2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?

[nickagneta]

After today:

PG: John Stockton, Rajon Rondo
SG: Klay Thompson, Michael Redd
SF: Gerald Wallace
PF: Dennis Rodman, Zach Randolph
C: Arvydas Sabonis, Bam Adebayo

Love every member of that backcourt. Just excellent. Rodman is sensational. The ying and yang that is the difference in Sabonis' and Adebayo's games is intriguing to help set up different types of 5 man groups.

But man, your SF situation is not good. Not at all. You have to do something there. Maybe move Wallace to the bench, Rodman to SF and start Randolph?!?!?!

[nickagneta]

After 9, your Memphis Grizzlies

Mo Cheeks / Isaiah Thomas
Manu Ginobili / Paul Pressey
Kobe Bryant / Ron Artest
Andrei Kirilenko / Dan Issel
Artis Gilmore

I’m weighing up a few things. Would starting IT & Pressey over Cheeks & Manu be the right call? IT’s best year is MVP-level, and with 3 All-Defensive First Team guys (Kobe, Pressey, AK47) plus an All-Defensive Second Team anchor in Gilmore it would help him flourish in that true #2 role. Hard to defend two of the best perimeter scorers in the comp.

Any thoughts?

Manu was one of the best 6th men ever. I say move Kobe back to his accustomed SG spot, move Arrest to start and Manu to the bench as 6th man. Remember Kobe and Attest played alongside each other and you should take advantage of that synergy.

I see Issel as more of a center, and as a backup center, he is awesome, but I think he would get abused defensively by some of the 4s that would play in this game if he is your backup 4.

Is there a good stretch 4 left in the draft? If so go get him to back up AK47.

[gouki88]

After 9, your Memphis Grizzlies

Mo Cheeks / Isaiah Thomas
Manu Ginobili / Paul Pressey
Kobe Bryant / Ron Artest
Andrei Kirilenko / Dan Issel
Artis Gilmore

I’m weighing up a few things. Would starting IT & Pressey over Cheeks & Manu be the right call? IT’s best year is MVP-level, and with 3 All-Defensive First Team guys (Kobe, Pressey, AK47) plus an All-Defensive Second Team anchor in Gilmore it would help him flourish in that true #2 role. Hard to defend two of the best perimeter scorers in the comp.

Any thoughts?

Manu was one of the best 6th men ever. I say move Kobe back to his accustomed SG spot, move Arrest to start and Manu to the bench as 6th man. Remember Kobe and Attest played alongside each other and you should take advantage of that synergy.

I see Issel as more of a center, and as a backup center, he is awesome, but I think he would get abused defensively by some of the 4s that would play in this game if he is your backup 4.

Is there a good stretch 4 left in the draft? If so go get him to back up AK47.

That’s definitely been another consideration. I love the idea of Manu off the bench, and the season I’m using of his is a season he came off the bench.

I do agree about Issel. Put him there as a placeholder in case one of my binkie big men fell (like Vucevic ). There’s a specific guy I have in mind to pair with him actually. Thanks for the feedback!

[gouki88]

After 9, your Memphis Grizzlies

Mo Cheeks / Isaiah Thomas
Manu Ginobili / Jerry Sloan
Kobe Bryant / Ron Artest
Andrei Kirilenko / Dan Issel
Artis Gilmore

I’m weighing up a few things. Would starting IT & Sloan over Cheeks & Manu be the right call? IT’s best year is MVP-level, and with 3 All-Defensive First Team guys (Kobe, Sloan, AK47) plus an All-Defensive Second Team anchor in Gilmore it would help him flourish in that true #2 role. Hard to defend two of the best perimeter scorers in the comp.

Any thoughts?

I definitely wouldn't start IT. Both Kobe and IT are at their best when playing with the ball in their hands. We both know that Kobe ain't playing off the ball, hence IT would have to reinvent himself as an off-ball shooter. What's the point in using IT as an off-ball shooter? His defense is abysmal. Unless he shoots the lights out every night, he'd probably become a net negative. You'd be much better with a 3+D PG in that role.

Long story short, you gotta have IT on the ball in order to maximize his effectiveness. Imo, Kobe and IT should never share the floor. Here's what I would do.

PG: Mo Cheeks (38) - IT (10)
SG: Kobe (16) - Manu (32) - Sloan
SF: Artest (26) - Kobe (22)  - Sloan
PF: Kirilenko (36) - Issel (12)
C: Gilmore (36) - Issel (12)

(or something along these lines)

Kobe plays a total of 38 minutes (=16+22). IT plays the remaining 10 minutes when Kobe seats on the bench.

Feels like a waste of talent to have Manu coming off the bench, but I'm not a fan of Kobe at SF tbh. Problem is, you have 2 of your top 3 players playing the same position. Imo, you should consider trading Manu for an upgrade at PG or SF. I also believe that you desperately need a shooter.

