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The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« on: December 27, 2020, 12:22:01 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Warning: This is a long post. TLDR at the end.

Or, more accurately, the case against trading Jaylen Brown for James Harden. Lets say the Celtics were to complete a trade for Harden involving Brown, the fundamental tension in that deal is you are trading future value for current value. Brown is 24, Harden is 31, the bet you are making is that by acquiring Harden you are getting good enough in the immediate future to win it all thus negating the likely surplus value in Brown will have over Harden in future years given his age, contract, ect. So any discussion of the deal has to start with Harden's contract situation and age.

Harden is under contract for 2 years with a player option. If he plays at his elite level the next two years at ages 31 and 32 then he's opting out an getting a new contract at age 33 where he'll  be eligible for a 5 year max starting at 35% of the cap. A massive deal for his year 33-37. That is almost guaranteed to instantly be one of the worst contracts in the NBA upon signing, even if he's still very good the he's unlikely to be 45+ million dollars good even in the first year of that contract. And if he opts into the third year, it's because something went wrong in the first two (injury, decline, ect) which is not ideal. So really with Harden you're looking at a two year window after which age related decline, burdensome contract, or just plain leaving via free agency decrease his expected value significantly. Whereas after those two or three years Brown will be hitting his prime, likely still be paid less, and have several years where he will likely outperform Harden on the back end.

Now if you can win it all the next two years that might be worth it, but can you? A major factor lost in all this is it will be extremely difficult to build the team year one into a contender. You'll be acquiring Harden during the season where there will be NO practice time due to the game load. Chances to build chemistry off the court will be limited. But also the Celtics are hard-capped. A straight trade of Brown for Harden pushed you VERY close to that hard cap and into the tax. Of course it wont be a straight trade, but every asset you give up in addition to Brown hurts your ability to construct your team. If Marcus Smart is in it you lose a second starter, if he's not then one of Theis/Thompson almost has to go to make the money work (because Harden makes 18 million more than Brown), and you're likely stacking young guys + draft picks. Every player you include opens up room under the hard cap, but not that much because most those guys are making no more than 3 million and you have to replace those guys on the roster in the middle of the season which is REALLY hard to do. You may have the TPE, but again because of the hard-cap you wont have a lot of room to use it and you'll be out assets from the Harden trade making it hard to use effectively anyway. All of this is a long winded way of saying if you think the Celtics bench is bad now its gonna absolutely blow after a Harden trade.

So okay, your bench sucks. Then other problem is as good as Harden is you still arent going to have the best player is a Durant/Nets series (if he looks like he has so far this year), or a Giannis/Bucks series, or a Lakers/Lebron series, or a Clippers/Kawhi series. An you likely have to get through 3 of those 4 to win it all. "Okay, but Jaylen doesn't help you with that either!" you may say. Sure, but a Jaylen for Harden trade is shifting value to now, and the bottom line is given your bench and Hardens inherent shortcomings (ie he is bad defensively) you arent likely good enough year one. Maybe you are if Kemba is totally healthy, but thats a BIG bet to make. And even if he is there are inherent fit issues with having three ball dominant guys on offense and a defensive backcourt of Kemba/Harden. You're probably best off trying to flip Kemba for pieces, but again that SO hard mid season.

 So really your bet is that with a full offseason Ainge can build a championship bench and NEXT year is your year. Of course the team is now VERY expensive with Harden, Tatum (hopefully at the 30 percent max) and Kemba, making it hard to fill out  roster (You wont have the full MLE for example). You don't know if Kemba will be healthy. Tatum will be 24 by NEXT years playoffs, so he should be hitting his stride by then but you'll also have a complete CIRCUS all year with Harden facing free agency. The last time the Celtics faced that it... didn't end well. One injury to Tatum/Harden and its complete disaster. Game over.
So what if you don't win the next two years and Harden does leave? We've certainly seen guys leave here a lot the last few years. And its not like Harden would be sticking around for Boston's superior gentlemen's clubs. Well now you have pretty much just Tatum, you've stripped at minimum a fair amount of assets off the team, and thing could get very dark. Like Tatum asking for a trade dark because the roster is now barren.

