2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?

[Jvalin]

A few words on my team cause I suspect nobody is gonna bother to read a really long post.



According to the advanced stats, I got the best SF and the best C in the draft.

VORP by position - Small Forwards (career high in a single season)
1. Kawhi Leonard 7.1
2. Julius Erving 6.9

Box Plus/Minus by position - Small Forwards (career high in a single season)
1. Kawhi Leonard 9.4
2. Julius Erving 7.7

VORP by position - Centers (career high in a single season)
1. Nikola Jokic 7.0
2. Moses Malone 5.5

Box Plus/Minus by position - Centers (career high in a single season)
1. Nikola Jokic 9.1
2. Arvydas Sabonis 6.7

There are teams in the draft that don't even have 1 guy of that calibre on their roster, much less two.

I surrounded Kawhi and Jokic with 3 great 2-way players.

DJ is the best defensive PG in the draft. His accolades speak for themselves: 9 all-defensive team selections, 6 of them in the first team. That's as many as Gary Payton, Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon. He was also a terrific player on the offensive side of the ball. Made the all-NBA first team in 1981 (=arguably top 5 player in the league) and the All-NBA second team in 1980 (=arguably top 10 player in the league). Was in the conversation for the MVP both those seasons (ended up 5th in 1980 and 8th in 1981). He's a 5-time All-Star.

Middleton is an elite wing shooter. His shooting split from last season was 49.7-41.5-91.6. Almost made the 50-40-90 club. He can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot. He can create shots for his teammates (4.3 assists, 2.2 t/o last season). He's a very switchable defender. Long story short, he's a terrific all around player.

Siakam is the perfect glue guy. In fact, here are his on/off stats from 2018/19.

Offense: +8.4
Defense: -5.9 (the Raps were conceding -5.9 points per 100 possessions with him on the court)
Net rating: +14.3

The Raps were 14.3 points per 100 possessions better with Siakam on the floor! This is an absolutely ridiculous number! In comparison, Giannis' net rating last season was +13.5. LeBron's net rating was +10.3.

[GreenFaith1819]

For Moranis -

At center, we are going with 4 time DPOY Ben Wallace.  We absolutely understand the concerns expressed by some regarding Big Ben's offensive limitations, however he is such a good rebounder and defender we think he makes up for it.  There are few players in history that could alter a game defensively like Wallace could.  And we will also remind everyone that Wallace was the best player on a championship winning team. There aren't very many of those players available in this draft that can say that.  He consistently limited Shaq and other centers that were bigger then him, which is all we need from him.  We need him to take on players like Moses while also having the versatility to defend centers like Jokic, and we think he can do both of those things.  In fact, he may be the only center that can defend every other starting center in this without the need for double teams.  That is where his strength and true advantage is.  As for the fit between Wallace and Malone on offense, I feel I need to again state that Greg Ostertag was the starting center on the best Jazz teams and before Ostertag, Felton Spencer was the starting center.  Both Ostertag and Spencer are worse offensive players than Wallace, they are also much less athletic and mobile.  We actually think Wallace's athleticism, strength, and rebounding prowess will actually make Malone better.

I certainly agree with your post here about Ben Wallace but I'm having a hard time reconciling the possibility of Big Ben having to deal with the likes of Jokic, Gasol, Arvydas and even Divac for an extended period of time....

Sure - BW would mitigate the scoring and rebounding of players like Jokic, Gasol, Arvydas and Divac but he wouldn't affect their PASSING...

In a setting like THIS those four multi-faceted Centers wouldn't have much trouble getting the ball to cutters like Nash, Reggie Lewis, Thunder Dan, Roundfield, Rashard Lewis (waiting for an open three in a corner somewhere) or my Offensive Dynamo in World B. Free



This is just "MY" roster.

Jokic, Vlade, and Arvydas would have similar offensive weapons to defer to. And with these four they had decent outside shooting - especially Marc Gasol in his latter years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DlR4wYznQE

Against your roster, Moranis, I think Ben Wallace would have to spend a LOT of time on the perimeter with Marc where his is quite comfortable. This is going to mitigate Ben's effectiveness with shot-blocking and rebounding.

