2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?

[Somebody]

I was rewatching the 1983 Finals before this draft. One thing in particular stood out about defending Moses in that series and that was that Kareem did do a good job on Moses.

Moses did a lot of his damage in the paint when Kareem was not defending him. Moses did most of his damage offensively against Rambis and Landsberger.  These players were smaller than Moses. They were 6-8/6-9 and probably 230lbs. They simply do not have the size necessary to defend Moses and Moses chewed them up and spit them out.

I thought Kareem was outplaying Moses when they were head-to-head early in the series (Moses out-rebounded KAJ but KAJ outplayed Moses offensively & defensively) but that changed by game 4 when Moses outplayed Kareem.

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The Lakers had injury problems in those Finals. James Worthy did not play. He was hurt. Bob McAdoo played 2 of 4 games and when he did play he was limited. So the Lakers were without 2 of their 6 guys in the series. That hurt their depth which Philly exploited. They had some guys playing in those Finals games that I never remember playing for the Lakers. That is how far down their depth chart they were.

It also put more pressure on Kareem to do more offensively for the team so Riley tried to save Kareem on defense by putting Rambis & Landsberger on Moses instead. Which wrecked their defense.

It would've been nice to have seen a healthy Lakers team play in those Finals. Those games were already close (despite LAL losing each game). That series would've been much tougher if LAL had of been healthy.

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Two other points:

(1) I am not sure about Moses destroying Gobert. Both Parish and Kareem should be decent markers for how Gobert might fare defensively against Moses. Moses will have some joy there, sure. But you can live with that. You are making Moses work and you gain more defensively by letting him attack Gobert one-on-one than you concede defensively by double teaming him. Gobert allows you to play Moses 1-on-1 and live with the consequences.

That is good enough. Especially in a league like this where you are playing the best of the best. You are going to have multiple guys who can score well one-on-one. You just want to stop those guys from feasting (which I believe Gobert can do) or creating wide open shots for others (which again, I believe Gobert can do).

(2) Dodgier ground for Draymond Green. Draymond's defense on centers is over-rated. He plays against mostly limited to solid offensive centers. Most of these guys do not have the skills or physical talent necessary to exploit Draymond effectively. This is not the case with Moses Malone.

Draymond does concede advantages to centers in the post. It is just that most post players are not skilled enough or smart enough to recognize those opportunities. I know that drove me insane watching Aldridge attack Draymond years ago. He just couldn't understand how to attack - where the opportunities were. And then you have guys like Marc Gasol who are not physically gifted enough and have a mechanical one-on-one game. This is not Moses Malone. Neither of these guys.

Guys like Moses Malone who are undersized centers and are used to outplaying bigger longer centers by having to use an added focus on quickness and versatility of moves ... these guys, when they get a little guy on them. Man, it's like Christmas for them. They destroy smaller guys on switches. That is what they do and what Moses in particular did.

Moses Malone is one of the most versatile low post scorers in NBA History. He has loads of moves. He can beat you in so many different ways. His skill-level is under-respected.

I don't think Draymond can guard Moses for anything more than a few seconds at a time. So a switch late in the shot clock - yeah, that's fine. More regular switching would leave Draymond exposed. And any switching of those perimeter guys onto Moses would be death for that defense.

Thoughts on their 1981 matchup? I've watched a game or two from that series and while Moses dwarfed Kareem in the box score, I felt that Kareem did a lot of things better than Malone that weren't captured by the box score (eg. passes that led to assists or power plays for his teammates, the quality of his passes/assists, rim protection, defensive rotations, etc).

And yeah I brought up Green as a guy who can switch onto Moses for a few seconds at the end of a possession when the defence is scrambling rather than guarding him straight up for an entire possession - Roy was talking about switches and I feel that Green can absolutely do that. Also not going to switch any of my perimeter players onto Moses lol, it'll be an immediate scram for Draymond or Gobert to pick Moses up if a mismatch somehow happens.

[Somebody]

Also regarding Moses.

He has to defend on the other end of the court. Having Ibaka, giannis and other small ball centers wpuld be something he has never had to deal with before and I question how well he will handle getting fug out to the 3pt line.

2nd separate thought

Moses Malone did defend small ball centers in his era and outside shooting centers.

(1) Bob McAdoo -- he was one of the best jump-shooting centers of all time. He had an outside shot but he did his best work in the midrange area (14-17 feet). He was 6-9 230lbs. He had good quickness and mobility for a PF but played C to gain an even larger advantage over his opponents. He was not just a shooter but was able to put the ball on the floor and drive. Use that quickness to attack. He was a matchup nightmare.