I don’t buy into the narrative that Kobe can’t exist with another ball-dominant player, especially when I’m choosing Kobe’s season where he averaged 30PPG next to Shaq, while averaging 6APG, hitting Jayson Tatum like efficiency and making the All-Defensive 1st team. I think he’d be able to play alongside anyone given his drive for winning.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Roy H.]

After 9, your Memphis Grizzlies

Mo Cheeks / Isaiah Thomas
Manu Ginobili / Jerry Sloan
Kobe Bryant / Ron Artest
Andrei Kirilenko / Dan Issel
Artis Gilmore

I’m weighing up a few things. Would starting IT & Sloan over Cheeks & Manu be the right call? IT’s best year is MVP-level, and with 3 All-Defensive First Team guys (Kobe, Sloan, AK47) plus an All-Defensive Second Team anchor in Gilmore it would help him flourish in that true #2 role. Hard to defend two of the best perimeter scorers in the comp.

Any thoughts?

I definitely wouldn't start IT. Both Kobe and IT are at their best when playing with the ball in their hands. We both know that Kobe ain't playing off the ball, hence IT would have to reinvent himself as an off-ball shooter. What's the point in using IT as an off-ball shooter? His defense is abysmal. Unless he shoots the lights out every night, he'd probably become a net negative. You'd be much better with a 3+D PG in that role.

Long story short, you gotta have IT on the ball in order to maximize his effectiveness. Imo, Kobe and IT should never share the floor. Here's what I would do.

PG: Mo Cheeks (38) - IT (10)
SG: Kobe (16) - Manu (32) - Sloan
SF: Artest (26) - Kobe (22)  - Sloan
PF: Kirilenko (36) - Issel (12)
C: Gilmore (36) - Issel (12)

(or something along these lines)

Kobe plays a total of 38 minutes (=16+22). IT plays the remaining 10 minutes when Kobe seats on the bench.

Feels like a waste of talent to have Manu coming off the bench, but I'm not a fan of Kobe at SF tbh. Problem is, you have 2 of your top 3 players playing the same position. Imo, you should consider trading Manu for an upgrade at PG or SF. I also believe that you desperately need a shooter.

I don’t buy into the narrative that Kobe can’t exist with another ball-dominant player, especially when I’m choosing Kobe’s season where he averaged 30PPG next to Shaq, while averaging 6APG, hitting Jayson Tatum like efficiency and making the All-Defensive 1st team. I think he’d be able to play alongside anyone given his drive for winning.

Thanks for the feedback!

Yeah, it’s somewhat of a false narrative.  Kobe/Shaq, Lebron/Wade, Lebron/Davis, Magic/Kareem, etc., etc.  Numerous teams have won with multiple ball dominant players.

The real question is, can one of those two stars defer?  I think that IT can do so, particularly to Kobe.

I’m not sure that I’d start IT, but I think the sentiment that he can’t share the floor with Kobe to be off-base.

EDIT:

As I think about it, though, a starting lineup of IT / Manu / Kobe / Gilmore is pretty dang hard to stop.  Who can guard that team?  I do agree with nick that a more traditional floor spacer at PF would help, although it’s not like AK was parked in the paint.

[Moranis]

Through 9 Rounds here are the Toronto Raptors

Guards - Tiny Archibald 73, Michael Cooper 87
Wings - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Chet Walker 67, Kiki Vandeweghe 87
Bigs - Karl Malone 97, Ben Wallace 04, Spencer Haywood 73, George Mikan 50

Was really happy to get both Mikan and Cooper in the last 2 rounds.  I think they both fill a need for the bench.  My defensive lineup is starting to come together as well, adding the prototypical 3 and D player in Cooper, who when paired with Walker form an imposing wing defensive lineup.

An excellent team if it wasn't for the issue that we are playing 2020 rules. Your entire front court plays down low and your team is extremely weak defensively on the perimeter except for Cooper. Not nearly enough three point shooting.

Walker is a pretty elite defender.  And I think my shooting is fine.  Tiny would be a decent to good shooter in modern ball, Cooper was an excellent shooter, Peja and Kiki are two of the best SF shooters available, and Malone would have certainly had 3 point range as he was money from 16' to the 3 point line (in 97 he shot 53.6% from that range and took 26.2% of his shots from that distance).

[Somebody]

Houston Rockets rotation after 10 rounds:

PG: Terry Porter, Gus Williams
SG: Jimmy Butler, Hal Greer
SF: Bob Dandridge, Cliff Hagan
PF: Draymond Green, Larry Kenon
C: Rudy Gobert, Domantas Sabonis

Open to any kind of trade that benefits both sides btw

I'm kinda scratching my head on this team. Yes, it's defense first, especially up front and on the starting unit, and you'll do well to slow down some of the best offensive teams, but I am having a hard time envisioning a smooth functioning ability to score.

