Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder

[LilRip]

The biggest problem with having scary Terry on your roster is that his expectation of his role exceeds his actual ability. I think he’s plenty talented and if he’s the 4th best player on the team,  that’s probably a really good team. Unfortunately, Rozier wants to play like the 1st or 2nd option and if that’s the case, the team probably hovers at about 0.500.

Doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Rozier didn't freak out when Devonte Graham emerged as a lead scorer in Charlotte. He stayed in his lane and had a nice season. Next year Hayward shows up, and Rozier doesn't freak out. He improves, but doesn't get in Hayward's way. They have young players just like us but theirs are improving more than ours.

It surely must have occurred to you that we are under .500 right now. That Rozier toyed with Walker and Smart last night.

Maybe we didn’t watch the same game. Smart locked Rozier up after the 1st quarter.

And is it him staying out of Hayward’s way? Or does Hayward have this awesome ability of being able to deliver what a team needs? When GH was here (contrary to what some might think), he was great. Not max-contract great but he definitely helped others become great. That’s not something we can say about Terry. Matter of fact, when Rozier was here, playing with Kyrie, Brown, Tatum and Hayward, he didn’t say anything either but he often played selfishly and it culminated in the off-season. Or did you miss that interview?

Hayward took his awesome ability from here over to there. Decided here wasn't conducive to his awesomeness, but there was. Where Terry was.

We now have Walker and Smart, and everything you are complaining about concerning Rozier (minus a couple of interviews) is happening here with them. I didn't like how Rozier handled things at the end, but the C's did make him odd man out, and he resented it.

He thought he was better, and he eventually backed up that claim.

I’d say there’s 30Mn reasons why Hayward chose Charlotte over us (and also Indy?) but we’re getting sidetracked. The conversation isn’t about where or why Hayward decided to sign. Fact is, Terry is still taking the most shots on the team and it’s only this year (career year!) where he’s been decent. He plays like the teams number 1-2 option because that’s how he plays his game.

Odd man out? He played 79 games at 23mpg (that’s roughly half the game). He didn’t start because Kyrie was here. I don’t know in what planet, whether round or flat, would any team start Rozier over Kyrie.

You are right though in the sense that he thought he was better. However, he hasn’t backed up that claim coz Kyrie is still a better player than him and if Rozier was in Brooklyn, he’d likely come off the bench and hate it.

[jambr380]

Rozier had to go.  He was a cancer.  No real getting around that.  That doesn't mean Kemba should have been the target though.  I do think that was a mistake by Ainge as Walker never really made sense for the team.  They didn't need a score first PG, especially one that isn't an elite shooter.  Team needed someone more like Brogdon, who should have been the target that summer.

I'm not so sure. Tatum was coming off a season averaging 15.7ppg and Brown 13ppg. The signs were probably there for Tatum, but there was no guarantee Brown was going to turn into a 25ppg scorer. Signing an All-NBA talent in Kemba was an obvious move and one everybody was relieved about after losing Kyrie. Not only for the talent replacement, but because all of our max FAs were jumping ship.

I get it, Brogdon is probably now a better fit, but I don't regret shipping off Terry. He had totally worn out his welcome here. Happy that he has the freedom to do what he wants in CHA; he would not have had that here.

[nickagneta]

Rozier had to go.  He was a cancer.  No real getting around that.  That doesn't mean Kemba should have been the target though.  I do think that was a mistake by Ainge as Walker never really made sense for the team.  They didn't need a score first PG, especially one that isn't an elite shooter.  Team needed someone more like Brogdon, who should have been the target that summer.

Says the man who wanted to trade for James Harden.

Rozier was pushed down below Kyrie and Marcus Smart into a role akin to what Brad Wanamaker had last year. He's a fairly efficient 20 ppg scorer now. I agree it became unmanageable, but let's not pretend the team didn't put him in a place that threatened his career.

Can't help but think if Kemba was on Charlotte the last two years he would have put up numbers equal to or better than Rozier.

Let's not confuse better talent with better opportunity.

