2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?

[Who]

You can beat those great offences by dragging them down enough for your offence to beat them

Sure, but that’s extraordinarily difficult if you’re essentially playing 4-on-5.  Guys like Wallace and Rodman were great in the actual NBA.  I just don’t think they’d be as effective in any league where opponents started five offensive power houses.

Yeah, it's hard to see that in today's game.

I would be comfortable with it in a Historical League based in the 90s or 80s though. In a more physical league, more post-up orientated league & in a league where rebounding has more value than in today's game ... I believe you can use those guys as starters even against 5 big time scorers.

In today's pace and space & shoot 3s at volume game, I have a hard time with them.

Maybe if you go 4 out. Lots of perimeter scorers and just let them be your Clint Capela type. Lineups like the Bulls had with Rodman next to Kukoc.

C - Rodman
F - Kukoc
F - Pippen
G - Jordan
G - Harper

That type of a setup. 4 perimeter guys with Rodman allowed to hunt for rebounds.

Hard to stick them (Wallace, Rodman) next to a 2nd big man in today's pace and space game without doing more damage to your offense than they can justify with their D & board work.

[Roy H.]

Doubling on Moses is doable because Moses is not a great passer. He doesn't see / hit cutters. And while he is able to pass out of double teams back to the perimeter, they are not good passes. They are not quick sharp passes. They are slow hanging passes that allow defenses more time to recover.

That extra time makes a world of difference in terms of how much of an advantage that perimeter player has once he gets the ball over the recovering defense.

I would agree in a lot of cases, but the Kings have such smart, quick decision makers that I think they can handle sub-optimal passes.

Sacramento Kings
PG: Tim Hardaway Sr. (1990-91) / Jrue Holiday (2018-19) / Sam Cassell (2003-04)
SG: Joe Dumars (1992-93) / Danny Ainge (1988-89) / Šarūnas Marčiulionis (1991-92)
SF: Alex English (1982-83) / Jamaal Wilkes (1980-81) / Bruce Bowen (2004-05)
PF: Cliff Robinson (1995-96) / Maurice Lucas (1976-77) / Robert Horry (1995-1996)
C: Moses Malone (1982-83) / Mehmet Okur (2005-06) / Truck Robinson (1977-78)

I think the only guy on that team I don’t really trust is Okur.  That guard rotation in particular just has tremendous basketball IQ.

[nickagneta]

I won't discuss other centers but I know how my center position will work. It will be center by committee and each person playing the position will be put in a position to use their strengths to their fullest.

DeAndre won't be there to score, but he will be there to set screens, both on and off ball, to get after offensive rebounds and to occasionally rim run. DeAndre will be in there mostly to guard the larger, more offensively oriented centers, to grab defensive rebounds like a vacuum and to outlet into fast breaks. DeAndre will be lucky to see 22 minutes a game.

DeAndre will always have help on defense with exceptional defenders at PF, like Giannis and Anthony Mason assisting with a double team.

The Suns are going to run the ball like crazy. Transition basketball. Get down court and go to the basket before large lumbering centers can get down court and set up for defense. That's why you'll see Giannis playing the 5 in our "death" lineup of Riddick, Booker, Clyde, Granger or Turkoglu, and Giannis. The Suns will do everything they can to run and gun those centers off the court and force other teams to match up to us and not the other way around.

[Who]

Doubling on Moses is doable because Moses is not a great passer. He doesn't see / hit cutters. And while he is able to pass out of double teams back to the perimeter, they are not good passes. They are not quick sharp passes. They are slow hanging passes that allow defenses more time to recover.

That extra time makes a world of difference in terms of how much of an advantage that perimeter player has once he gets the ball over the recovering defense.

I would agree in a lot of cases, but the Kings have such smart, quick decision makers that I think they can handle sub-optimal passes.

