's dirty laundry.

[Roy H.]

Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era. So many polarizing players, all with conspicuous strengths and flaws. Imagine if you could combine all the good traits:

Rondo - creative and dedicated passer
IT - pure shooting/scoring ability
Smart - leader, incredibly tough defender
Rozier - fearless athletic freak
Kyrie - great 1-on-1 skills
Kemba - good attitude, solid all-around game

Now imagine combining their negative traits:

Rondo - moody, inconsistent effort
IT - degenerative injuries, way too small to play defense
Smart - poor shooter who likes to shoot
Rozier - a #1 scorer with #4 credentials
Kyrie - narcissist, the world's worst teammate and leader
Kemba - often injured and sometimes too passive


There has got to be a nice middle ground somewhere!

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.

Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.

[nickagneta]

Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era. So many polarizing players, all with conspicuous strengths and flaws. Imagine if you could combine all the good traits:

Rondo - creative and dedicated passer
IT - pure shooting/scoring ability
Smart - leader, incredibly tough defender
Rozier - fearless athletic freak
Kyrie - great 1-on-1 skills
Kemba - good attitude, solid all-around game

Now imagine combining their negative traits:

Rondo - moody, inconsistent effort
IT - degenerative injuries, way too small to play defense
Smart - poor shooter who likes to shoot
Rozier - a #1 scorer with #4 credentials
Kyrie - narcissist, the world's worst teammate and leader
Kemba - often injured and sometimes too passive


There has got to be a nice middle ground somewhere!

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.

Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.

Great point. TP.

[kraidstar]

Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era. So many polarizing players, all with conspicuous strengths and flaws. Imagine if you could combine all the good traits:

Rondo - creative and dedicated passer
IT - pure shooting/scoring ability
Smart - leader, incredibly tough defender
Rozier - fearless athletic freak
Kyrie - great 1-on-1 skills
Kemba - good attitude, solid all-around game

Now imagine combining their negative traits:

Rondo - moody, inconsistent effort
IT - degenerative injuries, way too small to play defense
Smart - poor shooter who likes to shoot
Rozier - a #1 scorer with #4 credentials
Kyrie - narcissist, the world's worst teammate and leader
Kemba - often injured and sometimes too passive


There has got to be a nice middle ground somewhere!

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.

Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.

Yeah, with modern tech that would have been a meltdown for the ages. Kenny was decent but never lived up to his potential. Really symbolic of the mediocrity of the era.

And Rick Pitino wouldn't have made it out of here alive. Good lord, imagine if he had been on twitter then. No way he doesn't dive down that rabbit hole in a full-on nuclear blast.

The Joe Johnson fiasco would be legendary as well, especially coming on the heels of the Billups Blunder. Fire Departments across New England would be busy extinguishing blazes from molten servers.

Ron Mercer. Jerome Moiso. Raef LaFrentz. Mark Blount.

And Vin Baker... sweet heavens...

[wiley]

Well, since it's a sports blog we can use hindsight all day...in hindsight, Rozier for Kemba was a mistake. 

It was a mistake of the majority of this blog as well, who somehow decided that Rozier sucks and is horrible and will always be crap.  This despite what he was clearly capable of (see playoffs prior to Kyrie arrival).

As a Rozier fan, I nonetheless supported the trade for Kemba as it was such a refreshing change from Kyrie.  Also, when a player I like is getting bashed to pieces on Celticsstrong sometimes that influences my opinon of trades...like...yes player I like go forth and prosper elsewhere.  Anyway, Kemba was awesome prior to his knee woes.

So, instead of criticizing Ainge, who I hold in highest esteem, I'll just say hindsight has proven this deal wasn't the best for the C's.

However, things aren't done yet.  Kemba could go off in the playoffs and this whole thing reverses course again.

(also, just want to add two reasons I like Rozier...physical profile, rebounds, and low turnover rate.  I hate turnovers.  I think being a low turnover player makes up a great deal for a few too many shots...I much prefer a missed shot to a turnover).

[ozgod]

In Boston, Rozier played 5433 minutes.  During that time, he never shot over 40% from the field in any season.  He never had an eFG% above .500. He was quite bad as a shooter, although he did have one good year from 3PT (38%, which he nullified by shooting 41% from 2PT).

To his credit, he worked his butt off to improve his outside chart. Last year his efficiency was still mediocre, but it has been excellent this year.  He’s a better player than he was for sure.

But also keep in mind, he is charlottes shooting guard.  He leads their team in shots per game, even in front of Gordon Hayward.

How would that work here? How effective is the following lineup?

Timelord
Tatum
Brown
Rozier
Smart

With that roster construction, I would rather have Kemba. Rozier never would have had the freedom to chuck up as many shots as he wanted.

That's what a lot of people miss when looking at raw stats...it's about player fit as much as it is about their raw output. Terry was never going to take a backseat role.  And that's fine, he fits better in Charlotte. Also keep in mind that until this season, with LaMelo being drafted and Graham having the season he had last year that there were rumors that Terry would have had to come off the bench to accommodate LaMelo. Instead, Graham was the one who eventually gave up the starting spot.

[RodyTur10]

In Boston, Rozier played 5433 minutes.  During that time, he never shot over 40% from the field in any season.  He never had an eFG% above .500. He was quite bad as a shooter, although he did have one good year from 3PT (38%, which he nullified by shooting 41% from 2PT).

To his credit, he worked his butt off to improve his outside chart. Last year his efficiency was still mediocre, but it has been excellent this year.  He’s a better player than he was for sure.

But also keep in mind, he is charlottes shooting guard.  He leads their team in shots per game, even in front of Gordon Hayward.

How would that work here? How effective is the following lineup?

Timelord
Tatum
Brown
Rozier
Smart

With that roster construction, I would rather have Kemba. Rozier never would have had the freedom to chuck up as many shots as he wanted.

That's what a lot of people miss when looking at raw stats...it's about player fit as much as it is about their raw output. Terry was never going to take a backseat role.  And that's fine, he fits better in Charlotte. Also keep in mind that until this season, with LaMelo being drafted and Graham having the season he had last year that there were rumors that Terry would have had to come off the bench to accommodate LaMelo. Instead, Graham was the one who eventually gave up the starting spot.

Actually Walker is taking more shots per 36 than Rozier and has a higher usage. That despite Walker is playing alongside two All Stars and Rozier isn't playing with two 24+ scorers. During that '17/18 playoff run Rozier was an excellent complement to Tatum and Brown.

The problem was Irving. It was clear Rozier wasn't happy to be just a back-up PG. That's why he left and we let him.
If we had known beforehand that Irving and Horford would be leaving, I'm sure the discussion on Rozier would have been very different. Wasn't the reason we didn't trade Rozier prior, because he was insurance in case Irving would leave in free agency or got injured?

I agree with the premise of this topic. Signing Kemba was a big mistake. It was not what we needed.
A panic signing. And perhaps the biggest problem the front office has to deal with right now.

We are looking to resign Fournier, Timelord and Smart in the near future. That trio will cost you about $60M in annual salary to retain. Brown and Tatum won't be on rookie deals anymore, that's a guaranteed $60M as well. So with these five you're at around $120M on a longterm basis. Nine other roster spots will easily add up to $20M. So that's $140M, add Walker's salary and we're at about $175M. That's Brooklyn/Golden State cap level, with huge luxury tax payments.

[Celtics4ever]

Who has the better career ahead of them?  Terry.  He is playing every night, doesn't have  a chronic injury.  Terry is still improving although I think he is getting near his potential level.  Kemba is in decline.   Overall, Kemba might have the better career but not from henceforth or the in the time frame of the signing.