Author Topic: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...  (Read 17821 times)

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Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #120 on: March 25, 2021, 04:33:28 PM »

Offline NKY fan

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If Theis really is going to get $12-15M/yr, how on earth were we only able to get Mo Wagner and Luke Kornet for him? Seems like a misevaluation of valuation.

The same way Evan Fournier only got 2 2nd rounders... No one wants to give up value for a guy who could walk in free agency.
That’s why I was proposing swapping picks when trading Theis .. obviously he wouldn’t bring in a FRP on his own but if we sent a 21 unprotected and get a 23 unprotected from Charlotte could have been ok. It’s amazing how much Celtics fans overvalue our players. I bet Langford and Nesmith would bring in less than Theis if Danny tried to trade them ..
Downside now is Danny will draft another project at 15 and will fall in love with him and not know how useful he can be until 2025

Re: Theis to Chicago for Mo Wagner...Teague to ORL...More Coming?
« Reply #121 on: March 25, 2021, 04:40:22 PM »

Offline Celtics2021

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Really like this move, Wagner feels like a real forward thinking pickup and it pushed us under the cap. I get people are attached to Theis but Wagner is as close to an approximation of Theis as you're going to find and he is less redundant to Timelord and TT than Theis was. I expect Wagner will be a full rotation player for us within 2 seasons.

Without any of Theis' defense which was his best contribution.

Mo Wagner is one of the worst defenders in the league. He is slow immobile cannot cover smaller quicker players, cannot cover the PnR and offers no shot blocking at the rim because he cannot jump.
Well, his defensive metrics tell a very different story.

defensive RAPTOR: +4.5
DBPM: +0.9

Problem is, he ain't a switchable defender like Theis. We'll have to use him in a drop scheme, like we do whenever Timelord is on the court. Don't like the fit in our defensive system. That said, he's a great fit on the offensive side of the ball.

If we're going to talk RAPTOR, I would note that TimeLord is -0.2 on defense, and Theis is 2.5.  Should we start Wagner ahead of TL?  First time I've looked at RAPTOR this year, but I have noticed for a while that TL always seems to have one of the worst +/- ratios when I check the box score, so I'm not above saying there's something to it.

Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #122 on: March 25, 2021, 05:08:00 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Goodbye, Daniel Theis, you will be missed.

Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #123 on: March 25, 2021, 05:08:05 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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This looks to be completely a house cleaning, salary move to me.

The Celtics get under the tax, and get 2 easy to cut bigs to hold roster places while they wait on the buyout market.

Sorry to see Theis go, but this means our wishes of seeing more TL are about to be fulfilled.  ;D
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Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #124 on: March 25, 2021, 05:09:39 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Please no KO

Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #125 on: March 25, 2021, 05:13:23 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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To add to the earlier posts on Mo's defense, or lack there of.... this appeared in SoSH's discussion of the trade.

tl;dr - Mo maybe German, but he ain't Theis. Weak defense, loads of turnovers, and lots and lots of fouls....hmmm, maybe he is a bit like Theis. ;D

2018 Pre-Draft Scouting Report

"Wagner's obvious draw is his solid jump shot for a near 7-footer. He made 63 threes in 39 games and shot over 39 percent from that range for the second consecutive season. Wagner made 24 pick-and-pop jumpers, though he was even more efficient when rolling to the basket, making 18 of 22 attempts. He also showed the ability to attack closeouts and score on the move, having converted 14 of 22 drives to the hoop out of spot-ups. Wagner also did a nice job of timing his cuts to the basket and finishing (25-of-32).

Offensive weaknesses

Wagner only graded out in the 38th percentile in post-ups, as he struggled against physicality. He finished in the 37th percentile out of isolation. Playing 27.6 minutes per game, he totaled 33 assists. If his jumper isn't falling, it'll most likely be an ineffective performance from Wagner. It's also easy to question if his heavier feet will prevent him from beating defenders off the dribble or finishing at the rim.