Sacramento Kings
PG: Tim Hardaway Sr. (1990-91) / Jrue Holiday (2018-19) / Sam Cassell (2003-04)
SG: Joe Dumars (1992-93) / Danny Ainge (1988-89) / Šarūnas Marčiulionis (1991-92)
SF: Alex English (1982-83) / Jamaal Wilkes (1980-81) / Bruce Bowen (2004-05)
PF: Cliff Robinson (1995-96) / Maurice Lucas (1976-77) / Robert Horry (1995-1996)
C: Moses Malone (1982-83) / Mehmet Okur (2005-06) / Truck Robinson (1977-78)

I think the only guy on that team I don’t really trust is Okur.  That guard rotation in particular just has tremendous basketball IQ.

Yes, I love that guard rotation too. Dumars and Timmy Hardaway is absolutely awesome. They really knit that team together. Those two and Moses are fantastic together.

I am less sure about the forward rotation. I am lukewarm on Alex English and I am more down on Clifford Robinson compared to others.

I would rate C-Rob comparably to Robert Horry which others do not because (1) I rate Horry higher than most (2) I rate Cliffy lower than most.

Clifford Robinson at that juncture in his career when he was his most prolific offensively was highly inconsistent and unreliable (and overall failed more than he succeeded as a go-to scorer). He was inconsistent on defense as well as offense. His best defensive years came later in his career when his offense decreased. So you don't get the best of both. You get one or the other. The defensively inclined or the offensively able Clifford Robinson.

This is why Portland did not fight harder to keep him. He just wasn't that valuable. His impact was less than his numbers. He was one of those fake-stars at that stage in his career.

Personally, I'd choose the defensively inclined more reliable Uncle Cliffy over the younger more dangerous but more inconsistent Uncle Cliffy.

----------

The again, there are quite a few starting PFs that I am unsure about so maybe I will not be as concerned with this after I consider those other players more.

[Who]

Sacramento Kings
PG: Tim Hardaway Sr. / Jrue Holiday / Sam Cassell
SG: Joe Dumars  / Danny Ainge  / Šarūnas Marčiulionis
SF: Alex English  / Jamaal Wilkes / Bruce Bowen
PF: Cliff Robinson / Maurice Lucas  / Robert Horry
C: Moses Malone / Mehmet Okur / Truck Robinson

By the way, I love the Mo Lucas and Jamaal Wilkes picks. Wilkes is a strong backup SF. Two way player. Smart, skilled. Strong shooter. Good defender.

Just the idea of Mo Lucas and Moses Malone together beating up teams in the pain ... man, just thinking about that brings a smile to my face 

There is beauty in that. In that physicality. That destructive brutality. I love it, I just love it.

I am not overly fond of Clifford Robinson but I believe you are right to keep Mo Lucas in the bench role. Moses Malone performed best when paired with a quicker more mobile big who can play outside rather than a slower physical interior based big like Mo Lucas.

Still, just having the option to completely change the nature of the game with one substitution (Cliffy to Lucas). That is awesome. That is a real weapon to have in your bench arsenal.

I loved both of those picks. Not sure I said so at the time so I wanted to make sure I mentioned it. 

[Roy H.]

I won't discuss other centers but I know how my center position will work. It will be center by committee and each person playing the position will be put in a position to use their strengths to their fullest.

DeAndre won't be there to score, but he will be there to set screens, both on and off ball, to get after offensive rebounds and to occasionally rim run. DeAndre will be in there mostly to guard the larger, more offensively oriented centers, to grab defensive rebounds like a vacuum and to outlet into fast breaks. DeAndre will be lucky to see 22 minutes a game.

DeAndre will always have help on defense with exceptional defenders at PF, like Giannis and Anthony Mason assisting with a double team.

The Suns are going to run the ball like crazy. Transition basketball. Get down court and go to the basket before large lumbering centers can get down court and set up for defense. That's why you'll see Giannis playing the 5 in our "death" lineup of Riddick, Booker, Clyde, Granger or Turkoglu, and Giannis. The Suns will do everything they can to run and gun those centers off the court and force other teams to match up to us and not the other way around.

Do you have enough spacing to play a “pace and space” style?  And do you think your PGs are good for that style?