(2) Dan Issel -- he was the best outside jump-shooting big man of the late 70s early 80s. He was also a small ball center. He was 6-9 and built like a tank. Issel was also able to put the ball on the floor and drive as well as post up. He had similarities to David Lee (PF/C caught between two positions, useful at both) but was tougher and meaner. Dan Issel said Moses Malone was the defender who bothered him the most because Moses was even quicker than he was and could defend him out on the perimeter.

(3) Jack Sikma = more of a traditional center but had a stretch element to his game especially as he got older. More similar to Marc Gasol or Vlade Divac type. He had outside shot, a midrange shot & a dangerous post game. Above average passer as well. Less of a threat to put the ball on the floor but he could be opportunistic.

Small ball centers and stretch centers existed back then and Moses did well against them. Especially Houston Rockets era Moses Malone who had superior quickness. As he put on weight and got older (mid to late 80s) he struggled more.

I wonder about the 1983 Moses who was slower. He had some deceptive quickness when defenders or attackers got lazy and underestimated him but you didn't see it nearly as often as just two years earlier.

And you also have the increase in quantity of PnR as well as his individual check.

Even back then I dont the small ball centers were shooting from 25 feet regularly. So it would have been easier on Moses?

Yes, you are right, it's not exactly the same. There is that extra bit of space and there is the added threat of an extra point on the three point shot vs the long two which changes how much the defense wants to deny the shot.

However, you can build an understanding of how a player (Moses) defends in space. When he is out on the floor away from the basket. When he is more exposed. You can see how he handles a quick five that will try and beat him with speed. And you can see how he can handle jump-shooters.

That difference from 20 feet to 24 feet doesn't change that much in terms of those things.

All this said, I do believe 1983 Moses Malone would struggle more with these type of defensive actions than he would have even 2 years earlier when he noticeably lighter, quicker and more mobile - which was when he was best able to defend these actions.

I've watched a bit of tape regarding young Moses, and while he was quicker back then, I do feel that he wasn't great at rotations and really wasn't all that comfortable at the perimeter - his inclination was to stay near the hoop and be a physical presence under the rim to block shots and rebound. Good defensive centre though, that shot-blocking and defensive rebounding brings value on that end.

(1) This is the main point about Moses' defense. His awareness and activity off the ball as a help defender wasn't great. It comes and goes throughout the game. Sometimes he does it, sometimes he doesn't. It is the mental side of defense. Focus, recognition, awareness, commitment.

Moses had the physical quickness to make those rotations but he was lacking in the mental side.

This is true for both interior and perimeter help defense actions.

(2) The second point about Moses' comfort on the perimeter. You have to compare him to players of his own era. No centers in that era wanted to be away from the rim defensively. Their job was to be the paint. Defend the paint, rebound the ball.

They were only rarely asked to defend outside of the paint and so had little experience of doing so. Put them in today's game where they have to do it more often and that comfort level grows.

So I compare look at these big guys and i compare them to other big men of that era. How do they fare defending away from the basket? Moses was better than most. Particularly one-on-one. You can see his quickness. You see the capacity. You scale that out with added experience and the result is very positive in my view.

Well, young Moses this is.
1983 peak Moses was not as good at these things.

Oh I did compare him to centres of his era and I felt that he liked the cosy confines of the paint a bit too much even for his time - even Kareem was willing to step out and guard perimeter players in a pinch while Moses had the ability but wasn't as willing to step outside. Granted I'm comparing him to some of the best defensive centres of all time, but I'm not sure on how to rate him as a perimeter defender when his intensity on defence waxed and waned pretty frequently as a good but not great defender to begin with. Definitely do think that he can probably pull off a Kevin Love when needed though.

[Who]

Doubling on Moses is doable because Moses is not a great passer. He doesn't see / hit cutters. And while he is able to pass out of double teams back to the perimeter, they are not good passes. They are not quick sharp passes. They are slow hanging passes that allow defenses more time to recover.

That extra time makes a world of difference in terms of how much of an advantage that perimeter player has once he gets the ball over the recovering defense.

I would agree in a lot of cases, but the Kings have such smart, quick decision makers that I think they can handle sub-optimal passes.

Sacramento Kings
PG: Tim Hardaway Sr. (1990-91) / Jrue Holiday (2018-19) / Sam Cassell (2003-04)
SG: Joe Dumars (1992-93) / Danny Ainge (1988-89) / Šarūnas Marčiulionis (1991-92)
SF: Alex English (1982-83) / Jamaal Wilkes (1980-81) / Bruce Bowen (2004-05)
PF: Cliff Robinson (1995-96) / Maurice Lucas (1976-77) / Robert Horry (1995-1996)
C: Moses Malone (1982-83) / Mehmet Okur (2005-06) / Truck Robinson (1977-78)

I think the only guy on that team I don’t really trust is Okur.  That guard rotation in particular just has tremendous basketball IQ.

