Author Topic: The Case Against a James Harden Trade  (Read 10436 times)

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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2020, 07:15:04 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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the case is pretty simple. We already went through this with Kyrie Irving, and Harden seems to be even more of a team cancer.

Houston bent over backwards for the guy and he still wants out. Chris Paul and Westbrook LEFT houston BECAUSE harden didnt show up to practices or film sessions and didnt take it seriously. That doesnt bode well.

You arent gonna win with that type of guy. And not sure how other players are going to accept harden flying off to strip clubs and not showing up until right before gametime. But if you dont let him do that he will demand a trade.

I'm not ready to give up a young Jaylen Brown for a disgruntled lockerroom cancer. no matter how talented he may be
Guess we can just invent whatever narrative we want now? That didn't happen.

Secondly, the greatest team of the modern era (second 3peat Bulls) had someone exactly like that, except he was even more erratic and unreliable, and less talented. Worked for them. Kawhi & AD were causing huge issues in their respective locker-rooms, did that not work out for Toronto / LA?

Rodman on the Bulls was not the star player, not even close. He was an important role player and, weird as he was, he did play hard and cared about winning more than his own stats.

Note: Greatest team of the modern era is the 1986 Boston Celtics who would have mopped the floor with any of the Bulls' teams.
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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2020, 07:15:19 PM »

Offline RJ87

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the case is pretty simple. We already went through this with Kyrie Irving, and Harden seems to be even more of a team cancer.

Houston bent over backwards for the guy and he still wants out. Chris Paul and Westbrook LEFT houston BECAUSE harden didnt show up to practices or film sessions and didnt take it seriously. That doesnt bode well.

You arent gonna win with that type of guy. And not sure how other players are going to accept harden flying off to strip clubs and not showing up until right before gametime. But if you dont let him do that he will demand a trade.

I'm not ready to give up a young Jaylen Brown for a disgruntled lockerroom cancer. no matter how talented he may be
Guess we can just invent whatever narrative we want now? That didn't happen.

Secondly, the greatest team of the modern era (second 3peat Bulls) had someone exactly like that, except he was even more erratic and unreliable, and less talented. Worked for them. Kawhi & AD were causing huge issues in their respective locker-rooms, did that not work out for Toronto / LA?

That was reported by Tim Macmahon in his ESPN piece. That both Russell and Chris were frustrated by James doing whatever he wanted (being late for film sessions, practices etc) and the team not holding him accountable.

You can choose not to believe it, but he didn't make it up.
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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2020, 07:15:38 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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The case against a James Harden trade is James Harden.
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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2020, 07:28:54 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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The case against a James Harden trade is James Harden.

The case for  James Harden trade is James Harden..

Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2020, 07:33:03 PM »

Offline greenhead85

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He has been labelled a pall to the organization.

I think the best solution for him and the Rockets is a buyout. Maybe at a significant discount. Then, he still gets the luxury of choosing where he wants to play to recoup the discount he would receive. then maybe we could enter into the scenario of acquiring him. It would be far-fetched though, as he would more likely join the Nets.

Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2020, 07:41:08 PM »

Offline gouki88

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He has been labelled a pall to the organization.

I think the best solution for him and the Rockets is a buyout. Maybe at a significant discount. Then, he still gets the luxury of choosing where he wants to play to recoup the discount he would receive. then maybe we could enter into the scenario of acquiring him. It would be far-fetched though, as he would more likely join the Nets.
How would it be the best solution for the Rockets to be paying an MVP-calibre player to play elsewhere, for no gain?
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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2020, 07:54:33 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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The case against a James Harden trade is James Harden.

The case for  James Harden trade is James Harden..

Word.

Count me in the, "Pass" camp.   Just not interested.
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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2020, 07:57:30 PM »

Offline greenhead85

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He has been labelled a pall to the organization.

I think the best solution for him and the Rockets is a buyout. Maybe at a significant discount. Then, he still gets the luxury of choosing where he wants to play to recoup the discount he would receive. then maybe we could enter into the scenario of acquiring him. It would be far-fetched though, as he would more likely join the Nets.
How would it be the best solution for the Rockets to be paying an MVP-calibre player to play elsewhere, for no gain?

Depends on how the Rockets see/approach the situation. Really a bitter pill to swallow. The discount can be seen as gain if things/negotiations with other teams just wouldnt push through. They pay him 40M+ annually for the next two years and he's not anymore a part of the Rockets future. A loss,  of maybe, a half of it is still much better. They dont want him there anymore. I believe the feeling is mutual.

Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2020, 08:02:08 PM »

Offline liam

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He has been labelled a pall to the organization.

I think the best solution for him and the Rockets is a buyout. Maybe at a significant discount. Then, he still gets the luxury of choosing where he wants to play to recoup the discount he would receive. then maybe we could enter into the scenario of acquiring him. It would be far-fetched though, as he would more likely join the Nets.
How would it be the best solution for the Rockets to be paying an MVP-calibre player to play elsewhere, for no gain?