[KG Living Legend]

Rozier had to go.  He was a cancer.  No real getting around that.  That doesn't mean Kemba should have been the target though.  I do think that was a mistake by Ainge as Walker never really made sense for the team.  They didn't need a score first PG, especially one that isn't an elite shooter.  Team needed someone more like Brogdon, who should have been the target that summer.

I'm not so sure. Tatum was coming off a season averaging 15.7ppg and Brown 13ppg. The signs were probably there for Tatum, but there was no guarantee Brown was going to turn into a 25ppg scorer. Signing an All-NBA talent in Kemba was an obvious move and one everybody was relieved about after losing Kyrie. Not only for the talent replacement, but because all of our max FAs were jumping ship.

I get it, Brogdon is probably now a better fit, but I don't regret shipping off Terry. He had totally worn out his welcome here. Happy that he has the freedom to do what he wants in CHA; he would not have had that here.

 Just watched Moneyball again last night. You see Kemba is the classic example. Looks great, feels great for fans.

 In the words of Pete. " Is Johnny Damon a good player? Yes. Is he worth 7.5 million per season. Absolutely not"

 Same goes for Kemba. Terrible overpay.

[jambr380]

Rozier had to go.  He was a cancer.  No real getting around that.  That doesn't mean Kemba should have been the target though.  I do think that was a mistake by Ainge as Walker never really made sense for the team.  They didn't need a score first PG, especially one that isn't an elite shooter.  Team needed someone more like Brogdon, who should have been the target that summer.

I'm not so sure. Tatum was coming off a season averaging 15.7ppg and Brown 13ppg. The signs were probably there for Tatum, but there was no guarantee Brown was going to turn into a 25ppg scorer. Signing an All-NBA talent in Kemba was an obvious move and one everybody was relieved about after losing Kyrie. Not only for the talent replacement, but because all of our max FAs were jumping ship.

I get it, Brogdon is probably now a better fit, but I don't regret shipping off Terry. He had totally worn out his welcome here. Happy that he has the freedom to do what he wants in CHA; he would not have had that here.

 Just watched Moneyball again last night. You see Kemba is the classic example. Looks great, feels great for fans.

 In the words of Pete. " Is Johnny Damon a good player? Yes. Is he worth 7.5 million per season. Absolutely not"

 Same goes for Kemba. Terrible overpay.

With Tatum and Brown elevating so quickly, it is fine if you don't like Kemba's current fit, but he was absolutely worth the max last season; and we certainly weren't the only ones willing to give it to him. The injury isn't great, but I've liked what I've seen from him the past few games when he realized his 3 wasn't falling. Instead of continuing to fire away, he was finding ways to get better shots for himself and his teammates.

And I agree that Rozier has super-intriguing talent, and I liked him his first 3 years in Boston, but it just wasn't going to work out for him here. Good for him on succeeding - maybe he can actually get himself a better contract than the once thought overpaid one he is on now.

[Vermont Green]

I was all for drafting Haliburton pre-draft. That's the kind of PG I'm always looking for. Great size, guard multiple positions. Great floor leader. 

 Prichard is solid. So I give him a point there. Haliburton would have made a world of difference on this team and I knew it.

 I would have traded 4 firsts to get him. All 3 picks this year plus a future pick if needed.

Not sure what this has to do with Terry Rozier but 4 Firsts to move up from 14 to 12?  Wow, I guess you really do like Tyrese Haliburton.  I felt (as I am sure many did) that Haliburton was an interesting prospect but not that good.  I would definitely have been happy with say 14 and 30 (which we traded anyway) for 12 but 14, 26, 30 and a future first to move up 2 spots?

But again, this has nothing to do with the Rozier vs. Walker debate.

[JBcat]

Charlotte is an ideal situation for him when healthy Ball runs the point with Hayward a solid secondary playmaker where Rozier can be the shooting guard on offense and much of the time guard the opposing PG. 

Rozier wouldn’t have solved our PG problem.

[indeedproceed]

Rozier had to go.  He was a cancer.  No real getting around that.  That doesn't mean Kemba should have been the target though.  I do think that was a mistake by Ainge as Walker never really made sense for the team.  They didn't need a score first PG, especially one that isn't an elite shooter.  Team needed someone more like Brogdon, who should have been the target that summer.