Being able to handle sub-optimal passes isn't equivalent to creating a highly efficient offence though, and those sub-optimal passes were a rarity in Moses' game + probable TOs with zone defences/stunting being allowed in the modern game.

Agreed. Well said. I wanted to respond to this but brain couldn't find the right words.

The advantage gained by attracting the double is much smaller when the pass out isn't a good one. Even with the right players receiving the pass, their opportunity gained is still smaller due to the mediocre pass.

There is this image of double team = pass = advantage. But not every player is equally effective in that pass out of the double team. The quality of the passer as well as the quality of the receiver is important in determining the advantage gained.

[Roy H.]

Also regarding Moses.

He has to defend on the other end of the court. Having Ibaka, giannis and other small ball centers wpuld be something he has never had to deal with before and I question how well he will handle getting fug out to the 3pt line.

2nd separate thought

Moses Malone did defend small ball centers in his era and outside shooting centers.

(1) Bob McAdoo -- he was one of the best jump-shooting centers of all time. He had an outside shot but he did his best work in the midrange area (14-17 feet). He was 6-9 230lbs. He had good quickness and mobility for a PF but played C to gain an even larger advantage over his opponents. He was not just a shooter but was able to put the ball on the floor and drive. Use that quickness to attack. He was a matchup nightmare.

(2) Dan Issel -- he was the best outside jump-shooting big man of the late 70s early 80s. He was also a small ball center. He was 6-9 and built like a tank. Issel was also able to put the ball on the floor and drive as well as post up. He had similarities to David Lee (PF/C caught between two positions, useful at both) but was tougher and meaner. Dan Issel said Moses Malone was the defender who bothered him the most because Moses was even quicker than he was and could defend him out on the perimeter.

(3) Jack Sikma = more of a traditional center but had a stretch element to his game especially as he got older. More similar to Marc Gasol or Vlade Divac type. He had outside shot, a midrange shot & a dangerous post game. Above average passer as well. Less of a threat to put the ball on the floor but he could be opportunistic.

Small ball centers and stretch centers existed back then and Moses did well against them. Especially Houston Rockets era Moses Malone who had superior quickness. As he put on weight and got older (mid to late 80s) he struggled more.

I wonder about the 1983 Moses who was slower. He had some deceptive quickness when defenders or attackers got lazy and underestimated him but you didn't see it nearly as often as just two years earlier.

And you also have the increase in quantity of PnR as well as his individual check.

Even back then I dont the small ball centers were shooting from 25 feet regularly. So it would have been easier on Moses?

Yes, you are right, it's not exactly the same. There is that extra bit of space and there is the added threat of an extra point on the three point shot vs the long two which changes how much the defense wants to deny the shot.

However, you can build an understanding of how a player (Moses) defends in space. When he is out on the floor away from the basket. When he is more exposed. You can see how he handles a quick five that will try and beat him with speed. And you can see how he can handle jump-shooters.

That difference from 20 feet to 24 feet doesn't change that much in terms of those things.

All this said, I do believe 1983 Moses Malone would struggle more with these type of defensive actions than he would have even 2 years earlier when he noticeably lighter, quicker and more mobile - which was when he was best able to defend these actions.

I've watched a bit of tape regarding young Moses, and while he was quicker back then, I do feel that he wasn't great at rotations and really wasn't all that comfortable at the perimeter - his inclination was to stay near the hoop and be a physical presence under the rim to block shots and rebound. Good defensive centre though, that shot-blocking and defensive rebounding brings value on that end.

(1) This is the main point about Moses' defense. His awareness and activity off the ball as a help defender wasn't great. It comes and goes throughout the game. Sometimes he does it, sometimes he doesn't. It is the mental side of defense. Focus, recognition, awareness, commitment.

Moses had the physical quickness to make those rotations but he was lacking in the mental side.

This is true for both interior and perimeter help defense actions.

(2) The second point about Moses' comfort on the perimeter. You have to compare him to players of his own era. No centers in that era wanted to be away from the rim defensively. Their job was to be the paint. Defend the paint, rebound the ball.

They were only rarely asked to defend outside of the paint and so had little experience of doing so. Put them in today's game where they have to do it more often and that comfort level grows.

So I compare look at these big guys and i compare them to other big men of that era. How do they fare defending away from the basket? Moses was better than most. Particularly one-on-one. You can see his quickness. You see the capacity. You scale that out with added experience and the result is very positive in my view.

