The Case Against a James Harden Trade

[PhoSita]

The case for me is this:

I like to enjoy watching the Celtics.

[moiso]

Harden put up 44 and 17 last night including a 3 with 15 seconds left in OT to put his team up 1.  That is with everything going on and him coming off quarantine.  I get it was his own fault that put him in quarantine, but that is the type of effort you will get from Harden every night and every game as he rarely takes game off and hasn't been injured in his career.   He is streaky and can go cold, but he gives it all every single game.

We know Harden can get 44 and 17.  That doesn’t prove that he can fit in on the Celtics.  Can he feel as good about himself when he gets 24 and 8?  Throughout his career the answer has been “no”.  We don’t need a guy that wants to go for 44 and 17.  That won’t help the team long term;  that’s a one man show.

[Moranis]

Harden, IMHO, is a cancer and I don't want him on the team.

If he can ball who cares how he acts.  People need to grow up.  You can’t always pick the people you work with.  But you suck up your feelings and make it work for the betterment of the team.  They’re freakin professional athletes for cripes sake.  Too much talk about players being lockeroom problems, etc etc and because grown adults can’t deal with it we sacrifice success so we can all have a bunch of feels.  Enough!  Feelings ain’t bringing us a chip.

Did you learn nothing from the Kyrie Irving disaster ?

Chemistry matters - high school, college or pros (adults). Any organization has to have a level of unity, playing together and everyone pulling in the same direction to be successful. If Harden's attitude and disruptive behavior isn't bad enough, then trying to mix his playing style (dribble, dribble, dribble & shoot) with our current more balanced approach is enough reason to never consider adding this guy to the Celtics.  Didn't you notice how much better Tatum and Brown played when Kyrie was injured ('18 playoffs) and after he was gone last season ?

The bolded sounds eerily familiar, are you sure that it doesn't exist on the squad right now?

That is because the team isn't good enough and without Kemba only has 2 solid offensive players on the entire roster.  I mean the starting lineup last night had 3 players that are just bad offensive players that can't create, aren't floor spacers, aren't great passers (Smart is ok there), etc. The team just isn't good enough to do anything more than 1 round in the playoffs (and depending on match-up might not even do that). With Harden it might be good enough to make the Finals.  Harden is a difference maker. 

And Harden's issues have never been on the court.  He has made it work on the court with all different types of players.  Some just as ball dominant as he is.  Irving has had difficulty making it work on the court, takes plays off, and misses 25% of his games.  That isn't Harden.  He shows up every single game and plays hard every single game.  Harden has most certainly had some issues off the court, but I do think a lot of that is Houston coddling him.  I don't think that would be as much an issue here.  And the biggest difference between Harden and Irving, is quite simply that Harden is a significantly better player than Irving.  Like it isn't close.  Harden has put together the greatest 3 offensive seasons since the early 60's (I'd take him over Jordan's 80's peak 3 years even).  What he has been doing is basically unmatched in NBA history.

Teague sounds like a solid offensive player to me (and so does FastPP but he's still a rookie so he's TBD). You're underrating this squad, Brown can now be the focal point of some lineups for us like Tatum and combined with players who can play well off the ball like Smart/TT/Theis we can put out a solid offence out there with the two of them alternating offensive duties alongside Teague. Our problem is that we go away from that completely whenever we go into the final minutes of a close game and lean on a guy who can't handle that heliocentric load, not because a Brown/Tatum duopoly with shooters/finishers/extra passers/offensive rebounders around them doesn't work (last night's game was a good example of our offence being fine if we don't double down on Tatumball, a Smart/Brown/TT/Grant/Teague or FastPP lineup got us back into the game against a Pacers team that was looking to close us out with Brown being a focal point who doesn't try to be an offensive quarterback).

I absolutely agree with you that we should trade for Harden - he's a difference maker who can quarterback elite offences by himself. I would trade Tatum instead of Brown though, Brown's contract is an absolute bargain for a guy who's now close to supermax players below the age of 25 and he fits better next to on-ball talent with his off-ball movement and quick decision making. He's also more versatile as a man defender, so he can cover weak defensive players like Harden better than Tatum (not saying that Tatum is a worse defender than Brown, but most of his defensive value comes from help defence and guarding big wings rather than being an excellent man defender in multiple positions).

Can't trade Tatum unless you are also unloading Walker.  The difference in dollars this year, plus the poison pill component basically makes it impossible.  It is either Walker or Brown just for salary and Walker isn't good enough to be the main component going out so it basically has to be Brown.

Teague is old.  He is no where near the player he was in his prime and even the player he was in his prime was an average offensive player because he was never all that efficient and was a good but not great passer.  Pritchard is a rookie that was taken at the end of the 1st round.  The fact that you even have to include him shows how bad the offense on the team is.  This team quite simply isn't a great team.  It has virtually no chance of even making the Finals let alone winning them. 

[Moranis]

Harden put up 44 and 17 last night including a 3 with 15 seconds left in OT to put his team up 1.  That is with everything going on and him coming off quarantine.  I get it was his own fault that put him in quarantine, but that is the type of effort you will get from Harden every night and every game as he rarely takes game off and hasn't been injured in his career.   He is streaky and can go cold, but he gives it all every single game.

We know Harden can get 44 and 17.  That doesn’t prove that he can fit in on the Celtics.  Can he feel as good about himself when he gets 24 and 8?  Throughout his career the answer has been “no”.  We don’t need a guy that wants to go for 44 and 17.  That won’t help the team long term;  that’s a one man show.