Says the man who wanted to trade for James Harden.

Rozier was pushed down below Kyrie and Marcus Smart into a role akin to what Brad Wanamaker had last year. He's a fairly efficient 20 ppg scorer now. I agree it became unmanageable, but let's not pretend the team didn't put him in a place that threatened his career.

Can't help but think if Kemba was on Charlotte the last two years he would have put up numbers equal to or better than Rozier.

Let's not confuse better talent with better opportunity.

Okay, but let's not deny talent either. As a starter Rozier has gone for 18.0 pts, 4.6 rebs, 4.1 asts, 56.6 TS% in 33mpg over 140 games.

That's a competent starting PG who has missed a total of 9 games over the last 4 seasons. In no world are we worse off with Rozier here this year over Kemba.

I'm not saying all that to crap on Danny, I think because of how things went down Kyrie's last year here, it was always a matter of when not if Rozier was gonna go. But I do think we as a fanbase liked to downplay him because of what he wasn't (a franchise PG) instead of celebrating him for what he was (a heck of a player and capable starter)

[Moranis]

Rozier had to go.  He was a cancer.  No real getting around that.  That doesn't mean Kemba should have been the target though.  I do think that was a mistake by Ainge as Walker never really made sense for the team.  They didn't need a score first PG, especially one that isn't an elite shooter.  Team needed someone more like Brogdon, who should have been the target that summer.

I'm not so sure. Tatum was coming off a season averaging 15.7ppg and Brown 13ppg. The signs were probably there for Tatum, but there was no guarantee Brown was going to turn into a 25ppg scorer. Signing an All-NBA talent in Kemba was an obvious move and one everybody was relieved about after losing Kyrie. Not only for the talent replacement, but because all of our max FAs were jumping ship.

I get it, Brogdon is probably now a better fit, but I don't regret shipping off Terry. He had totally worn out his welcome here. Happy that he has the freedom to do what he wants in CHA; he would not have had that here.

It isn't about scoring it is about realizing that 20 year old Tatum and 22 year old Brown were your only real shot at winning a title and putting the right players around them to help them realize that goal.  Walker isn't the right player because by the time Tatum and Brown reach their prime, Walker isn't going to be able to meaningfully contribute.  After not making moves at the 2019 trade deadline, that summer was absolutely when the team should have started to pivot to truly and meaningfully building around Tatum.  It should have been readily apparent he was the guy that had to reach his full potential for Boston to ever really contend, and Boston needed to really be focused on the moves to make that happen.  I just don't think Walker was the right player for that.  I have no issue with Walker's contract in a vacuum, but for this particular team Walker was the wrong choice.  As I said, Rozier wasn't the right choice either.

[Moranis]

Rozier had to go.  He was a cancer.  No real getting around that.  That doesn't mean Kemba should have been the target though.  I do think that was a mistake by Ainge as Walker never really made sense for the team.  They didn't need a score first PG, especially one that isn't an elite shooter.  Team needed someone more like Brogdon, who should have been the target that summer.

Says the man who wanted to trade for James Harden.

Rozier was pushed down below Kyrie and Marcus Smart into a role akin to what Brad Wanamaker had last year. He's a fairly efficient 20 ppg scorer now. I agree it became unmanageable, but let's not pretend the team didn't put him in a place that threatened his career.

Can't help but think if Kemba was on Charlotte the last two years he would have put up numbers equal to or better than Rozier.

Let's not confuse better talent with better opportunity.

Okay, but let's not deny talent either. As a starter Rozier has gone for 18.0 pts, 4.6 rebs, 4.1 asts, 56.6 TS% in 33mpg over 140 games.

That's a competent starting PG who has missed a total of 9 games over the last 4 seasons. In no world are we worse off with Rozier here this year over Kemba.

