Shams Says John Collins Is Obtainable...

[Vermont Green]

If Celts plan to obtain Collins, one of Smart or Walker would have to go

If it's Walker, do we believe Smart can handle the PG duties.  I know we have PP too, but he is a rook and will probably hit the wall at some point.

We need to end up with a decent pick out of a trade of Kemba to make this work.  I am not sure how we could do that but Kemba would need to bring back a player, likely one on an even worse contract, and a good pick.  Not sure who is going to give us that for Kemba.  Someone might give us a good pick for Smart I guess if you want to go that route.

As to Smart as the primary PG, we were 8-3 to start the season with that.  I don't think that is a problem.  We might be better with Smart and Collins as starters than Kemba and Theis (or Ojeleye or GWilliams).  That would be the whole point of the trade.  To be a net upgrade to the team.

[todd_days_41]

If Celts plan to obtain Collins, one of Smart or Walker would have to go

Agreed -- whether in this trade or a subsequent one.

to wdleehi's question, Hawks don't have a lot of bad contracts. Can't see them needing to move Capela, for example. I suspect they'd prefer return value to moving another player.

Smart & Theis for Collins & Snell is a pretty clean trade.

The question is, would the Hawks want another guard

They already have Huerter,  Bogdonovich

So I can see why they rather obtain a 1st round pick

Those guys have highly different profiles from Marcus Smart.

Perhaps

But also there are only so many mins to go around

They also have Hunter, Reddish

Just cant see them taking Smart if a 1st is available instead.

OKC and Rockets for example have a ton of them

I just disagree. Smart would face zero minutes crunch on the Hawks. He fills a glaring need for them. Presumably, they're interested in competing now, or they wouldn't have signed Bogdon and Danilo. Smart's not overpaid. Etc etc....

I think most GMs would rather have Smart than a pick, presuming it'd be top 10 or so protected.

 

[Moranis]

Here's a 3-way proposal.  It's probably terrible -- forgive my first message board trade attempt:

Bulls get: Kemba Walker
Hawks get: Bulls 2021 1st, Grant Williams, Garrett Temple
Celtics get: Otto Porter Jr., John Collins, Kris Dunn.  Celtics use Hayward TPE to fit in Porter, Kanter TPE to fit in Dunn, and Grant's salary to match Collins.  This leaves them with a new TPE that equals Kemba's contract.

Bulls get an upgrade at their PG/SG position (Kemba replaces Temple who starts for them in a combo guard role).  They're the 9th seed, so it lets them make a playoff push with a star vet under contract in the future.  The Hawks get potentially a good pick for Collins, a PF in Grant who probably fits better next to someone like Capela, and a veteran combo guard to help take some of the burden off of Trey Young (especially with Rondo out).  Celtics get Collins as well as terrific perimeter defender in Kris Dunn (when he returns from injury), and an even bigger TPE to use for the offseason/next year.  Porter Jr. might prove as useful as Grant/Semi, but probably not much more than that.  He's essentially an expiring that lets Chicago get involved in the deal.

Additionally, this would give the Celtics some luxury tax flexibility next offseason.  This could be useful in getting Collins to resign for less than the max (my biggest concern is I don't think Collins at the max is a great idea) -- as he's a restricted free agent, other teams would be less likely to extend an offer sheet as they know the Celtics are capable of matching and would not be subject to the tax if they did.

I forgive you lol but yeah no way Kemba gets that package.
At this point, I think he’s a negative asset with the age/inj/contract concerns.

Welcome to the board though!

There is also no way the Hawks do that.

[SparzWizard]

If Celts plan to obtain Collins, one of Smart or Walker would have to go

If it's Walker, do we believe Smart can handle the PG duties.  I know we have PP too, but he is a rook and will probably hit the wall at some point.

We need to end up with a decent pick out of a trade of Kemba to make this work.  I am not sure how we could do that but Kemba would need to bring back a player, likely one on an even worse contract, and a good pick.  Not sure who is going to give us that for Kemba.  Someone might give us a good pick for Smart I guess if you want to go that route.