Defensive outlook

Defense could be an issue. Wagner graded in the 27th percentile when guarding the post, where opponents easily scored through him and pushed him off his ground. He wasn't much better around the perimeter (36th percentile in spot-ups). Wagner will struggle with closeouts, and he seems unlikely to be switchable in pick-and-roll coverage.

Rookie-year projection

He could see minutes as a rookie just for his ability to stretch the floor. He'll help improve spacing and add a shot-maker to the frontcourt. He'll likely do a lot of spotting up and less post or inside work. And he won't be able to play long stretches due to his defense.

Projected role: Stretch-big reserve

Just as we saw with Kaminsky, Wagner's lack of athleticism and toughness down low will keep his ceiling in check. He won't be able to pull off some of the moves in the NBA we saw him execute in college. However, bigs who can shoot are always in demand. And though Kaminsky isn't a must-start player, he's bound to last just for his three-ball. Wagner can do the same while offering more intensity and competitiveness. "

Wizards Player Evaluations

"
Per our analytics guru, Kevin Broom, Wagner is an elite charge-drawer (I never heard this term before, but there it is). He led the league with 1.70 charges drawn per 48 minutes and was 4th in total charges drawn (27).

(Makes me think of another Wizards (#12 instead of #21) that took pride in that department until being shipped unceremoniously to Phoenix by Ernie and Tommy. I’m not saying Wagner will be traded, but it does seem likely.)

Wagner can also shoot from deep although his accuracy in the NBA hasn’t matched what he did in college.

At Michigan he averaged better than 39% on threes in his sophomore and junior years. But then his accuracy (and volume) took a hit in the NBA: about 28% in his first season, and 31% this past year (both years on 1.8 attempts/game). This is an improvement, but still far from NBA level for a player in his role (stretch 4 or backup 5).

But there are other positives in the shooting department. Wagner is a solid FT shooter at over 82% (for comparison, that’s better than Bradley Beal at the same point in his career). A lot of times, there is correlation between free throw shooting and three-point shooting, and Wagner is still young. Moreover, what I find impressive is that he improved his FT shooting in the NBA — he was a 70% FT shooter at Michigan. This does signify he is a hard worker, at least in my eyes.

When you look at Wagner’s FG% things look better: he’s shooting 54.5% compared to 41.5% in his rookie year.

Fouling, turnovers: the argument against
As the Wizards defense this year was historically bad, it may be harder to put in perspective the following stats, but they do raise red flags. According to Kevin Broom,

Fouling is a BIG issue with Wagner. He committed 8.5 fouls per 100 team possessions — 2nd most in the league among players with at least 500 minutes.

Turnovers are also a problem. He was at 3.7 per 100 team possessions, 8th highest in the league among players with at least 500 minutes.

I didn’t run the numbers when Wagner did not share the floor with IT, but it probably is worth doing to get a more effective measurement of just how much these issues are big.

Conclusion
Inconclusive.

It’s great Tommy Sheppard brought him here (and reportedly also for draft workouts in 2018) but it’s unfortunate his development has not been too visible.

Since Wagner has another year on his contract, I don’t see him going anywhere in the near future as his trade value has plummeted. But he could potentially be part of a larger draft day trade as his salary is non-negligible. There is no doubt in my mind that he can be a solid rotation NBA player, but I have also serious doubts he can develop to that role in D.C. given the limitations and focus of Brooks."
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
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Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #126 on: March 25, 2021, 05:14:21 PM »

Offline jambr380

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This looks to be completely a house cleaning, salary move to me.

The Celtics get under the tax, and get 2 easy to cut bigs to hold roster places while they wait on the buyout market.

Sorry to see Theis go, but this means our wishes of seeing more TL are about to be fulfilled.  ;D

Yeah, I mean if it is true that we can cut one of them and sign a buy-out FA like Aldridge or Porter, then this will be much easier to digest. If this is it and we don’t even get a 2nd for our troubles, then it is a perplexing decision to say the least. The money was so close on Theis and Wagner/Kornet that it didn’t seem necessary otherwise.

Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #127 on: March 25, 2021, 05:21:55 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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This looks to be completely a house cleaning, salary move to me.

The Celtics get under the tax, and get 2 easy to cut bigs to hold roster places while they wait on the buyout market.

Sorry to see Theis go, but this means our wishes of seeing more TL are about to be fulfilled.  ;D

Yeah, I mean if it is true that we can cut one of them and sign a buy-out FA like Aldridge or Porter, then this will be much easier to digest. If this is it and we don’t even get a 2nd for our troubles, then it is a perplexing decision to say the least. The money was so close on Theis and Wagner/Kornet that it didn’t seem necessary otherwise.
it does appear to be about salaries. plus, they decided that Theis, who is the final year of his contract, would be too expensive next year. so really they traded a few months rental of him.

see below:

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@dangercart
Post-Fournier, pre-Theis, the Celtics were $1.6M above the tax w/ pending $150k bonuses for Fournier if they make the 2nd and 3rd rounds of the playoffs. Post-Theis, they're $920k under, even if they make the ECF
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #128 on: March 25, 2021, 06:28:28 PM »

Offline liam

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It will be interesting to see what Brad can do with some big centers. This team needed a change and it got it.

Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #129 on: March 25, 2021, 06:37:44 PM »

Offline RJ87

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It will be interesting to see what Brad can do with some big centers. This team needed a change and it got it.

I got a feeling fans shouldn't get attached to these guys. Especially Kornet. Seems prime to be waived.
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Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #130 on: March 25, 2021, 06:39:14 PM »

Offline liam

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It will be interesting to see what Brad can do with some big centers. This team needed a change and it got it.

I got a feeling fans shouldn't get attached to these guys. Especially Kornet. Seems prime to be waived.

I can't see Kornet not being waved. He should be replaced by buy out Kelly O.

Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #131 on: March 25, 2021, 06:56:31 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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Fournier is a good addition coming off the bench. Hit a late game three or two?

If Wagner survives the buyout period seems ok. Upside perhaps playing in a Celtic's system that requires defense...even though their defense ain't happenin' this season.

Teague had been playing really well so get rid of him.
Theis was going to be too expensive and Green is still in the NBA which for him, is a victory.

Is this setting up the roster for next year with some great new future acquisition?


Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #132 on: March 25, 2021, 06:58:54 PM »

Offline liam

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Fournier is a good addition coming off the bench. Hit a late game three or two?

If Wagner survives the buyout period seems ok. Upside perhaps playing in a Celtic's system that requires defense...even though their defense ain't happenin' this season.

Teague had been playing really well so get rid of him.
Theis was going to be too expensive and Green is still in the NBA which for him, is a victory.

Is this setting up the roster for next year with some great new future acquisition?

Part of these trades have to be Danny wanting Brad to play TIMELORD and Pritchard. Brad doesn't have a choice now.

Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #133 on: March 25, 2021, 07:05:35 PM »

Offline liam

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Goodbye, Daniel Theis, you will be missed.

He will be missed. Chicago is going to love him!

Re: Theis & Green to Chicago for Mo Wagner & Luke Kornet...Teague to ORL...
« Reply #134 on: March 25, 2021, 08:04:58 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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Fournier is a good addition coming off the bench. Hit a late game three or two?

If Wagner survives the buyout period seems ok. Upside perhaps playing in a Celtic's system that requires defense...even though their defense ain't happenin' this season.

Teague had been playing really well so get rid of him.
Theis was going to be too expensive and Green is still in the NBA which for him, is a victory.

Is this setting up the roster for next year with some great new future acquisition?

Part of these trades have to be Danny wanting Brad to play TIMELORD and Pritchard. Brad doesn't have a choice now.

Good point.