I'm not saying all that to crap on Danny, I think because of how things went down Kyrie's last year here, it was always a matter of when not if Rozier was gonna go. But I do think we as a fanbase liked to downplay him because of what he wasn't (a franchise PG) instead of celebrating him for what he was (a heck of a player and capable starter)

Those numbers are worse than Walker had last year with Boston.  They are also basically the same as Walker since the Clipper game on February 5th.  Now Rozier has been healthier than Walker but Walker had only missed 6 games in the 4 seasons prior to coming to Boston.  Sometimes players get hurt.  And Rozier has been shown to take shots like he is a #1 player, even though he isn't a #1 player.  I'm not really sure Boston is better with Rozier than with Walker this year.  Perhaps a couple of more regular season wins, but hte team is far more likely to advance further in the playoffs with Walker than Rozier, because Walker is quite simply a better player than Rozier.

[nickagneta]

Rozier had to go.  He was a cancer.  No real getting around that.  That doesn't mean Kemba should have been the target though.  I do think that was a mistake by Ainge as Walker never really made sense for the team.  They didn't need a score first PG, especially one that isn't an elite shooter.  Team needed someone more like Brogdon, who should have been the target that summer.

Says the man who wanted to trade for James Harden.

Rozier was pushed down below Kyrie and Marcus Smart into a role akin to what Brad Wanamaker had last year. He's a fairly efficient 20 ppg scorer now. I agree it became unmanageable, but let's not pretend the team didn't put him in a place that threatened his career.

Can't help but think if Kemba was on Charlotte the last two years he would have put up numbers equal to or better than Rozier.

Let's not confuse better talent with better opportunity.

Okay, but let's not deny talent either. As a starter Rozier has gone for 18.0 pts, 4.6 rebs, 4.1 asts, 56.6 TS% in 33mpg over 140 games.

That's a competent starting PG who has missed a total of 9 games over the last 4 seasons. In no world are we worse off with Rozier here this year over Kemba.

I'm not saying all that to crap on Danny, I think because of how things went down Kyrie's last year here, it was always a matter of when not if Rozier was gonna go. But I do think we as a fanbase liked to downplay him because of what he wasn't (a franchise PG) instead of celebrating him for what he was (a heck of a player and capable starter)

All true. Rozier, especially this year, has played well in Charlotte. He is a good player.

But he would have been a horrible fit here and his fit in Charlotte was very good because he was essentially taking over the role Kemba left behind for him to fill.

[Somebody]

Rozier had to go.  He was a cancer.  No real getting around that.  That doesn't mean Kemba should have been the target though.  I do think that was a mistake by Ainge as Walker never really made sense for the team.  They didn't need a score first PG, especially one that isn't an elite shooter.  Team needed someone more like Brogdon, who should have been the target that summer.

Says the man who wanted to trade for James Harden.

Rozier was pushed down below Kyrie and Marcus Smart into a role akin to what Brad Wanamaker had last year. He's a fairly efficient 20 ppg scorer now. I agree it became unmanageable, but let's not pretend the team didn't put him in a place that threatened his career.

Can't help but think if Kemba was on Charlotte the last two years he would have put up numbers equal to or better than Rozier.

Let's not confuse better talent with better opportunity.

Okay, but let's not deny talent either. As a starter Rozier has gone for 18.0 pts, 4.6 rebs, 4.1 asts, 56.6 TS% in 33mpg over 140 games.

That's a competent starting PG who has missed a total of 9 games over the last 4 seasons. In no world are we worse off with Rozier here this year over Kemba.

I'm not saying all that to crap on Danny, I think because of how things went down Kyrie's last year here, it was always a matter of when not if Rozier was gonna go. But I do think we as a fanbase liked to downplay him because of what he wasn't (a franchise PG) instead of celebrating him for what he was (a heck of a player and capable starter)

Those numbers are worse than Walker had last year with Boston.  They are also basically the same as Walker since the Clipper game on February 5th.  Now Rozier has been healthier than Walker but Walker had only missed 6 games in the 4 seasons prior to coming to Boston.  Sometimes players get hurt.  And Rozier has been shown to take shots like he is a #1 player, even though he isn't a #1 player.  I'm not really sure Boston is better with Rozier than with Walker this year.  Perhaps a couple of more regular season wins, but hte team is far more likely to advance further in the playoffs with Walker than Rozier, because Walker is quite simply a better player than Rozier.