As to Smart as the primary PG, we were 8-3 to start the season with that.  I don't think that is a problem.  We might be better with Smart and Collins as starters than Kemba and Theis (or Ojeleye or GWilliams).  That would be the whole point of the trade.  To be a net upgrade to the team.

Also the downside of trading Kemba is...it'll affect how free agents view Boston as a team. "The Celtics dumped Isaiah Thomas, do not go to them. They are not a loyal team" mantra thanks to Anthony Davis' dad, who influenced his son to go to the West coast. Gave Kemba a max contract and dump him 1.5 year later, dang. But I'm all up for trading Kemba though, if it means getting some key rotational players back and a pick.

[Who]

Trading Kemba for a couple of high end role players would be an interesting idea if Collins was acquired.

Less need for Kemba's shot creation. More need for glue guys.

I'd rather have Collins than Kemba long term.

[bdm860]

If Celts plan to obtain Collins, one of Smart or Walker would have to go

If it's Walker, do we believe Smart can handle the PG duties.  I know we have PP too, but he is a rook and will probably hit the wall at some point.

We need to end up with a decent pick out of a trade of Kemba to make this work.  I am not sure how we could do that but Kemba would need to bring back a player, likely one on an even worse contract, and a good pick.  Not sure who is going to give us that for Kemba.  Someone might give us a good pick for Smart I guess if you want to go that route.

As to Smart as the primary PG, we were 8-3 to start the season with that.  I don't think that is a problem.  We might be better with Smart and Collins as starters than Kemba and Theis (or Ojeleye or GWilliams).  That would be the whole point of the trade.  To be a net upgrade to the team.

Also the downside of trading Kemba is...it'll affect how free agents view Boston as a team. "The Celtics dumped Isaiah Thomas, do not go to them. They are not a loyal team" mantra thanks to Anthony Davis' dad, who influenced his son to go to the West coast. Gave Kemba a max contract and dump him 1.5 year later, dang. But I'm all up for trading Kemba though, if it means getting some key rotational players back and a pick.

When players start staying away from the Clippers (traded Blake 6 months after signing him to a max extension with a serious recruitment effort including a look at his future jersey retirement ceremony) or if they start staying away from Philly (trading Horford away after 1 year, not giving Butler a max), then I'll start worrying about players staying away from Boston.

[gift]

If Celts plan to obtain Collins, one of Smart or Walker would have to go

If it's Walker, do we believe Smart can handle the PG duties.  I know we have PP too, but he is a rook and will probably hit the wall at some point.

We need to end up with a decent pick out of a trade of Kemba to make this work.  I am not sure how we could do that but Kemba would need to bring back a player, likely one on an even worse contract, and a good pick.  Not sure who is going to give us that for Kemba.  Someone might give us a good pick for Smart I guess if you want to go that route.

As to Smart as the primary PG, we were 8-3 to start the season with that.  I don't think that is a problem.  We might be better with Smart and Collins as starters than Kemba and Theis (or Ojeleye or GWilliams).  That would be the whole point of the trade.  To be a net upgrade to the team.

Also the downside of trading Kemba is...it'll affect how free agents view Boston as a team. "The Celtics dumped Isaiah Thomas, do not go to them. They are not a loyal team" mantra thanks to Anthony Davis' dad, who influenced his son to go to the West coast. Gave Kemba a max contract and dump him 1.5 year later, dang. But I'm all up for trading Kemba though, if it means getting some key rotational players back and a pick.

When players start staying away from the Clippers (traded Blake 6 months after signing him to a max extension with a serious recruitment effort including a look at his future jersey retirement ceremony) or if they start staying away from Philly (trading Horford away after 1 year, not giving Butler a max), then I'll start worrying about players staying away from Boston.

yep, I'm not sure how the relative higher standard for Boston gained momentum among fans but it's unlikely to be something that's applied by anyone of consequence in the league.

[todd_days_41]

Trading Kemba for a couple of high end role players would be an interesting idea if Collins was acquired.

Less need for Kemba's shot creation. More need for glue guys.

I'd rather have Collins than Kemba long term.

Who is trading for Kemba? Meaning -- which team? It's very difficult to find a sensible one where: a) he's a "fit", and b) you wouldn't have to send out picks with him, or take back a contract just as cumbersome in the process. 