If all that is too much for you think about it this way, the best chance of winning a title is to have as many elite players peaking at their primes at the same time. The reason Tatum/Harden dont make all that much sense is an eight year difference in age all but assures that wont happen. By the time Tatum is in his prime Harden is well into decline. Tatum may not be good enough the next two years to push Harden over the top while Harden is still in his.

Now for a Jaylen Brown note. Its been two games, but WHAT IF Brown is closer to the guy he's been in those two games then the guy he was last year? A 6'6 freak athlete who can get his own shot at all three levels, defend 1-5, AND play-make for others. He's been their best player. He's running pick and rolls smoothly, making skip passes to the corner, and juking guys out of their shoes. If he plays at that level he's not only an all star, he'll make some All NBA Teams in his career. If Brown's upside in now High Level On Ball Creator and not just Elite Secondary Star then honestly, I think it might be crazy to trade him for a 31 year old. We dont know he's that, it's only been two games, but man thats a tantalizing possibility. It closes the gap between Brown and Harden's value in the near term, while further widening it in the longer term making the deal harder to justify. 

Now all of this is just basketball reasoning, i think you also have to seriously consider the "intangibles." Harden by all accounts seems like a guy players dont really like playing with all that much. He hasn't exactly showed himself in a good light the last few weeks. Stevens didn't exactly demonstrate an ability to manage guys like that with Kyrie. What if Tatum just hates him, or doesn't like the reduced usage that comes with playing with him? Do we think Harden is truly committed to winning? If we did resign him do we think he will age well given his lifestyle of partying? Remember, we are trading an ELITE character guy for Harden, a guy who gets better every year. And just as importantly a guy we actually like as a human being. Harden can be...hard to root for.

TLDR version: I dont think Harden makes you good enough in the short term to sacrifice the longer term value of Jaylen Brown given factors such as his age, team construction, competition ect. I think there's some chance Jaylen is about to explode this year and become a true On Ball Playmaker which would close the short term value gap. And I think the intangibles make Harden a less than ideal player to make a big bet on. I'd pass.


Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2020, 01:05:47 PM »

Offline cman88

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the case is pretty simple. We already went through this with Kyrie Irving, and Harden seems to be even more of a team cancer.

Houston bent over backwards for the guy and he still wants out. Chris Paul and Westbrook LEFT houston BECAUSE harden didnt show up to practices or film sessions and didnt take it seriously. That doesnt bode well.

You arent gonna win with that type of guy. And not sure how other players are going to accept harden flying off to strip clubs and not showing up until right before gametime. But if you dont let him do that he will demand a trade.

I'm not ready to give up a young Jaylen Brown for a disgruntled lockerroom cancer. no matter how talented he may be


Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2020, 01:28:29 PM »

Offline cltc5

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Brown brings us nothing Tatum won’t eventually except maybe better defense.  That said we need to take a strong investment in Nesmith and maybe Langford as replaceable wings for jalen.  Let brown go and when/ if harden walks, you have Tatum nesmith/Langford.  In two years we can rebuild with still Tatum at the forefront and at least some younger wings.  Not sure why brad doesn’t see what nesmith brings..he’s very athletic and already has a purer shot then Brown did outta college.  I’d say brown is a better all around player than Tatum right now but you can’t replace tatums shooting efficiency when he’s on.  Having a pg that runs the offense well and can knock down shots without hesitation ala Kevin Durant would be much appreciated moving forward.  Right now we have a bunch of young players and a young coach trying to figure it out.  Take your shot now if you can.  Image will get you a pat on the back, I’m ready for a title and so is harden.

Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2020, 02:06:45 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Harden, IMHO, is a cancer and I don't want him on the team.

That said, the only way I see that makes sense to bring him in, is as a replacement of Kemba Walker, while retaining Brown and Tatum and, maybe even, Smart.