Of course he could feel good about 24 and 8 if it meant winning.  Players care about winning, especially guys like Harden, that have never won.  It changes your entire historical legacy.  That said, if he was here with Tatum and Walker, he would go for 30 and 10 every night anyway.  He would be BY FAR the best player on the team in that scenario (at least offensively).  It isn't close. 

[gouki88]

The case for me is this:

I like to enjoy watching the Celtics.

How much have you enjoyed the last 20 odd games?

[RJ87]

The case for me is this:

I like to enjoy watching the Celtics.

Same. I'd rather take my eyes with hot pokers than to watch James Harden on this team.

[PhoSita]

The case for me is this:

I like to enjoy watching the Celtics.

How much have you enjoyed the last 20 odd games?

Wouldn't that mostly include the playoffs?

Sweeping the Sixers and beating the Raps in 7 was immensely satisfying.

The ECF was pretty frustrating, but Miami was just the better, more mature team.


The first few games of this seasons have been a mixed bag.  Beating Milwaukee was nice albeit on a bit of a silly last second shot. 

Getting smoked by the Nets was very frustrating and also showed a stark contrast between a truly deep / talented team and where the Celts are at right now. 

The 1 point loss against the Pacers was frustrating, but I don't see any need to panic based on that.  The Pacers are a good team (45-50 win caliber in a regular season) and always play the Celts tough.

[gouki88]

The case for me is this:

I like to enjoy watching the Celtics.

How much have you enjoyed the last 20 odd games?

Wouldn't that mostly include the playoffs?

Sweeping the Sixers and beating the Raps in 7 was immensely satisfying.

The ECF was pretty frustrating, but Miami was just the better, more mature team.


The first few games of this seasons have been a mixed bag.  Beating Milwaukee was nice albeit on a bit of a silly last second shot. 

Getting smoked by the Nets was very frustrating and also showed a stark contrast between a truly deep / talented team and where the Celts are at right now. 

The 1 point loss against the Pacers was frustrating, but I don't see any need to panic based on that.  The Pacers are a good team (45-50 win caliber in a regular season) and always play the Celts tough.

I don't know about you, but despite the result, the actual on-court product we put out against Toronto was dismal. At least in the 2nd half of the series. The Heat series was a trainwreck.

I just don't see where this idea of us playing some sort of beautiful gamestyle has come from. Our offence is stagnant, our defence passionless, and we're losing more than we're winning.

[PhoSita]

I don't know about you, but despite the result, the actual on-court product we put out against Toronto was dismal. At least in the 2nd half of the series. The Heat series was a trainwreck.

It was a closely fought 7 game series against a deep, well-coached opponent with championship pedigree. 

A series that came down to clutch plays in the last few minutes of Game 7.



I mean, what more could you ask for?  Sure it wasn't always pretty.  It made me very stressed and anxious many times during that series.  I was sure they were going to lose Game 7 until they didn't. 

I'm still going to relish that Marcus Smart block forever.


They went 10-7 in the playoffs BTW.




As for whether it was pretty, it often wasn't.  But playoff basketball is often ugly.  Teams that play pretty don't often fare well in the playoffs except when they're overwhelmingly talented. 

The Celts in the playoffs had a DRTG that would have put them in the top 5 in the regular season (they were also top 5 in the regular season).

On offense in the playoffs, the Celts had an ORTG around 108 which would have put them around league average for the regular season.  That's not great, but then again they were playing exclusively against elite defensive opponents.


We've got ample evidence that this team is really good on both ends when they have Kemba, Smart, Tatum, and Brown available.


Main issues for this season are Kemba's knee and late game execution.


To start this season, both of those issues have been concerning!  Kemba's knee is keeping him out of the first month or more, and the team is struggling on offense without him.

Meanwhile, the late game execution has already shown itself to be pretty hit or miss.  But it's super early yet.

[moiso]

Harden put up 44 and 17 last night including a 3 with 15 seconds left in OT to put his team up 1.  That is with everything going on and him coming off quarantine.  I get it was his own fault that put him in quarantine, but that is the type of effort you will get from Harden every night and every game as he rarely takes game off and hasn't been injured in his career.   He is streaky and can go cold, but he gives it all every single game.

We know Harden can get 44 and 17.  That doesn’t prove that he can fit in on the Celtics.  Can he feel as good about himself when he gets 24 and 8?  Throughout his career the answer has been “no”.  We don’t need a guy that wants to go for 44 and 17.  That won’t help the team long term;  that’s a one man show.

Of course he could feel good about 24 and 8 if it meant winning.  Players care about winning, especially guys like Harden, that have never won.  It changes your entire historical legacy.  That said, if he was here with Tatum and Walker, he would go for 30 and 10 every night anyway.  He would be BY FAR the best player on the team in that scenario (at least offensively).  It isn't close.

Doc Rivers made an awesome statement earlier this week.  "Players all say they care about winning.  That's bull.  Most players care about winning as long as they get to do exactly what they want to do." 

[Ogaju]

How many still think Boston is too good for James Harden?

[Goldstar88]

How many still think Boston is too good for James Harden?

In Harden, out Brown and the C’s are still not good enough to win a championship. Pass

[Moranis]

I would have traded Brown then and still would trade Brown for Harden.  Harden is a difference maker.  He is a MVP in his prime.  He is everything this team is missing. 

[Ogaju]

I would have traded Brown then and still would trade Brown for Harden.  Harden is a difference maker.  He is a MVP in his prime.  He is everything this team is missing.

He is a big time player. Harden + Tatum + Smart = Championship Foundation.

[GreenCoffeeBean]

Brown isn’t the problem with this team currently. It’s Kemba and Tatum.