Depends on how the Rockets see/approach the situation. Really a bitter pill to swallow. The discount can be seen as gain if things/negotiations with other teams just wouldnt push through. They pay him 40M+ annually for the next two years and he's not anymore a part of the Rockets future. A loss,  of maybe, a half of it is still much better. They dont want him there anymore. I believe the feeling is mutual.

They could at least dump him in a trade for picks and filler if they were going to do that.

Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2020, 08:25:43 PM »

Offline cltc5

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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2020, 08:47:38 PM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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No matter what we’re giving up multiple first-round picks and either Kemba and/or Brown. Perhaps the key to getting Harden without moving Brown is through Lonzo Ball:

https://tradenba.com/trades/vQ6VsJh-n

Step one: We agree to use our TPE on Terry Rozier to take him off Charlotte’s books

Step two: Kemba for Lonzo and Bledsoe

Step three: Lonzo, R. Williams and six second round picks to Charlotte for their 2022, 2024 and 2026 1st round picks (throw in Nesmith if necessary)

Step four: Bledsoe, Langford and six first-round picks (one in each of the next six drafts) for Harden. Rockets can later flip Bledsoe for another pick or two at the deadline, just like they may try with Wall.

End result for us:

Still have a pick in each or the next 6 drafts, including our 2022, 2024 and 2026 1st round picks. And we got Harden/Rozier while only giving up Kemba, Langford, R. Williams, six 2nd round picks and 3 1st round picks, giving us a top 12 of the following (maybe getting Harden brings onboard a ring-chasing vet at the min.):

Harden
Smart
Brown
Tatum
TT

Rozier
Theis
Teague
Nesmith
G. Williams
Ojeyele
Pritchard



Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2020, 09:18:23 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Harden, IMHO, is a cancer and I don't want him on the team.


If he can ball who cares how he acts.  People need to grow up.  You can’t always pick the people you work with.  But you suck up your feelings and make it work for the betterment of the team.  They’re freakin professional athletes for cripes sake.  Too much talk about players being lockeroom problems, etc etc and because grown adults can’t deal with it we sacrifice success so we can all have a bunch of feels.  Enough!  Feelings ain’t bringing us a chip.

Did you learn nothing from the Kyrie Irving disaster ?

Chemistry matters - high school, college or pros (adults). Any organization has to have a level of unity, playing together and everyone pulling in the same direction to be successful. If Harden's attitude and disruptive behavior isn't bad enough, then trying to mix his playing style (dribble, dribble, dribble & shoot) with our current more balanced approach is enough reason to never consider adding this guy to the Celtics.  Didn't you notice how much better Tatum and Brown played when Kyrie was injured ('18 playoffs) and after he was gone last season ?
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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2020, 11:01:50 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Harden, IMHO, is a cancer and I don't want him on the team.


If he can ball who cares how he acts.  People need to grow up.  You can’t always pick the people you work with.  But you suck up your feelings and make it work for the betterment of the team.  They’re freakin professional athletes for cripes sake.  Too much talk about players being lockeroom problems, etc etc and because grown adults can’t deal with it we sacrifice success so we can all have a bunch of feels.  Enough!  Feelings ain’t bringing us a chip.

Did you learn nothing from the Kyrie Irving disaster ?

Chemistry matters - high school, college or pros (adults). Any organization has to have a level of unity, playing together and everyone pulling in the same direction to be successful. If Harden's attitude and disruptive behavior isn't bad enough, then trying to mix his playing style (dribble, dribble, dribble & shoot) with our current more balanced approach is enough reason to never consider adding this guy to the Celtics.  Didn't you notice how much better Tatum and Brown played when Kyrie was injured ('18 playoffs) and after he was gone last season ?
The bolded sounds eerily familiar, are you sure that it doesn't exist on the squad right now?
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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2020, 10:38:22 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Harden, IMHO, is a cancer and I don't want him on the team.


If he can ball who cares how he acts.  People need to grow up.  You can’t always pick the people you work with.  But you suck up your feelings and make it work for the betterment of the team.  They’re freakin professional athletes for cripes sake.  Too much talk about players being lockeroom problems, etc etc and because grown adults can’t deal with it we sacrifice success so we can all have a bunch of feels.  Enough!  Feelings ain’t bringing us a chip.

Did you learn nothing from the Kyrie Irving disaster ?