Something along the line of Kemba, Grant, Green and 3 picks for Harden where Kemba can be diverted to another team and players from that team go to Houston. I picked Grant and Javonte because Grant is young and has some promise and Green can be cut right away by Houston saving them some salary. But honestly, pick and Celtic bench player or combo of players that make the salaries work.

Harden
Brown
Tatum
Thompson
Theis

With a bench of Teague, Smart, Timelord, Semi, Pritchard and Nesmith maks the team a real contender IF, yes, big if, Harden can rein in his caustic ways, become a team player and elevate his other two stars and the team to title winning heights.

And if he doesn't and leaves in two years, you still have the Tatum, Brown, Smart core to go forward with.

But, I still don't want Danny to bring him onto the team. Sadly, if Ainge does trade for him, I'll probably cheer him on because, well, he will be in a Celtics uni. Still gotta cheer on the players with Celtucs on the front of their jersey, even if I don't like the name on the back of it.


Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2020, 02:10:50 PM »

Offline wiley

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Harden, IMHO, is a cancer and I don't want him on the team.

That said, the only way I see that makes sense to bring him in, is as a replacement of Kemba Walker, while retaining Brown and Tatum and, maybe even, Smart.

Something along the line of Kemba, Grant, Green and 3 picks for Harden where Kemba can be diverted to another team and players from that team go to Houston. I picked Grant and Javonte because Grant is young and has some promise and Green can be cut right away by Houston saving them some salary. But honestly, pick and Celtic bench player or combo of players that make the salaries work.

Harden
Brown
Tatum
Thompson
Theis

With a bench of Teague, Smart, Timelord, Semi, Pritchard and Nesmith maks the team a real contender IF, yes, big if, Harden can rein in his caustic ways, become a team player and elevate his other two stars and the team to title winning heights.

And if he doesn't and leaves in two years, you still have the Tatum, Brown, Smart core to go forward with.

But, I still don't want Danny to bring him onto the team. Sadly, if Ainge does trade for him, I'll probably cheer him on because, well, he will be in a Celtics uni. Still gotta cheer on the players with Celtucs on the front of their jersey, even if I don't like the name on the back of it.

Agree with every aspect of this post, including the lineup.  If you bring him in, he's the PG....

Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2020, 02:40:21 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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If you can get Harden for Kemba Walker, great, I do that.  Even Kemba + Langford + Nesmith + Picks (for example).  But I doubt that you can, unfortunately.

This is going to play out for a while.  I suspect that Houston has offers from teams that are all low-ball at this point.  So they wait, and why wouldn't they.  It is a lost season for them in any case and depending on how things go, the whole season may get cancelled at some point for everyone.

The Celtics need to just sit back and focus on their team; see what they got, see what Kemba looks like when he comes back.  I am not opposed to trading for Harden for the right deal, I just doubt he ends up on the Celtics.  Houston may not trade him at all; no one will offer what they think they deserve for him.

Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2020, 02:42:50 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Harden put up 44 and 17 last night including a 3 with 15 seconds left in OT to put his team up 1.  That is with everything going on and him coming off quarantine.  I get it was his own fault that put him in quarantine, but that is the type of effort you will get from Harden every night and every game as he rarely takes game off and hasn't been injured in his career.   He is streaky and can go cold, but he gives it all every single game. 
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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2020, 03:52:00 PM »

Offline Scottiej23

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Harden, IMHO, is a cancer and I don't want him on the team.

That said, the only way I see that makes sense to bring him in, is as a replacement of Kemba Walker, while retaining Brown and Tatum and, maybe even, Smart.

Something along the line of Kemba, Grant, Green and 3 picks for Harden where Kemba can be diverted to another team and players from that team go to Houston. I picked Grant and Javonte because Grant is young and has some promise and Green can be cut right away by Houston saving them some salary. But honestly, pick and Celtic bench player or combo of players that make the salaries work.