I'm sure you could have Malone guarding Marc on the perimeter but what about Rashard Lewis when he's in the game?

And if Ben Wallace and Karl Malone are busy on the perimeter with Marc and Rashard Lewis OR Milsap who is guarding the basket for the cutters? I know in MEM one of Marc's FAVORITE cutters was Tony Allen



For me personally I could go with Marc, Paul Milsap and Rashard Lewis as deep-shooting Bigs - ALL with the ability to shoot a decent percentage from deep without sniffing the basket BUT with Marc and Milsap especially they can score in other ways if presented to them.

Against Jokic? Jokic is IMO an even BETTER passer than Marc and Arvydas and Divac aren't that far behind at all IMO.

Again this is why I chose Marc - especially in THIS setting...he does MANY things well.

[Moranis]

For Moranis -

At center, we are going with 4 time DPOY Ben Wallace.  We absolutely understand the concerns expressed by some regarding Big Ben's offensive limitations, however he is such a good rebounder and defender we think he makes up for it.  There are few players in history that could alter a game defensively like Wallace could.  And we will also remind everyone that Wallace was the best player on a championship winning team. There aren't very many of those players available in this draft that can say that.  He consistently limited Shaq and other centers that were bigger then him, which is all we need from him.  We need him to take on players like Moses while also having the versatility to defend centers like Jokic, and we think he can do both of those things.  In fact, he may be the only center that can defend every other starting center in this without the need for double teams.  That is where his strength and true advantage is.  As for the fit between Wallace and Malone on offense, I feel I need to again state that Greg Ostertag was the starting center on the best Jazz teams and before Ostertag, Felton Spencer was the starting center.  Both Ostertag and Spencer are worse offensive players than Wallace, they are also much less athletic and mobile.  We actually think Wallace's athleticism, strength, and rebounding prowess will actually make Malone better.

I certainly agree with your post here about Ben Wallace but I'm having a hard time reconciling the possibility of Big Ben having to deal with the likes of Jokic, Gasol, Arvydas and even Divac for an extended period of time....

Sure - BW would mitigate the scoring and rebounding of players like Jokic, Gasol, Arvydas and Divac but he wouldn't affect their PASSING...

In a setting like THIS those four multi-faceted Centers wouldn't have much trouble getting the ball to cutters like Nash, Reggie Lewis, Thunder Dan, Roundfield, Rashard Lewis (waiting for an open three in a corner somewhere) or my Offensive Dynamo in World B. Free

Because we actually saw what Wallace could do against multi-faceted centers like Divac.  He lowered his scoring, rebounding, AND passing.  Wallace was not only an excellent shot blocker but also an excellent steal generator.  He had quick hands.  Super strong.  Super fast.  A great on ball defender, but also help defender by getting into passing lanes and protecting the rim.  Over that 5 year prime period, Wallace averaged 8.2 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 2.8 bpg, 1.8 spg, 1.7 apg, while only turning it over 1.2 times per game and fouling just 2.2 times per game.  He obviously wasn't a great shooter (47.6% from 2) and had no range, but he could pass alright and didn't turn it over so you could absolutely make do with him on offense, especially with his elite offensive rebounding (3.9 offensive rebounds a game during that stretch).  And as bad as people make his offense out to be, he never had a negative OBPM during that 5 year run. 

This idea that the best big man defender since Bill Russell, couldn't defend a guy that could pass just isn't borne out in reality, because he did that quite well.  It also isn't like a guy like Shaq was a poor passer.  Shaq obviously isn't Jokic when it comes to passing, but he wasn't a slouch at it either.  Wallace would absolutely give guys like Jokic fits because he is fast enough to stay with Jokic, but also strong enough that Jokic won't be able to push him around.  There aren't many guys that have that have that sort of complete physical package.  That is in part what made Wallace such a good defender.  He was just physically gifted in such a way that he could do everything defensively and you could leave him alone on the best players in the world.  He could also switch and not get burned because of his quickness and instincts.  During that period, teams just didn't challenge Wallace, they tried to pull him out and isolate him and play without his man on the court and yet he still impacted winning in a way few have. 