[RPGenerate]

I find this debate about the value of players like Wallace and Rodman in drafts like these to be quite interesting. The question is, do these types of players make up the value in their rebounding and defense, that they lose through being a nearly nonexistent scoring threats? I have a hard time answering this question myself, so I usually avoid those types of players.

Let's say Wallace does do a great job on Moses, and keeps him in check for most of the game (which for Moses, is still a very solid night). Does that make up for the fact that on offense, the team is basically playing 4 1/2 vs 5? Is a guy who isn't quite on the level of Wallace on defense, but can score, pass, shoot, ect. a more valuable player in this type of historical draft?

[nickagneta]

I won't discuss other centers but I know how my center position will work. It will be center by committee and each person playing the position will be put in a position to use their strengths to their fullest.

DeAndre won't be there to score, but he will be there to set screens, both on and off ball, to get after offensive rebounds and to occasionally rim run. DeAndre will be in there mostly to guard the larger, more offensively oriented centers, to grab defensive rebounds like a vacuum and to outlet into fast breaks. DeAndre will be lucky to see 22 minutes a game.

DeAndre will always have help on defense with exceptional defenders at PF, like Giannis and Anthony Mason assisting with a double team.

The Suns are going to run the ball like crazy. Transition basketball. Get down court and go to the basket before large lumbering centers can get down court and set up for defense. That's why you'll see Giannis playing the 5 in our "death" lineup of Riddick, Booker, Clyde, Granger or Turkoglu, and Giannis. The Suns will do everything they can to run and gun those centers off the court and force other teams to match up to us and not the other way around.

Do you have enough spacing to play a “pace and space” style?  And do you think your PGs are good for that style?

Yup, because with Giannis, Clyde and Booker there is more than enough ball-handling to not need a normal PG. So Redick or Kerr could be the PG during my death lineup. With Granger, Hedo, Kerr, Redick, there will be plenty of shooters and even Tony Parker was hitting 39.5% from three in the selected year. Then you have two elite guys in Giannis and Clyde to drive and finish or drive kick. And let's not forget, when Booker gets hot from three, dude can hit from anywhere.

These lineups will be the most deadly offensively in this game, especially given that they include, IMHO, two of the top 6 players in this draft in Drexler and Giannis.

[Roy H.]

especially given that they include, IMHO, two of the top 6 players in this draft in Drexler and Giannis.

Interesting take on Clyde.  I love the dude, but top 6?

Reviewing it, it’s a defensible take.

[Darth_Yoda]

Sacramento Kings
PG: Tim Hardaway Sr. / Jrue Holiday / Sam Cassell
SG: Joe Dumars  / Danny Ainge  / Šarūnas Marčiulionis
SF: Alex English  / Jamaal Wilkes / Bruce Bowen
PF: Cliff Robinson / Maurice Lucas  / Robert Horry
C: Moses Malone / Mehmet Okur / Truck Robinson

By the way, I love the Mo Lucas and Jamaal Wilkes picks. Wilkes is a strong backup SF. Two way player. Smart, skilled. Strong shooter. Good defender.

Just the idea of Mo Lucas and Moses Malone together beating up teams in the pain ... man, just thinking about that brings a smile to my face 

There is beauty in that. In that physicality. That destructive brutality. I love it, I just love it.

I am not overly fond of Clifford Robinson but I believe you are right to keep Mo Lucas in the bench role. Moses Malone performed best when paired with a quicker more mobile big who can play outside rather than a slower physical interior based big like Mo Lucas.

Still, just having the option to completely change the nature of the game with one substitution (Cliffy to Lucas). That is awesome. That is a real weapon to have in your bench arsenal.

I loved both of those picks. Not sure I said so at the time so I wanted to make sure I mentioned it.

Those fuys are not bullying mcginnis/ibaka/laimbeer

[Darth_Yoda]

I think my three favorite teams are (in no order) the Kings, the Grizzlies and the Bucks.  I’m a sucker for a dominant center, regardless of era.

I boo this post.