Harden
Brown
Tatum
Thompson
Theis

With a bench of Teague, Smart, Timelord, Semi, Pritchard and Nesmith maks the team a real contender IF, yes, big if, Harden can rein in his caustic ways, become a team player and elevate his other two stars and the team to title winning heights.

And if he doesn't and leaves in two years, you still have the Tatum, Brown, Smart core to go forward with.

But, I still don't want Danny to bring him onto the team. Sadly, if Ainge does trade for him, I'll probably cheer him on because, well, he will be in a Celtics uni. Still gotta cheer on the players with Celtucs on the front of their jersey, even if I don't like the name on the back of it.

Yes to this. I have been thinking of something along the same line. I am gravely concerned about Kemba's knee. At least Harden would be easy(ish) to shift if he doesn't pan out as opposed to potentially hobbled Kemba.

Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2020, 04:07:19 PM »

Offline Darth_Yoda

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The deal for Harden would not costJaylen.

Not sure why some posters feel that is the price. Right now Hardens value is pure garbage.

The cost for Harden is Kemba (allstar) and youth.
Kemba obviously goes to Clippers, Dallas, Bulls, Knicks, spurs, detroit as potential suitirs for Kemba.

Smart
Harden
Brown
Tatum
Thinpson

That a championship team
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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2020, 04:38:45 PM »

Offline cltc5

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Harden, IMHO, is a cancer and I don't want him on the team.

That said, the only way I see that makes sense to bring him in, is as a replacement of Kemba Walker, while retaining Brown and Tatum and, maybe even, Smart.

Something along the line of Kemba, Grant, Green and 3 picks for Harden where Kemba can be diverted to another team and players from that team go to Houston. I picked Grant and Javonte because Grant is young and has some promise and Green can be cut right away by Houston saving them some salary. But honestly, pick and Celtic bench player or combo of players that make the salaries work.

Harden
Brown
Tatum
Thompson
Theis

With a bench of Teague, Smart, Timelord, Semi, Pritchard and Nesmith maks the team a real contender IF, yes, big if, Harden can rein in his caustic ways, become a team player and elevate his other two stars and the team to title winning heights.

And if he doesn't and leaves in two years, you still have the Tatum, Brown, Smart core to go forward with.

But, I still don't want Danny to bring him onto the team. Sadly, if Ainge does trade for him, I'll probably cheer him on because, well, he will be in a Celtics uni. Still gotta cheer on the players with Celtucs on the front of their jersey, even if I don't like the name on the back of it.

If he can ball who cares how he acts.  People need to grow up.  You can’t always pick the people you work with.  But you suck up your feelings and make it work for the betterment of the team.  They’re freakin professional athletes for cripes sake.  Too much talk about players being lockeroom problems, etc etc and because grown adults can’t deal with it we sacrifice success so we can all have a bunch of feels.  Enough!  Feelings ain’t bringing us a chip.

Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2020, 04:41:08 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Harden, IMHO, is a cancer and I don't want him on the team.

That said, the only way I see that makes sense to bring him in, is as a replacement of Kemba Walker, while retaining Brown and Tatum and, maybe even, Smart.

Something along the line of Kemba, Grant, Green and 3 picks for Harden where Kemba can be diverted to another team and players from that team go to Houston. I picked Grant and Javonte because Grant is young and has some promise and Green can be cut right away by Houston saving them some salary. But honestly, pick and Celtic bench player or combo of players that make the salaries work.

Harden
Brown
Tatum
Thompson
Theis

With a bench of Teague, Smart, Timelord, Semi, Pritchard and Nesmith maks the team a real contender IF, yes, big if, Harden can rein in his caustic ways, become a team player and elevate his other two stars and the team to title winning heights.

And if he doesn't and leaves in two years, you still have the Tatum, Brown, Smart core to go forward with.

But, I still don't want Danny to bring him onto the team. Sadly, if Ainge does trade for him, I'll probably cheer him on because, well, he will be in a Celtics uni. Still gotta cheer on the players with Celtucs on the front of their jersey, even if I don't like the name on the back of it.