[Roy H.]

VORP, etc. are just silly stats.

VORP tells me that Andrei Kirilenko had a substantially higher VORP at his peak than Kawhi.

[Darth_Yoda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM7nCLTGfG4
Point guard, lock down defense, excellent floor spacing, and excellent at collapsing the defense and passing out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmme_HV1ccY
Whop better to catch those kick out passes than one of the greatest shooters the game has ever seen, Ridiculous efficience and was also one of the most clutch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EjHZJL6Jj8&t=144s
Mookie and Reggie give all the space needed, more than he ever had in his career, for 1 of the greatest scorers the game has ever seen do his thing. No one could stop George 1V1 and there is no reason to believe that anyone in this draft can either. In todays game with no hand checking, defensive 3 seconds and the 3pt line Gervin would be an animal to contain. I would argue that Gervin the the best scorer drafted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln7aPnS5okk&t=189s
Hawkins, do everything you could want. Stretch the floor, yes. Defend, yes. create shots from the wing for himself, yes. Create for others, yes. Rebound the ball, yes. Steals and blocked shots, yes. Hawkins was absolutely dominate in the NBA and before that the ABA.  His MASSIVE hands made it next to impossible to take the ball away from him.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYECayVMLCM
Capela is here due to his ability to keep up with the pack of animals I am running. If for some reason a players gets on by Mookie, or Gervin/Reggie are beat by there man, Capela along with Hawkins gives me 2 incredible weakside shotblockers, rebounders. Capela, if switched ont he smaller man, can still defend at a high level. Capela compensated for Hardens and Westbrook lack of defense, so pairing him with some great defenders he will be even better.

[gouki88]

Voting is open, for anyone who wants to! Doesn't close for some time yet though.

[GreenFaith1819]

For Moranis -

At center, we are going with 4 time DPOY Ben Wallace.  We absolutely understand the concerns expressed by some regarding Big Ben's offensive limitations, however he is such a good rebounder and defender we think he makes up for it.  There are few players in history that could alter a game defensively like Wallace could.  And we will also remind everyone that Wallace was the best player on a championship winning team. There aren't very many of those players available in this draft that can say that.  He consistently limited Shaq and other centers that were bigger then him, which is all we need from him.  We need him to take on players like Moses while also having the versatility to defend centers like Jokic, and we think he can do both of those things.  In fact, he may be the only center that can defend every other starting center in this without the need for double teams.  That is where his strength and true advantage is.  As for the fit between Wallace and Malone on offense, I feel I need to again state that Greg Ostertag was the starting center on the best Jazz teams and before Ostertag, Felton Spencer was the starting center.  Both Ostertag and Spencer are worse offensive players than Wallace, they are also much less athletic and mobile.  We actually think Wallace's athleticism, strength, and rebounding prowess will actually make Malone better.

I certainly agree with your post here about Ben Wallace but I'm having a hard time reconciling the possibility of Big Ben having to deal with the likes of Jokic, Gasol, Arvydas and even Divac for an extended period of time....

Sure - BW would mitigate the scoring and rebounding of players like Jokic, Gasol, Arvydas and Divac but he wouldn't affect their PASSING...

In a setting like THIS those four multi-faceted Centers wouldn't have much trouble getting the ball to cutters like Nash, Reggie Lewis, Thunder Dan, Roundfield, Rashard Lewis (waiting for an open three in a corner somewhere) or my Offensive Dynamo in World B. Free

Because we actually saw what Wallace could do against multi-faceted centers like Divac.  He lowered his scoring, rebounding, AND passing.  Wallace was not only an excellent shot blocker but also an excellent steal generator.  He had quick hands.  Super strong.  Super fast.  A great on ball defender, but also help defender by getting into passing lanes and protecting the rim.  Over that 5 year prime period, Wallace averaged 8.2 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 2.8 bpg, 1.8 spg, 1.7 apg, while only turning it over 1.2 times per game and fouling just 2.2 times per game.  He obviously wasn't a great shooter (47.6% from 2) and had no range, but he could pass alright and didn't turn it over so you could absolutely make do with him on offense, especially with his elite offensive rebounding (3.9 offensive rebounds a game during that stretch).  And as bad as people make his offense out to be, he never had a negative OBPM during that 5 year run. 