Kemba is certainly a better player than Rozier, but I'd be happy with Rozier taking shots like he's an offensive #1 when he's averaging 60.4% TS (+3.3% rTS) and 40.8% from three on 8.1 attempts per game.

[kraidstar]

The Celtic Fan Point Guard Kneejerk Special:

- Rozier was a terrible draft pick! Ainge sucks at drafting!!!
- Ainge is a terrible person for trading IT!!!
- IT is washed up; trading him for Kyrie was a genius move by Ainge!
- Rozier is awesome!
- Trading for Kyrie was a blunder. Ainge is stupid!
- Rozier is a ballhog/malcontent and needs to go! Do it Danny!
- Kemba is amazing!
- Kemba sucks!
- Rozier is awesome in Charlotte, another Ainge blunder!
- Bring IT back!!!!!


These things cannot all be true. folks. That's why nuance exists.

[nickagneta]

The Celtic Fan Point Guard Kneejerk Special:

- Rozier was a terrible draft pick! Ainge sucks at drafting!!!
- Ainge is a terrible person for trading IT!!!
- IT is washed up; trading him for Kyrie was a genius move by Ainge!
- Rozier is awesome!
- Trading for Kyrie was a blunder. Ainge is stupid!
- Rozier is a ballhog/malcontent and needs to go! Do it Danny!
- Kemba is amazing!
- Kemba sucks!
- Rozier is awesome in Charlotte, another Ainge blunder!
- Bring IT back!!!!!


These things cannot all be true. folks. That's why nuance exists.

They're all true on CelticsStrong

[td450]

Rozier had to go.  He was a cancer.  No real getting around that.  That doesn't mean Kemba should have been the target though.  I do think that was a mistake by Ainge as Walker never really made sense for the team.  They didn't need a score first PG, especially one that isn't an elite shooter.  Team needed someone more like Brogdon, who should have been the target that summer.

Says the man who wanted to trade for James Harden.

Rozier was pushed down below Kyrie and Marcus Smart into a role akin to what Brad Wanamaker had last year. He's a fairly efficient 20 ppg scorer now. I agree it became unmanageable, but let's not pretend the team didn't put him in a place that threatened his career.

Can't help but think if Kemba was on Charlotte the last two years he would have put up numbers equal to or better than Rozier.

Let's not confuse better talent with better opportunity.

Okay, but let's not deny talent either. As a starter Rozier has gone for 18.0 pts, 4.6 rebs, 4.1 asts, 56.6 TS% in 33mpg over 140 games.

That's a competent starting PG who has missed a total of 9 games over the last 4 seasons. In no world are we worse off with Rozier here this year over Kemba.

I'm not saying all that to crap on Danny, I think because of how things went down Kyrie's last year here, it was always a matter of when not if Rozier was gonna go. But I do think we as a fanbase liked to downplay him because of what he wasn't (a franchise PG) instead of celebrating him for what he was (a heck of a player and capable starter)

Those numbers are worse than Walker had last year with Boston.  They are also basically the same as Walker since the Clipper game on February 5th.  Now Rozier has been healthier than Walker but Walker had only missed 6 games in the 4 seasons prior to coming to Boston.  Sometimes players get hurt.  And Rozier has been shown to take shots like he is a #1 player, even though he isn't a #1 player.  I'm not really sure Boston is better with Rozier than with Walker this year.  Perhaps a couple of more regular season wins, but hte team is far more likely to advance further in the playoffs with Walker than Rozier, because Walker is quite simply a better player than Rozier.

"And Rozier has been shown to take shots like he is a #1 player, even though he isn't a #1 player. "

Sure. So does Kemba. I don't really know if Rozier would have adapted to his place on this roster or not, and been happy scoring 15 ppg and dishing more. What I'm quite certain of is that Walker cannot adapt.

Walker is absolutely a lesser player than Rozier. That ship has sailed.

You can argue about the scoring, although I think Rozier's numbers are clearly better in any recent context you choose. But the difference in physicality, defense and rebounding is huge. And Walker is not a player who brings any intangibles, unless you count his sunny disposition.

Ultimately, neither guy probably was ideal. But whatever your final opinion is, we got less for Rozier than we should, and he would have been better than Walker or Smart if we kept him.