Well, young Moses this is.
1983 peak Moses was not as good at these things.

Oh I did compare him to centres of his era and I felt that he liked the cosy confines of the paint a bit too much even for his time - even Kareem was willing to step out and guard perimeter players in a pinch while Moses had the ability but wasn't as willing to step outside. Granted I'm comparing him to some of the best defensive centres of all time, but I'm not sure on how to rate him as a perimeter defender when his intensity on defence waxed and waned pretty frequently as a good but not great defender to begin with. Definitely do think that he can probably pull off a Kevin Love when needed though.

How many minutes of Moses do you think you’ve watched in your life? 

[Who]

I was rewatching the 1983 Finals before this draft. One thing in particular stood out about defending Moses in that series and that was that Kareem did do a good job on Moses.

Moses did a lot of his damage in the paint when Kareem was not defending him. Moses did most of his damage offensively against Rambis and Landsberger.  These players were smaller than Moses. They were 6-8/6-9 and probably 230lbs. They simply do not have the size necessary to defend Moses and Moses chewed them up and spit them out.

I thought Kareem was outplaying Moses when they were head-to-head early in the series (Moses out-rebounded KAJ but KAJ outplayed Moses offensively & defensively) but that changed by game 4 when Moses outplayed Kareem.

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The Lakers had injury problems in those Finals. James Worthy did not play. He was hurt. Bob McAdoo played 2 of 4 games and when he did play he was limited. So the Lakers were without 2 of their 6 guys in the series. That hurt their depth which Philly exploited. They had some guys playing in those Finals games that I never remember playing for the Lakers. That is how far down their depth chart they were.

It also put more pressure on Kareem to do more offensively for the team so Riley tried to save Kareem on defense by putting Rambis & Landsberger on Moses instead. Which wrecked their defense.

It would've been nice to have seen a healthy Lakers team play in those Finals. Those games were already close (despite LAL losing each game). That series would've been much tougher if LAL had of been healthy.

-----------------------

Two other points:

(1) I am not sure about Moses destroying Gobert. Both Parish and Kareem should be decent markers for how Gobert might fare defensively against Moses. Moses will have some joy there, sure. But you can live with that. You are making Moses work and you gain more defensively by letting him attack Gobert one-on-one than you concede defensively by double teaming him. Gobert allows you to play Moses 1-on-1 and live with the consequences.

That is good enough. Especially in a league like this where you are playing the best of the best. You are going to have multiple guys who can score well one-on-one. You just want to stop those guys from feasting (which I believe Gobert can do) or creating wide open shots for others (which again, I believe Gobert can do).

(2) Dodgier ground for Draymond Green. Draymond's defense on centers is over-rated. He plays against mostly limited to solid offensive centers. Most of these guys do not have the skills or physical talent necessary to exploit Draymond effectively. This is not the case with Moses Malone.

Draymond does concede advantages to centers in the post. It is just that most post players are not skilled enough or smart enough to recognize those opportunities. I know that drove me insane watching Aldridge attack Draymond years ago. He just couldn't understand how to attack - where the opportunities were. And then you have guys like Marc Gasol who are not physically gifted enough and have a mechanical one-on-one game. This is not Moses Malone. Neither of these guys.

Guys like Moses Malone who are undersized centers and are used to outplaying bigger longer centers by having to use an added focus on quickness and versatility of moves ... these guys, when they get a little guy on them. Man, it's like Christmas for them. They destroy smaller guys on switches. That is what they do and what Moses in particular did.

Moses Malone is one of the most versatile low post scorers in NBA History. He has loads of moves. He can beat you in so many different ways. His skill-level is under-respected.

I don't think Draymond can guard Moses for anything more than a few seconds at a time. So a switch late in the shot clock - yeah, that's fine. More regular switching would leave Draymond exposed. And any switching of those perimeter guys onto Moses would be death for that defense.

Thoughts on their 1981 matchup? I've watched a game or two from that series and while Moses dwarfed Kareem in the box score, I felt that Kareem did a lot of things better than Malone that weren't captured by the box score (eg. passes that led to assists or power plays for his teammates, the quality of his passes/assists, rim protection, defensive rotations, etc).

And yeah I brought up Green as a guy who can switch onto Moses for a few seconds at the end of a possession when the defence is scrambling rather than guarding him straight up for an entire possession - Roy was talking about switches and I feel that Green can absolutely do that. Also not going to switch any of my perimeter players onto Moses lol, it'll be an immediate scram for Draymond or Gobert to pick Moses up if a mismatch somehow happens.

I haven't seen that series. Maybe I've seen one game but it was a long time ago and I don't remember it.