[Who]

Trading Kemba for a couple of high end role players would be an interesting idea if Collins was acquired.

Less need for Kemba's shot creation. More need for glue guys.

I'd rather have Collins than Kemba long term.

Who is trading for Kemba? Meaning -- which team? It's very difficult to find a sensible one where: a) he's a "fit", and b) you wouldn't have to send out picks with him, or take back a contract just as cumbersome in the process.

I have a strong disagreement with anyone who views Kemba as a bad contract. That is grossly premature to put him in that category. He was a starter in the All-Star Game last year. He has only just returned from a long term injury. People are writing him off far too early.

Need to be patient and let it play out. Then re-evaluate his trade stock. That may happen in time for this year's trade deadline or it may not. It may not be until the summer that we can re-balance this team (with a Kemba trade) post-trade for John Collins.

[todd_days_41]

Trading Kemba for a couple of high end role players would be an interesting idea if Collins was acquired.

Less need for Kemba's shot creation. More need for glue guys.

I'd rather have Collins than Kemba long term.

Who is trading for Kemba? Meaning -- which team? It's very difficult to find a sensible one where: a) he's a "fit", and b) you wouldn't have to send out picks with him, or take back a contract just as cumbersome in the process.

I have a strong disagreement with anyone who views Kemba as a bad contract. That is grossly premature to put him in that category. He was a starter in the All-Star Game last year. He has only just returned from a long term injury. People are writing him off far too early.

Need to be patient and let it play out. Then re-evaluate his trade stock. That may happen in time for this year's trade deadline or it may not. It may not be until the summer that we can re-balance this team (with a Kemba trade) post-trade for John Collins.

I'm not writing Kemba off.

He's a small, aging scoring PG with knee problems with a $37.6MM player option in 2022/23. He's NOT going to be an easy guy to find a trade for, no matter how well he plays rest of this year.

Doesn't mean he can't turn things around and be of significant value to the Cs. But if your plan to remove salary should the Cs acquire Collins is to trade Kemba, my challenge would be: to who? If you have no buyers, you're screwd. If you have one buyer, you're getting a lousy deal. If you have two: maybe you can get a couple interesting role guys in trade, as suggested.

[johnnygreen]

The Houston Rockets are loaded with multiple first round picks in each of the next 5 years. Could the Celtics offer the TPE and multiple second round picks in exchange for Eric Gordon and one of those 2021 or 2022 first round picks?

Then the Celtics trade one of Langford/Nesmith/Timelord, along with the Celtics 2021 first round pick and the first round pick from the Eric Gordon trade.

[Roy H.]

The Houston Rockets are loaded with multiple first round picks in each of the next 5 years. Could the Celtics offer the TPE and multiple second round picks in exchange for Eric Gordon and one of those 2021 or 2022 first round picks?

Then the Celtics trade one of Langford/Nesmith/Timelord, along with the Celtics 2021 first round pick and the first round pick from the Eric Gordon trade.

Are there rumors that Houston wants to dump Gordon that bad? From what I have heard, they are not looking to send out first rounders

[jambr380]

Trading Kemba for a couple of high end role players would be an interesting idea if Collins was acquired.

Less need for Kemba's shot creation. More need for glue guys.

I'd rather have Collins than Kemba long term.

Who is trading for Kemba? Meaning -- which team? It's very difficult to find a sensible one where: a) he's a "fit", and b) you wouldn't have to send out picks with him, or take back a contract just as cumbersome in the process.

I have a strong disagreement with anyone who views Kemba as a bad contract. That is grossly premature to put him in that category. He was a starter in the All-Star Game last year. He has only just returned from a long term injury. People are writing him off far too early.

Need to be patient and let it play out. Then re-evaluate his trade stock. That may happen in time for this year's trade deadline or it may not. It may not be until the summer that we can re-balance this team (with a Kemba trade) post-trade for John Collins.

I'm not writing Kemba off.

He's a small, aging scoring PG with knee problems with a $37.6MM player option in 2022/23. He's NOT going to be an easy guy to find a trade for, no matter how well he plays rest of this year.

