2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?

[GreenFaith1819]

Marc Gasol isn't a better player than Ben Wallace.  Better offensive, sure, but not a more impactful player to the scoreboard or winning games.  I mean Gasol had several seasons in his prime (11, 14, and 18), where his team was actually better with him on the bench then with him in the game.  Gasol was at his best in the 12/13 season.  It was by far his best and most consistent season.  He deserved that DPOY and he was a beast for Memphis as they won 56 games and made the WCF.  That was his peak season.  He much more a facilitator that season offensively 14.1/7.8/4.0 as the 4th option, but his defense was off the chain.  11.5 win shares and .197 per 48.  No other season even came close to that for Gasol.  That was his best season and I don't think it is close.  And I get why you didn't choose that season because you wanted the shooting version of Gasol, I just think that was a mistake because that is no where near Gasol at his best.  Gasol was at his best when he could focus on defense and not worry about carrying the scoring load.  When he could facilitate out of the post and set up his teammates.  He just wasn't anywhere near the same player defensively once he started scoring more, and defense is what made Gasol as good as he was.  And while it is a perfectly natural progression for a center to move away from the basket as they age (less punishment, less athleticism, less strength, etc.) actually intentionally taking a far inferior version of a player because of fit, just doesn't make sense in this type of situation, especially when the better version actually played a style of basketball more conducive to winning in these sorts of environments (defense, facilitator, etc.).  That is compounded by the fact that taking the scoring version of Gasol doesn't actually get you a top level scorer.  He isn't a #1 option at all, and frankly that is perhaps the biggest criticism I have your team i.e. you have no one to go to with the game on the line.  Nash is a facilitator. Gasol is a facilitator.  Roundfield and Thunder Dan aren't go to scorers.  Lewis is the closest thing you have and sadly we never really go to see if he could actually be that kind of player (and he never even averaged 21 a game).  And you didn't correct that on your bench as World B. Free is the only top level scorer you have.  That just isn't going to cut it.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it - in reference to Gasol.

I believe you're wrong, though - and again are ignoring the fact that just because his stats are different and his impact IN RELATION TO BEING ON MEM TEAM) was different you're completely ignoring the fact of what his TOTAL game would be in THIS format.

I believe Reggie showed us enough flashes during the 90-93 years - as he had to drag an aging Larry Bird, bad ankles McHale and older Chief along. And he'd certainly have a capable PG in Nash.

With my draft position my point was to draft as many MULTI-TALENTED players as I could, fit them together and mold them towards TODAY'S game which I believe I did.

[Darth_Yoda]

Mark Gasol, in any single year, was not elite at anything.

Wallace was elite at defemse and rebounding for multiple seasons
 

Marcs best offensive seasons were his weakest defensive. His best defensive were his weakest offensive.

[GreenFaith1819]

Mark Gasol, in any single year, was not elite at anything.

Wallace was elite at defemse and rebounding for multiple seasons
 

Marcs best offensive seasons were his weakest defensive. His best defensive were his weakest offensive.

What metrics are you cheery picking for this?

[GreenFaith1819]

Mark Gasol, in any single year, was not elite at anything.

Wallace was elite at defemse and rebounding for multiple seasons
 

Marcs best offensive seasons were his weakest defensive. His best defensive were his weakest offensive.

So what was Capela elite at?

[Who]

... the fact that taking the scoring version of Gasol doesn't actually get you a top level scorer.  He isn't a #1 option at all, and frankly that is perhaps the biggest criticism I have your team i.e. you have no one to go to with the game on the line.  Nash is a facilitator. Gasol is a facilitator.  Roundfield and Thunder Dan aren't go to scorers.  Lewis is the closest thing you have and sadly we never really go to see if he could actually be that kind of player (and he never even averaged 21 a game).  And you didn't correct that on your bench as World B. Free is the only top level scorer you have.  That just isn't going to cut it.