Chemistry matters - high school, college or pros (adults). Any organization has to have a level of unity, playing together and everyone pulling in the same direction to be successful. If Harden's attitude and disruptive behavior isn't bad enough, then trying to mix his playing style (dribble, dribble, dribble & shoot) with our current more balanced approach is enough reason to never consider adding this guy to the Celtics.  Didn't you notice how much better Tatum and Brown played when Kyrie was injured ('18 playoffs) and after he was gone last season ?
The bolded sounds eerily familiar, are you sure that it doesn't exist on the squad right now?
That is because the team isn't good enough and without Kemba only has 2 solid offensive players on the entire roster.  I mean the starting lineup last night had 3 players that are just bad offensive players that can't create, aren't floor spacers, aren't great passers (Smart is ok there), etc. The team just isn't good enough to do anything more than 1 round in the playoffs (and depending on match-up might not even do that). With Harden it might be good enough to make the Finals.  Harden is a difference maker. 

And Harden's issues have never been on the court.  He has made it work on the court with all different types of players.  Some just as ball dominant as he is.  Irving has had difficulty making it work on the court, takes plays off, and misses 25% of his games.  That isn't Harden.  He shows up every single game and plays hard every single game.  Harden has most certainly had some issues off the court, but I do think a lot of that is Houston coddling him.  I don't think that would be as much an issue here.  And the biggest difference between Harden and Irving, is quite simply that Harden is a significantly better player than Irving.  Like it isn't close.  Harden has put together the greatest 3 offensive seasons since the early 60's (I'd take him over Jordan's 80's peak 3 years even).  What he has been doing is basically unmatched in NBA history.   
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Re: The Case Against a James Harden Trade
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2020, 10:55:42 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Harden, IMHO, is a cancer and I don't want him on the team.


If he can ball who cares how he acts.  People need to grow up.  You can’t always pick the people you work with.  But you suck up your feelings and make it work for the betterment of the team.  They’re freakin professional athletes for cripes sake.  Too much talk about players being lockeroom problems, etc etc and because grown adults can’t deal with it we sacrifice success so we can all have a bunch of feels.  Enough!  Feelings ain’t bringing us a chip.

Did you learn nothing from the Kyrie Irving disaster ?

Chemistry matters - high school, college or pros (adults). Any organization has to have a level of unity, playing together and everyone pulling in the same direction to be successful. If Harden's attitude and disruptive behavior isn't bad enough, then trying to mix his playing style (dribble, dribble, dribble & shoot) with our current more balanced approach is enough reason to never consider adding this guy to the Celtics.  Didn't you notice how much better Tatum and Brown played when Kyrie was injured ('18 playoffs) and after he was gone last season ?
The bolded sounds eerily familiar, are you sure that it doesn't exist on the squad right now?
That is because the team isn't good enough and without Kemba only has 2 solid offensive players on the entire roster.  I mean the starting lineup last night had 3 players that are just bad offensive players that can't create, aren't floor spacers, aren't great passers (Smart is ok there), etc. The team just isn't good enough to do anything more than 1 round in the playoffs (and depending on match-up might not even do that). With Harden it might be good enough to make the Finals.  Harden is a difference maker. 

And Harden's issues have never been on the court.  He has made it work on the court with all different types of players.  Some just as ball dominant as he is.  Irving has had difficulty making it work on the court, takes plays off, and misses 25% of his games.  That isn't Harden.  He shows up every single game and plays hard every single game.  Harden has most certainly had some issues off the court, but I do think a lot of that is Houston coddling him.  I don't think that would be as much an issue here.  And the biggest difference between Harden and Irving, is quite simply that Harden is a significantly better player than Irving.  Like it isn't close.  Harden has put together the greatest 3 offensive seasons since the early 60's (I'd take him over Jordan's 80's peak 3 years even).  What he has been doing is basically unmatched in NBA history.
Teague sounds like a solid offensive player to me (and so does FastPP but he's still a rookie so he's TBD). You're underrating this squad, Brown can now be the focal point of some lineups for us like Tatum and combined with players who can play well off the ball like Smart/TT/Theis we can put out a solid offence out there with the two of them alternating offensive duties alongside Teague. Our problem is that we go away from that completely whenever we go into the final minutes of a close game and lean on a guy who can't handle that heliocentric load, not because a Brown/Tatum duopoly with shooters/finishers/extra passers/offensive rebounders around them doesn't work (last night's game was a good example of our offence being fine if we don't double down on Tatumball, a Smart/Brown/TT/Grant/Teague or FastPP lineup got us back into the game against a Pacers team that was looking to close us out with Brown being a focal point who doesn't try to be an offensive quarterback).

I absolutely agree with you that we should trade for Harden - he's a difference maker who can quarterback elite offences by himself. I would trade Tatum instead of Brown though, Brown's contract is an absolute bargain for a guy who's now close to supermax players below the age of 25 and he fits better next to on-ball talent with his off-ball movement and quick decision making. He's also more versatile as a man defender, so he can cover weak defensive players like Harden better than Tatum (not saying that Tatum is a worse defender than Brown, but most of his defensive value comes from help defence and guarding big wings rather than being an excellent man defender in multiple positions).
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