This idea that the best big man defender since Bill Russell, couldn't defend a guy that could pass just isn't borne out in reality, because he did that quite well.  It also isn't like a guy like Shaq was a poor passer.  Shaq obviously isn't Jokic when it comes to passing, but he wasn't a slouch at it either.  Wallace would absolutely give guys like Jokic fits because he is fast enough to stay with Jokic, but also strong enough that Jokic won't be able to push him around.  There aren't many guys that have that have that sort of complete physical package.  That is in part what made Wallace such a good defender.  He was just physically gifted in such a way that he could do everything defensively and you could leave him alone on the best players in the world.  He could also switch and not get burned because of his quickness and instincts.  During that period, teams just didn't challenge Wallace, they tried to pull him out and isolate him and play without his man on the court and yet he still impacted winning in a way few have.

I get this, but what would Ben Wallace do in Half Court sets? On Offense?

As great a defender as Ben was - and he would be a great modern day one like my Dan Roundfield - his numbers assist-wise and his total offense would be a concern.

For ME - and I think those who drafted Jokic, Vlade and Arvydas - you HAVE to be able to give something in the halfcourt sets....

For ME - I'm not expecting Dan Roundfield to shoot threes, nor become a Marc Gasol-like passer but he DID average 2.3 assist for the year I chose.

Ben Wallace did not average over 2 assists until he was past his prime.

Again - I get the affect he has on DEFENSE....but in halfcourt offense sets.............

Ben Wallace never averaged over 10 points a game on offense.

At least for Dan Roundfield he was a double-double machine offensively and an elite defender and certainly nimble enough to guard in today's game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFnJ12Jiwys

This is Dan Roundfield's All-Star game, with Larry Bird.

Marc Gasol would LOVE Dan on his team in this Historical Draft setup.

[Darth_Yoda]

Voting is open, for anyone who wants to! Doesn't close for some time yet though.

Where is the poll?

[nickagneta]

Voting is open, for anyone who wants to! Doesn't close for some time yet though.

In doing our top 10, are we allowed to rate our own team or just others?

Also, do we PM our ballots to you gouki?

[Moranis]

For Moranis -

At center, we are going with 4 time DPOY Ben Wallace.  We absolutely understand the concerns expressed by some regarding Big Ben's offensive limitations, however he is such a good rebounder and defender we think he makes up for it.  There are few players in history that could alter a game defensively like Wallace could.  And we will also remind everyone that Wallace was the best player on a championship winning team. There aren't very many of those players available in this draft that can say that.  He consistently limited Shaq and other centers that were bigger then him, which is all we need from him.  We need him to take on players like Moses while also having the versatility to defend centers like Jokic, and we think he can do both of those things.  In fact, he may be the only center that can defend every other starting center in this without the need for double teams.  That is where his strength and true advantage is.  As for the fit between Wallace and Malone on offense, I feel I need to again state that Greg Ostertag was the starting center on the best Jazz teams and before Ostertag, Felton Spencer was the starting center.  Both Ostertag and Spencer are worse offensive players than Wallace, they are also much less athletic and mobile.  We actually think Wallace's athleticism, strength, and rebounding prowess will actually make Malone better.

I certainly agree with your post here about Ben Wallace but I'm having a hard time reconciling the possibility of Big Ben having to deal with the likes of Jokic, Gasol, Arvydas and even Divac for an extended period of time....

Sure - BW would mitigate the scoring and rebounding of players like Jokic, Gasol, Arvydas and Divac but he wouldn't affect their PASSING...