Aside from the Ben Wallace vs Marc Gasol = all defense no offense vs lesser D but two way center debate ... this was an interesting side discussion.

Two thoughts

(1) My thinking is that a team needs a top level offensive player but not necessarily a top level scorer. That is how I think of Steve Nash. I believe he is good enough offensively to be the best offensive player on a top quality team because of his elite playmaking and above average scoring. He creates so many opportunities for others around him and makes them all better scorers. He will get his team a good scoring opportunity consistently throughout the game and during the close stretch of games. Much like a go-to scorer just in a different way. 

(2) Steve Nash has said in interviews if he played in today's league he would play more like Steph Curry and shoot way more especially from 3. Nash would be more of a scorer in today's league and less of a facilitator. He says that this is more emphasized in today's league whereas playmaking was more the PG's role when he came into the NBA. According to him, Nash would be bombing away and a prolific scorer in today's league.

This was my line of thinking when I drafted him in the previous Historical Draft and when ranking him in this draft. That he would offer a lot more scoring than during his playing days and that combined with his passing ability makes Nash arguably the best offensive player in this draft.

I also believe this is similarly true of Mark Price. A pass-first PG in his day but a major scoring threat who would be similarly unleashed in today's game. Both due to the (a) hand checking rule changes (b) priority of PG scoring & outside shooting in today's NBA.

[gouki88]

Voting is open, for anyone who wants to! Doesn't close for some time yet though.

Where is the poll?

It’s all done via PM. The rules for voting are simple - rank the teams 1-9 (because you can’t vote for yourself). The team you ranked first gets 9 points, the team you ranked last gets 1 point.

Voting is open, for anyone who wants to! Doesn't close for some time yet though.

In doing our top 10, are we allowed to rate our own team or just others?

Also, do we PM our ballots to you gouki?

Similar to the 2020 one, GMs can’t vote for their own teams. PM me your ballot, I’m collating them in a spreadsheet and will announce the results once I’ve got them all

[gouki88]

Ben Wallace is definitely better than Marc Gasol.

[Roy H.]

Ben Wallace is definitely better than Marc Gasol.

I disagree.  Gasol provides 85% of the defense and much better offense.  The only real deficit is in rebounding.

[RPGenerate]

I think I also prefer Gasol for this type of draft over Wallace. I'm just always a bit down on players with minimal scoring capabilities in a league that has this much talent, as I think it waters down your offense. Thinking about it now, I really like a hypothetical Gasol/Karl Malone duo.

[GreenFaith1819]

Ben Wallace is definitely better than Marc Gasol.

This is more of a Troll post - especially if you can't definitely list "WHAT" he's better at.

Defense? Yes.

Overall skillset? Marc Gasol is better - especially in this setting.

You know better than that.

[gouki88]

Ben Wallace is definitely better than Marc Gasol.

This is more of a Troll post - especially if you can't definitely list "WHAT" he's better at.

Defense? Yes.

Overall skillset? Marc Gasol is better - especially in this setting.

You know better than that.

Defence, rebounding, tougher and more imposing. Those are traits I look for in a big man. Ridiculous of you to describe an opinion as a troll post just because it’s not in agreement with your belief. The whole point of this game is different talent evaluation.

Re: Roy - I don’t think Gasol provides near that much of Wallace’s defence. Gasol was always overrated on defence for my mind. Despite winning a DPOY I never found Gasol to be the best defensive big in the league. He’s a tier below guys like Joakim Noah & Tyson Chandler, who are another tier below guys like Gobert & Wallace.

The guy I’d want defending Moses, Gilmore, and Jokic is the one who made life difficult for Shaq.

[GreenFaith1819]

Ben Wallace is definitely better than Marc Gasol.

This is more of a Troll post - especially if you can't definitely list "WHAT" he's better at.

Defense? Yes.

Overall skillset? Marc Gasol is better - especially in this setting.

You know better than that.

Defence, rebounding, tougher and more imposing. Those are traits I look for in a big man. Ridiculous of you to describe an opinion as a troll post just because it’s not in agreement with your belief. The whole point of this game is different talent evaluation.