Likewise, Wallace and Gobert are modern defensive titans. I get that both players aren't on the level of those guys, but these are players who had top 10-15 impact on their teams at their very best.

Let’s use Wallace, since he actually played against great centers.

H2H, Shaq put up 25 / 10 / 3 on 59% shooting.

Wallace averaged 6 / 9 / 1 on 51% shooting.

In any matchup, you’re losing the center battle big time.  On a regular team, Wallace’s teammates could pick up the slack.  Shaq’s Lakers teams were two or three deep with great players.

In a historic draft, the opponents go at least 10 deep.  Losing one matchup in the starting lineup by 20+ points is a huge deficit.

That doesn’t just apply to centers, but they’re the most visible.  A big man shooting 55% inside is still going to be the most consistent and efficient way to score points.

The discrepancy wasn't as great in the 04 Finals.  Shaq was still pretty solid at 26.6/10.8, but Wallace was better at 10.8/13.6.  Shaq also turned it over nearly 3 times as much as well.  In the 05 ECF it was even closer as Shaq went for 20.6/7.6 vs. Wallace's 7.4/10.3.  Overall in the playoffs, Wallace's teams were 14-8 and he went for 8.1/10.7 vs. 21.9/9.3

Obviously Wallace is never going to outscore anyone, but significantly reducing the scoring impact of the opposing center has significant value, even in these all star team type centers because those teams are run through their big guys.  And it isn't like you need 5 scorers on the floor.  Tiny and Mailman are big time scorers and Peja was a 20+ scorer as well.  You can't just have 5 guys that need the ball to be effective.  You have to have the guys that are going to play within the system, know their role, and positively affect the output of the opposing player.  And take Memphis.  Is Mo Cheeks going to slow Tiny down.  What about AK47 on Malone.  Plus he is playing Kobe out of position at SF.  Or the Kings, is Cliff Robinson really going to hang with the Mailman.  I mean they played 49 regular season games against each other, it was over a 10+ difference favoring Malone, and in the playoffs it was over an 18 point difference.  And as much as you can like Siakam, Malone would destroy him lessoning whatever value Jokic might provide offensively over Big Ben.   

They obviously have 3 great offensive centers, but using that as a reason they have the best team without any sort of analysis just doesn't cut it.   That is why I booed the post, it provided no actual context or analysis.

^this. Shaq is still going to be a more voluminous scorer and better creator than most players in the league even with the likes of Wallace or Gobert guarding him, but both of these guys still bring massive value with their defence - they're able to chip away at the efficacy of these big man centric attacks in a way that no other centre can really replicate with spectacular man and team defence.

It just doesn’t work that way.  Great offense is going to beat great defense.  The greatest, most efficient offense is still going to come close to the basket.

“Chipping away” at a dominant center works when he’s got only a few valves to release pressure on him.  In this game, most teams will have five scorers to relieve pressure.

And let’s talk about switching.  How many teams can effectively switch on to Moses Malone, for instance.  I’ve talked before about how these games are about who can exploit the biggest mismatch.  How many teams can effectively guard Moses?

I feel like my team has the horses and the size to defend Malone effectively.

[Darth_Yoda]

Also regarding Moses.

He has to defend on the other end of the court. Having Ibaka, giannis and other small ball centers wpuld be something he has never had to deal with before and I question how well he will handle getting fug out to the 3pt line.

[Jvalin]

as much as you can like Siakam, Malone would destroy him lessoning whatever value Jokic might provide offensively over Big Ben.   

Mismatches work both ways. Siakam ain't strong enough to defend Karl Malone in the paint. Karl Malone ain't mobile enough to defend Siakam on the perimeter.

Malone was one of the most dominant players in the NBA in the 90s. Thing is, the game has evolved big time since then.

Take Karl Malone and Siakam. The former was a surefire 1st rounder in our draft. The latter was a 6th rounder.

• Malone didn't make a single 3pt shot throughout the 1996/97 season. He made 55.5% of his 2pt shots. That's 111 points per 100 possessions.
• Siakam shot 36.9% from 3 in 2.7 attempts per game during the 2018/19 season. That's 110.7 points per 100 possessions.