In a setting like THIS those four multi-faceted Centers wouldn't have much trouble getting the ball to cutters like Nash, Reggie Lewis, Thunder Dan, Roundfield, Rashard Lewis (waiting for an open three in a corner somewhere) or my Offensive Dynamo in World B. Free

Because we actually saw what Wallace could do against multi-faceted centers like Divac.  He lowered his scoring, rebounding, AND passing.  Wallace was not only an excellent shot blocker but also an excellent steal generator.  He had quick hands.  Super strong.  Super fast.  A great on ball defender, but also help defender by getting into passing lanes and protecting the rim.  Over that 5 year prime period, Wallace averaged 8.2 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 2.8 bpg, 1.8 spg, 1.7 apg, while only turning it over 1.2 times per game and fouling just 2.2 times per game.  He obviously wasn't a great shooter (47.6% from 2) and had no range, but he could pass alright and didn't turn it over so you could absolutely make do with him on offense, especially with his elite offensive rebounding (3.9 offensive rebounds a game during that stretch).  And as bad as people make his offense out to be, he never had a negative OBPM during that 5 year run. 

This idea that the best big man defender since Bill Russell, couldn't defend a guy that could pass just isn't borne out in reality, because he did that quite well.  It also isn't like a guy like Shaq was a poor passer.  Shaq obviously isn't Jokic when it comes to passing, but he wasn't a slouch at it either.  Wallace would absolutely give guys like Jokic fits because he is fast enough to stay with Jokic, but also strong enough that Jokic won't be able to push him around.  There aren't many guys that have that have that sort of complete physical package.  That is in part what made Wallace such a good defender.  He was just physically gifted in such a way that he could do everything defensively and you could leave him alone on the best players in the world.  He could also switch and not get burned because of his quickness and instincts.  During that period, teams just didn't challenge Wallace, they tried to pull him out and isolate him and play without his man on the court and yet he still impacted winning in a way few have.

I get this, but what would Ben Wallace do in Half Court sets? On Offense?

As great a defender as Ben was - and he would be a great modern day one like my Dan Roundfield - his numbers assist-wise and his total offense would be a concern.

For ME - and I think those who drafted Jokic, Vlade and Arvydas - you HAVE to be able to give something in the halfcourt sets....

For ME - I'm not expecting Dan Roundfield to shoot threes, nor become a Marc Gasol-like passer but he DID average 2.3 assist for the year I chose.

Ben Wallace did not average over 2 assists until he was past his prime.

Again - I get the affect he has on DEFENSE....but in halfcourt offense sets.............

Ben Wallace never averaged over 10 points a game on offense.

At least for Dan Roundfield he was a double-double machine offensively and an elite defender and certainly nimble enough to guard in today's game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFnJ12Jiwys

This is Dan Roundfield's All-Star game, with Larry Bird.

Marc Gasol would LOVE Dan on his team in this Historical Draft setup.

Again the Jazz were in the 97 Finals with Greg Ostertag as the starting center.  Greg and his 7.3 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 0.4 apg and he was backed up by Adam Keefe who was even worse.  The following year, they added Greg Foster and his 45% shooting to the mix.  The idea that a guy who was a far more gifted athlete, who was a better passer than those 3 guys, that basically outrebounded them on his own (including on the offensive glass), etc. couldn't work with the Mailman with a significantly better supporting cast, is just strange to me.  This isn't a league that is filled with top 10 guys all time.  In fact, according to most lists (including ESPN) there are exactly 2, Moses and Mikan (who is on my team).  And Moses doesn't have the skill set to really punish Wallace because he wasn't a great passer, ball handler, and won't stretch the floor either. 

And the simple reality is, there has been 1 champion in basically the entire history of the league that has had a stretch center, and the Raptors only won because the best team was devastated with injuries.  The Lakers started Javale McGee or Dwight Howard basically every game this year, including the playoffs.  Javale Mcgee was the starting center for the Warriors.  Before that you had Tristan Thompson and Andrew Bogut winning titles (Bogut was a solid passer, but was clogging up the lane).  Haslem was the starting center for the Heat Big 3 4 Heat teams, he shot 58 3 pointers in his entire 17 year career.  The Heat again just made the Finals this past year with Bam and his 2 of 14 from 3 for the entire season (and 0 for 1 in the playoffs) manning the middle.  I just think this idea that everyone has to shoot isn't born out of reality.  It is fun to say, but that isn't what makes championship basketball.  Modern basketball is filled with champions that have the defensive oriented, rebounding big man.  That is what makes a modern champion, not a stretch center. 