Re: Roy - I don’t think Gasol provides near that much of Wallace’s defence. Gasol was always overrated on defence for my mind. Despite winning a DPOY I never found Gasol to be the best defensive big in the league. He’s a tier below guys like Joakim Noah & Tyson Chandler, who are another tier below guys like Gobert & Wallace.

The guy I’d want defending Moses, Gilmore, and Jokic is the one who made life difficult for Shaq.

Then perhaps THAT is what you should've stated as YOUR opinion.

There's no set rules in these things to describe what to look for in the players you draft.

You get your position, you draft the player(s) you see fit to build your team accordingly.

While what YOU state for Ben Wallace is what "YOU" look for in a Big Man evidently not everyone shares your views.

[GreenFaith1819]

Ben Wallace is definitely better than Marc Gasol.

This is more of a Troll post - especially if you can't definitely list "WHAT" he's better at.

Defense? Yes.

Overall skillset? Marc Gasol is better - especially in this setting.

You know better than that.

Defence, rebounding, tougher and more imposing. Those are traits I look for in a big man. Ridiculous of you to describe an opinion as a troll post just because it’s not in agreement with your belief. The whole point of this game is different talent evaluation.

Re: Roy - I don’t think Gasol provides near that much of Wallace’s defence. Gasol was always overrated on defence for my mind. Despite winning a DPOY I never found Gasol to be the best defensive big in the league. He’s a tier below guys like Joakim Noah & Tyson Chandler, who are another tier below guys like Gobert & Wallace.

The guy I’d want defending Moses, Gilmore, and Jokic is the one who made life difficult for Shaq.

Jeff Ruland says hi.

From my memory of Moses, he overpowered opposing players with his strength and toughness as well as immense talent.

Jeff Ruland matches the toughness and strength of Moses and would certainly be able to bang with him in stretches.

As I remember Moses - he out-physicalled players like Kareem and even our own Robert Parish because of his strength.

Additionally - an OLDER Marc Gasol was able to defend Joel Embiid and slow him down somewhat with his OWN size and toughness so I'm certain Marc could fit the bill in stretches with Moses as well.

[Roy H.]

Re: Roy - I don’t think Gasol provides near that much of Wallace’s defence. Gasol was always overrated on defence for my mind. Despite winning a DPOY I never found Gasol to be the best defensive big in the league. He’s a tier below guys like Joakim Noah & Tyson Chandler, who are another tier below guys like Gobert & Wallace.

Gasol was perhaps a “weak” DPOY compared to some other winners, but he was still quite good.  I’d have him ahead of Noah and Chandler, as he was the anchor on a top-3 defense multiple seasons.

I think Gasol’s best season was 2015.  It was his best overall season, with his defense elite and his scoring, passing and rebounding all being well above average.  It’s hard to argue he wouldn’t be a great shooter in the modern era, as he became an excellent 3PT shooter overnight.

That Pau Gasol is going to individually out-produce Wallace every time out, and he will add more to a team offense as well.

[Who]

For today's NBA, I take Marc Gasol over Ben Wallace.

For 15-20 years ago, I take Ben Wallace over Marc Gasol.


The game has changed a lot and it has reduced the defensive impact of great big man defenders like Ben Wallace. He is still a super defender in today's game (DPOY) but he does not get to spend as much time hanging around the paint intimidating drivers and blocking shots. He has to spend more time away from the basket out in the high post or three point line. That makes him less influential as a defender. His defensive versatility and quickness on the perimeter keeps his place as the premier defender in the NBA today but overall less influential than back in 2000-2005.

A two way big man like Marc Gasol who makes everyone around him better on both ends of the court adds more to a team than Ben Wallace who only helps on one end of the court and hinders on the other end.

So for this draft, I have M.Gasol over B.Wallace. I had Gasol above Big Ben in pre-draft rankings and still above Ben now.