Honestly I really dislike watching Harden play, and I dont much care for him as a person. That said I would take him on the team if you could do it without Jaylen. My argument is if you trade Jaylen for him you arent good enough to now to justify the sacrifice of your future timeline. But if you could find a way to flip Kemba to a third team, picks + young guys to Houston then I would do that even if you have to include Smart. You'd get two years with Harden, and if he leaves after that you could in theory completely clear your cap books besides Jaylen+Tatum and chase a max guy or several good players.

My line is Jaylen, he's not in the deal.

Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2020, 04:42:02 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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The deal for Harden would not costJaylen.

Not sure why some posters feel that is the price. Right now Hardens value is pure garbage.

The cost for Harden is Kemba (allstar) and youth.
Kemba obviously goes to Clippers, Dallas, Bulls, Knicks, spurs, detroit as potential suitirs for Kemba.

Smart
Harden
Brown
Tatum
Thinpson

That a championship team

So what exactly is Houston getting back here??
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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2020, 05:20:24 PM »

Offline gouki88

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the case is pretty simple. We already went through this with Kyrie Irving, and Harden seems to be even more of a team cancer.

Houston bent over backwards for the guy and he still wants out. Chris Paul and Westbrook LEFT houston BECAUSE harden didnt show up to practices or film sessions and didnt take it seriously. That doesnt bode well.

You arent gonna win with that type of guy. And not sure how other players are going to accept harden flying off to strip clubs and not showing up until right before gametime. But if you dont let him do that he will demand a trade.

I'm not ready to give up a young Jaylen Brown for a disgruntled lockerroom cancer. no matter how talented he may be
Guess we can just invent whatever narrative we want now? That didn't happen.

Secondly, the greatest team of the modern era (second 3peat Bulls) had someone exactly like that, except he was even more erratic and unreliable, and less talented. Worked for them. Kawhi & AD were causing huge issues in their respective locker-rooms, did that not work out for Toronto / LA?
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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2020, 06:34:16 PM »

Offline liam

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the case is pretty simple. We already went through this with Kyrie Irving, and Harden seems to be even more of a team cancer.

Houston bent over backwards for the guy and he still wants out. Chris Paul and Westbrook LEFT houston BECAUSE harden didnt show up to practices or film sessions and didnt take it seriously. That doesnt bode well.

You arent gonna win with that type of guy. And not sure how other players are going to accept harden flying off to strip clubs and not showing up until right before gametime. But if you dont let him do that he will demand a trade.

I'm not ready to give up a young Jaylen Brown for a disgruntled lockerroom cancer. no matter how talented he may be
Guess we can just invent whatever narrative we want now? That didn't happen.

Secondly, the greatest team of the modern era (second 3peat Bulls) had someone exactly like that, except he was even more erratic and unreliable, and less talented. Worked for them. Kawhi & AD were causing huge issues in their respective locker-rooms, did that not work out for Toronto / LA?

I’m not sure of the exact narrative but I know Westbrook wanted out after a year and Chris Paul wouldn’t be traded or brought in in the first place with out Harden’s Ok. So something is going on there.

Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2020, 06:57:42 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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TP to keevsnick for breaking it ALL down.

It isn't an Auerbach move. He and Ainge have each made many moves in their careers as execs and I just don't see it.

I understand the move might "have to be made"...when the heck is Ainge going to get another shot like this?

The issue with Harden is Jaylen Brown. You have to have defense in the playoffs. In June it isn't about hanging 40 points on another team often enough for it to matter.

Brown is a very high level player at both ends. If you're going to trade him? How are you going to replace his defense?

Tonight against the Pacers, if Brown switches onto any of the 5 Pacer's starters? The matchup is ok. Brown is long and he is smart.

I see Ainge trading Brown to Houston and Houston trading Harden to "team three" for a player that Ainge wants. I don't see a $40M Harden-Brown swap.

Ainge needs a "third star player" next year or the year after to put with the J's. Should be doable as the J's are legit and will attract someone.