And there will obviously be times when the 9th greatest center in league history (Mikan) will be my center or where the smaller more athletic Spencer Haywood will be manning the middle in the uber athletic smaller lineup.  It isn't like Wallace is going to be out there for 48 minutes.  He won't be, but when he is out there, the offense will be fine, because he is basically the prototypical modern championship winning center, except better. 

[GreenFaith1819]

I don't know, Moranis...

The last several championships had Anthony Davis as the big.....Kawhi Leonard as the best player on the TOR team....

GSW had Kevin Looney? We all know Steph/Durant/Klay/Draymond were the best players there...

LeBron had Tristan Thompson on CLE's lone championship.

By your metric then even Marc Gasol (and other Bigs in this draft) play would be elevated due to just about EVERY PLAYER in this draft having great talent around them.

Ben Wallace's game is not the ONLY one to be elevated, here.

[Moranis]

I don't know, Moranis...

The last several championships had Anthony Davis as the big.....Kawhi Leonard as the best player on the TOR team....

GSW had Kevin Looney? We all know Steph/Durant/Klay/Draymond were the best players there...

LeBron had Tristan Thompson on CLE's lone championship.

By your metric then even Marc Gasol (and other Bigs in this draft) play would be elevated due to just about EVERY PLAYER in this draft having great talent around them.

Ben Wallace's game is not the ONLY one to be elevated, here.

Karl Malone is better than Anthony Davis though and Ben Wallace is way better than McGee/Howard.  Sure all the teams have much better talent than actual teams, that is sort of the point of these, but Marc Gasol isn't a better player than Ben Wallace.  He wasn't more impactful either.  And by taking the 16-17 version of Gasol, you lose a lot of what made Gasol great, i.e. his defense.  That year he only had 7.7 win shares at .145 per 48.  The Grizzlies were a 43 win team that lost in the 1st round of the playoffs.  He was a terrible rebounder at only 6.3 a game.  Sure he extended out to the 3 point line, but that made Gasol less valuable as a player, because his strengths were down low.  Now because Roundfield is your starting PF, maybe you couldn't have 2 interior oriented big guys, but it isn't like Roundfield is stretching the floor, so you also have a guy that is clogging the middle, isn't a great passer, commits fouls and turnovers at a decent clip, etc.  Roundfield is obviously a better offensive player than Wallace, but I'd take Malone over Roundfield and Gasol combined.  He is just that good. 

Actual evidence yields to the conclusion that stretch centers don't win you titles.  I have the entire league history supporting the position I'm taking.  I'd rather be on that side of history.  The one that actually wins titles because that is the point of these things.  And frankly with Roundfield you are almost supporting that take because Roundfield is not leaving the key.  He is right there next to Wallace (and frankly gives Wallace someone to guard that is actually in the key where Wallace's greater defensive skills are - and because of Gasol's placement Malone can fairly easily guard him). 

[GreenFaith1819]

I don't know, Moranis...

The last several championships had Anthony Davis as the big.....Kawhi Leonard as the best player on the TOR team....

GSW had Kevin Looney? We all know Steph/Durant/Klay/Draymond were the best players there...

LeBron had Tristan Thompson on CLE's lone championship.

By your metric then even Marc Gasol (and other Bigs in this draft) play would be elevated due to just about EVERY PLAYER in this draft having great talent around them.

Ben Wallace's game is not the ONLY one to be elevated, here.