[Darth_Yoda]

Does anyone else think that the offensive 3 second rule would impact Moses' game in todays NBA?

[Who]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ8BVTiJsWU

Just sayin'.

You gotta love Marc Gasol. He enables so much around him. And on both ends of the court too. He is a dream teammate.

I have the poor man's Marc Gasol in Vlade Divac. What I see as the main differences between the two are: (1) Marc Gasol had more physicality in post defense & boxing out (2) Marc Gasol had superior footwork in defense away from the basket in switches, PnRs or defending perimeter bigs.

Gasol was also more efficient in his shooting but I wonder if that is just part of the times he played in. Bigs being more encouraged to shoot jumpers today than in late 80s / 90s / early 00s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNBq7EgjJic

Nice Vlade video with coach Rick Adelman and some teammates talking about him. Talking about his personality, teamwork and locker room presence.

[Roy H.]

Does anyone else think that the offensive 3 second rule would impact Moses' game in todays NBA?

I don’t.

Look at the guys who played at the time, Shaq being the easiest example.  You would think the rule would affect him, right?  It didn’t.  The year the rule was imposed, his FG% and points per possession went up, and his turnovers per possession went slightly down.

[GreenFaith1819]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ8BVTiJsWU

Just sayin'.

You gotta love Marc Gasol. He enables so much around him. And on both ends of the court too. He is a dream teammate.

I have the poor man's Marc Gasol in Vlade Divac. What I see as the main differences between the two are: (1) Marc Gasol had more physicality in post defense & boxing out (2) Marc Gasol had superior footwork in defense away from the basket in switches, PnRs or defending perimeter bigs.

Gasol was also more efficient in his shooting but I wonder if that is just part of the times he played in. Bigs being more encouraged to shoot jumpers today than in late 80s / 90s / early 00s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNBq7EgjJic

Nice Vlade video with coach Rick Adelman and some teammates talking about him. Talking about his personality, teamwork and locker room presence.

Thanks for analysis.

Love Vlade as well and I give him MUCH credit for his game too - being that he was a main cog of those fun and competitive SAC teams that fought tooth and nail against Kobe's and Shaq's Lakers.

He was viewed as an aberration back then but NOW? In TODAY's NBA?

He'd start and be quite effective.

[Darth_Yoda]

Does anyone else think that the offensive 3 second rule would impact Moses' game in todays NBA?

I don’t.

Look at the guys who played at the time, Shaq being the easiest example.  You would think the rule would affect him, right?  It didn’t.  The year the rule was imposed, his FG% and points per possession went up, and his turnovers per possession went slightly down.

Interesting.

While there are alot of factors that could play into the change in numbers for shaq over that 2 year period, it is curious.

[nickagneta]

When does voting open up?

[Darth_Yoda]

When does voting open up?

Now. I vote Spurs

[Roy H.]

Does anyone else think that the offensive 3 second rule would impact Moses' game in todays NBA?

I don’t.

Look at the guys who played at the time, Shaq being the easiest example.  You would think the rule would affect him, right?  It didn’t.  The year the rule was imposed, his FG% and points per possession went up, and his turnovers per possession went slightly down.

Interesting

It surprised me a bit; I thought there would be at least some impact.  In looking at the stats, the only decline that might have been attributed to the rule was a decline in offensive rebounds, but there was a corresponding decrease in defensive boards as well.  Even there it looks like a one year aberration, as Shaq’s rebounding stats bounced back the next season.

[Roy H.]

I know that CFF hasn’t commented much, but I find his roster construction to be quite interesting:

Washington Wizards
PG: John Stockton/Rajon Rondo/ John Starks
SG: Klay Thompson/Michael Redd/Allan Houston
SF: Gerald Wallace/ Latrell Sprewell/Trevor Ariza
PF: Dennis Rodman/ Zach Randolph/ Ryan Anderson
C:  Arvydas Sabonis, Bam Adebayo/ PJ Brown

The guards are a thing of beauty.  Just really spectacular players who would thrive.  The front court just doesn’t work for me, though.

I wonder, could this team work?

Sabonis
Wallace
Klay
Houston
Stockton

Or:

Bam
ZBo
Klay
Houston
Stockton

There’s some versatility there, but I think they’re hamstrung a bit by the center rotation.

[Somebody]

Does anyone else think that the offensive 3 second rule would impact Moses' game in todays NBA?

I don’t.

Look at the guys who played at the time, Shaq being the easiest example.  You would think the rule would affect him, right?  It didn’t.  The year the rule was imposed, his FG% and points per possession went up, and his turnovers per possession went slightly down.

^this. Zone defences might affect him though.