You only gain a marginal advantage of 0.3 points per 100 possessions, simply because Malone was a non-shooter from 3pt range.

I haven't even touched the advanced stats yet, such as offensive rating. Malone's offensive rating in 1996/97 was 118. Siakam's offensive rating in 2018/19 was 120! This means he was generating 2 more points per 100 possessions! Why? Cause he had the 3pt shot in his arsenal. It's as simple as that! Being able to shoot the 3, worked wonders for his inside game as well. Opponents had to respect his shot, which gave him the opportunity to blow by them on the perimeter and attack the basket. In fact, Siakam was shooting 60.2% from 2pt range in 2018/19 (again, the respective number for Malone was 55.5%). Obviously, Siakam ain't a better inside scorer than Malone. He's a much more versatile shooter though, hence he's more efficient.

You could argue that Malone would have adjusted his game to fit in the modern era. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. There's no way to know for sure whether he'd become an efficient 3pt shooter. Don't get me wrong, Malone is an all-time great. He would have been a great player in any era. My point is, you can't have multiple non-shooters in your lineup. It wouldn't be an efficient lineup anymore. At least, this is how I see it.

There are plenty of teams with multiple non-shooters in their lineups. With all due respect, imo these teams wouldn't cut it in today's game.

[Who]

Also regarding Moses.

He has to defend on the other end of the court. Having Ibaka, giannis and other small ball centers wpuld be something he has never had to deal with before and I question how well he will handle getting fug out to the 3pt line.

This is something I was wondering about prior to the draft when I was considering drafting Moses #1 = I was wondering if a younger Moses from say 1981 Rockets would fare better than 1983 Sixers Moses Malone.

My thinking being that Moses was quicker and more mobile in Houston that year before bulking up more to become more physically dominant in the paint in 1983 when he became peak Moses.

What if peak Moses of 1983 (built for the NBA of the 1980s) is not the same peak Moses in today's game? What if peak Moses would have been 1981 Moses? The younger quicker more able to defend away from the basket Moses Malone. The guy who could handle perimeter bigs and PnRs without trouble. Is that Moses (1981 Moses) a better Moses than 1983 Moses?

[Who]

Also regarding Moses.

He has to defend on the other end of the court. Having Ibaka, giannis and other small ball centers wpuld be something he has never had to deal with before and I question how well he will handle getting fug out to the 3pt line.

2nd separate thought

Moses Malone did defend small ball centers in his era and outside shooting centers.

(1) Bob McAdoo -- he was one of the best jump-shooting centers of all time. He had an outside shot but he did his best work in the midrange area (14-17 feet). He was 6-9 230lbs. He had good quickness and mobility for a PF but played C to gain an even larger advantage over his opponents. He was not just a shooter but was able to put the ball on the floor and drive. Use that quickness to attack. He was a matchup nightmare.

(2) Dan Issel -- he was the best outside jump-shooting big man of the late 70s early 80s. He was also a small ball center. He was 6-9 and built like a tank. Issel was also able to put the ball on the floor and drive as well as post up. He had similarities to David Lee (PF/C caught between two positions, useful at both) but was tougher and meaner. Dan Issel said Moses Malone was the defender who bothered him the most because Moses was even quicker than he was and could defend him out on the perimeter.

(3) Jack Sikma = more of a traditional center but had a stretch element to his game especially as he got older. More similar to Marc Gasol or Vlade Divac type. He had outside shot, a midrange shot & a dangerous post game. Above average passer as well. Less of a threat to put the ball on the floor but he could be opportunistic.

Small ball centers and stretch centers existed back then and Moses did well against them. Especially Houston Rockets era Moses Malone who had superior quickness. As he put on weight and got older (mid to late 80s) he struggled more.

I wonder about the 1983 Moses who was slower. He had some deceptive quickness when defenders or attackers got lazy and underestimated him but you didn't see it nearly as often as just two years earlier.

And you also have the increase in quantity of PnR as well as his individual check.