Karl Malone is better than Anthony Davis though and Ben Wallace is way better than McGee/Howard.  Sure all the teams have much better talent than actual teams, that is sort of the point of these, but Marc Gasol isn't a better player than Ben Wallace.  He wasn't more impactful either.  And by taking the 16-17 version of Gasol, you lose a lot of what made Gasol great, i.e. his defense.  That year he only had 7.7 win shares at .145 per 48.  The Grizzlies were a 43 win team that lost in the 1st round of the playoffs.  He was a terrible rebounder at only 6.3 a game.  Sure he extended out to the 3 point line, but that made Gasol less valuable as a player, because his strengths were down low.  Now because Roundfield is your starting PF, maybe you couldn't have 2 interior oriented big guys, but it isn't like Roundfield is stretching the floor, so you also have a guy that is clogging the middle, isn't a great passer, commits fouls and turnovers at a decent clip, etc.  Roundfield is obviously a better offensive player than Wallace, but I'd take Malone over Roundfield and Gasol combined.  He is just that good. 

Actual evidence yields to the conclusion that stretch centers don't win you titles.  I have the entire league history supporting the position I'm taking.  I'd rather be on that side of history.  The one that actually wins titles because that is the point of these things.  And frankly with Roundfield you are almost supporting that take because Roundfield is not leaving the key.  He is right there next to Wallace (and frankly gives Wallace someone to guard that is actually in the key where Wallace's greater defensive skills are - and because of Gasol's placement Malone can fairly easily guard him).

Sorry man...you lost me after you stated this.



LOOK - I'd guess that some players here have already made up their minds on rankings and that's ok

But you are simply wrong, here Moranis.

And just because I chose the 16-17 version of Marc certainly doesn't mean that his DEFENSE is lacking that year, as well. I'm certain that Marc had NOT lost his all-around ability to play down low even though his coach had him taking more threes.

I'm sure you know this but are trying to cheery-pick stats.

I mean - the OLDER Marc Gasol bodied up and defended Joel Embiid VERY WELL in the TOR/PHI series, so that's that.

And as for your 2nd bolded - some posters here aren't as fortunate enough to pick THAT HIGH - in a limited draft as it was.

[GreenFaith1819]

Saying that Ben Wallace is better than Marc Gasol is like saying that Ben Wallace is better than Nikola Jokic



C'mon Moranis.

Look you have a fine team but Ben Wallace is a GREAT Role Player, at best.

[Moranis]

Marc Gasol isn't a better player than Ben Wallace.  Better offensive, sure, but not a more impactful player to the scoreboard or winning games.  I mean Gasol had several seasons in his prime (11, 14, and 18), where his team was actually better with him on the bench then with him in the game.  Gasol was at his best in the 12/13 season.  It was by far his best and most consistent season.  He deserved that DPOY and he was a beast for Memphis as they won 56 games and made the WCF.  That was his peak season.  He much more a facilitator that season offensively 14.1/7.8/4.0 as the 4th option, but his defense was off the chain.  11.5 win shares and .197 per 48.  No other season even came close to that for Gasol.  That was his best season and I don't think it is close.  And I get why you didn't choose that season because you wanted the shooting version of Gasol, I just think that was a mistake because that is no where near Gasol at his best.  Gasol was at his best when he could focus on defense and not worry about carrying the scoring load.  When he could facilitate out of the post and set up his teammates.  He just wasn't anywhere near the same player defensively once he started scoring more, and defense is what made Gasol as good as he was.  And while it is a perfectly natural progression for a center to move away from the basket as they age (less punishment, less athleticism, less strength, etc.) actually intentionally taking a far inferior version of a player because of fit, just doesn't make sense in this type of situation, especially when the better version actually played a style of basketball more conducive to winning in these sorts of environments (defense, facilitator, etc.).  That is compounded by the fact that taking the scoring version of Gasol doesn't actually get you a top level scorer.  He isn't a #1 option at all, and frankly that is perhaps the biggest criticism I have your team i.e. you have no one to go to with the game on the line.  Nash is a facilitator. Gasol is a facilitator.  Roundfield and Thunder Dan aren't go to scorers.  Lewis is the closest thing you have and sadly we never really go to see if he could actually be that kind of player (and he never even averaged 21 a game).  And you didn't correct that on your bench as World B. Free is the only top level scorer you have.  That just isn't going to cut it.