Doesn't mean he can't turn things around and be of significant value to the Cs. But if your plan to remove salary should the Cs acquire Collins is to trade Kemba, my challenge would be: to who? If you have no buyers, you're screwd. If you have one buyer, you're getting a lousy deal. If you have two: maybe you can get a couple interesting role guys in trade, as suggested.

There will be options this summer. If he can avoid injury, he will likely have increased his value from the basement it is currently in. As many have noted, he physically looks really good out there, he is just a little off on his timing and shot. Teams will have quite a bit of cap space this summer; if we are looking to simply dump Kemba, then there are always lower level/less desirable teams out there making to look a splash with a big name. He will only have two years left on his deal and at least he isn't going to be making $50M in his last year like Westbrook or Wall.

If Kemba is looking like at least 'Bubble Kemba' again by the end of the season, I'm not sure we'll want to trade him right away. We may want to hold off until Smart's contract ends and deal him as an expiring (or hold on to him should Smart sign elsewhere for big $$$).

[todd_days_41]

Trading Kemba for a couple of high end role players would be an interesting idea if Collins was acquired.

Less need for Kemba's shot creation. More need for glue guys.

I'd rather have Collins than Kemba long term.

Who is trading for Kemba? Meaning -- which team? It's very difficult to find a sensible one where: a) he's a "fit", and b) you wouldn't have to send out picks with him, or take back a contract just as cumbersome in the process.

I have a strong disagreement with anyone who views Kemba as a bad contract. That is grossly premature to put him in that category. He was a starter in the All-Star Game last year. He has only just returned from a long term injury. People are writing him off far too early.

Need to be patient and let it play out. Then re-evaluate his trade stock. That may happen in time for this year's trade deadline or it may not. It may not be until the summer that we can re-balance this team (with a Kemba trade) post-trade for John Collins.

I'm not writing Kemba off.

He's a small, aging scoring PG with knee problems with a $37.6MM player option in 2022/23. He's NOT going to be an easy guy to find a trade for, no matter how well he plays rest of this year.

Doesn't mean he can't turn things around and be of significant value to the Cs. But if your plan to remove salary should the Cs acquire Collins is to trade Kemba, my challenge would be: to who? If you have no buyers, you're screwd. If you have one buyer, you're getting a lousy deal. If you have two: maybe you can get a couple interesting role guys in trade, as suggested.

There will be options this summer. If he can avoid injury, he will likely have increased his value from the basement it is currently in. As many have noted, he physically looks really good out there, he is just a little off on his timing and shot. Teams will have quite a bit of cap space this summer; if we are looking to simply dump Kemba, then there are always lower level/less desirable teams out there making to look a splash with a big name. He will only have two years left on his deal and at least he isn't going to be making $50M in his last year like Westbrook or Wall.

If Kemba is looking like at least 'Bubble Kemba' again by the end of the season, I'm not sure we'll want to trade him right away. We may want to hold off until Smart's contract ends and deal him as an expiring (or hold on to him should Smart sign elsewhere for big $$$).

I'm cool with the glass half full. But seriously -- who is trading for him if he does improve value? Who is making Kemba their starting PG at his price, age, etc? I've put some good thought into virtually every team.... it's not a pretty list of options.

The answer to this issue may have to be: trading Kemba is not how you reduce pay roll. Which is problematic, but may become a foregone conclusion.

[johnnygreen]

The Houston Rockets are loaded with multiple first round picks in each of the next 5 years. Could the Celtics offer the TPE and multiple second round picks in exchange for Eric Gordon and one of those 2021 or 2022 first round picks?

Then the Celtics trade one of Langford/Nesmith/Timelord, along with the Celtics 2021 first round pick and the first round pick from the Eric Gordon trade.

Are there rumors that Houston wants to dump Gordon that bad? From what I have heard, they are not looking to send out first rounders

I'm just thinking that Houston has 3 first round picks in each of the next 3 drafts. Those are 3 guaranteed contracts each year for unproven players. And I don't see Gordon fitting into their plans. Why not get rid of a 4 year contract that pays between $17-21M per season.

I'm just trying to think outside the box on how to improve the Celtics.