I love Greer as your Sixth Man but struggling to see how the rest of the bench compliments the team.

Gus Williams provides a different option at PG (I intend to alternate my starting PG based on matchups): he was the offensive centrepiece of some very strong Seattle teams so I'll start him if we're up against a team that has a big guard at PG or need more offensive firepower in our starting lineup to crack open tough defences. Greer is pretty much our seventh man, our sixth man is Hagan (amazing player, he was St. Louis' #2 but played like a #1 in their deep playoff runs in the late 50s) with his massive scoring, nifty passing and tough defence. Kenon is an athletic two-way player who can shoot, defend and pass in the forward spots while Sabonis is a bruising forward-centre who can play both PF and C if I ever need someone who can bang in the post for high-efficiency scoring/facilitate from the high post when Draymond is on the bench while being mobile enough to defend the perimeter and strong enough to man the middle. It's just a bench that provides something different from my starting lineup so I can mix it up depending on the matchup without losing the identity of the starting lineup: tough defence and a passing/off-ball movement heavy offence.

Also don't see my team struggling to score that much. It doesn't have that super elite guy leading the line, but what it has is at least 3 strong offensive players on the floor whose games fit with each other very well (Porter, Butler, Dandridge, Gus, Greer and Hagan can all play on or off the ball) and have led or co-captained some strong or even title-winning offences during their time. Throw in my bench bigs in Kenon and Sabonis who're both good offensive players (again both have thrived alongside on-ball engines like Gervin and Oladipo, so they will fit very nicely into our offence) and I don't see how my team can't be competitive when my defence is going to slow down most teams. It's not going to set the world on fire, but I'm pretty confident that it'll be consistent enough on the offensive end with multiple creators who have a title pedigree or a track record of being clutch as hell as the main guy on their teams.

[nickagneta]

Through 9 Rounds here are the Toronto Raptors

Guards - Tiny Archibald 73, Michael Cooper 87
Wings - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Chet Walker 67, Kiki Vandeweghe 87
Bigs - Karl Malone 97, Ben Wallace 04, Spencer Haywood 73, George Mikan 50

Was really happy to get both Mikan and Cooper in the last 2 rounds.  I think they both fill a need for the bench.  My defensive lineup is starting to come together as well, adding the prototypical 3 and D player in Cooper, who when paired with Walker form an imposing wing defensive lineup.

An excellent team if it wasn't for the issue that we are playing 2020 rules. Your entire front court plays down low and your team is extremely weak defensively on the perimeter except for Cooper. Not nearly enough three point shooting.

Walker is a pretty elite defender.  And I think my shooting is fine.  Tiny would be a decent to good shooter in modern ball, Cooper was an excellent shooter, Peja and Kiki are two of the best SF shooters available, and Malone would have certainly had 3 point range as he was money from 16' to the 3 point line (in 97 he shot 53.6% from that range and took 26.2% of his shots from that distance).

The way your post showed up, Chet got lost on me. Didn't even consider him. Yeah, Chet could D up. That whole Bulls team could.

[Roy H.]

Chet Walker wasn’t an “elite” defender.  Perhaps above-average, but not elite.  Heck, he got traded because his coach thought the team could use an upgrade in defense / rebounding. 

[nickagneta]

Chet Walker wasn’t an “elite” defender.  Perhaps above-average, but not elite.  Heck, he got traded because his coach thought the team could use an upgrade in defense / rebounding.

Chet was a good defender. In Chicago with Sloan and a few others, where they were all very good to elite defenders, I think maybe they made each other look better than they were. Chet was a good defender. He isn't in Cooper's class. Now Cooper...he was elite. 

[Roy H.]

Chet Walker wasn’t an “elite” defender.  Perhaps above-average, but not elite.  Heck, he got traded because his coach thought the team could use an upgrade in defense / rebounding.

Chet was a good defender. In Chicago with Sloan and a few others, where they were all very good to elite defenders, I think maybe they made each other look better than they were. Chet was a good defender. He isn't in Cooper's class. Now Cooper...he was elite.

I’m going to stick with above average rather than very good. You’re right, though:  those Bulls had several elite defenders, including Sloan, ____ ___ ____ and ___ ____.

And yes, Cooper was elite.  I’d love to see some of the modern defensive tracking stats applied to him, though.  He never struck me as a “shut the other guy down completely” defender (if there’s such a thing) but rather as a “make the opposing player work every single possession” guy.

[Moranis]

Chet Walker wasn’t an “elite” defender.  Perhaps above-average, but not elite.  Heck, he got traded because his coach thought the team could use an upgrade in defense / rebounding.

And how did that work out for both the Sixers and Bulls?  I mean Sixers got worse defensively and dropped 13 wins, Bulls improved 6 wins that first season and were not only .500, but 50 win teams the next several seasons.  And I get it wasn't all because of Walker's defense, but he was a very good defender.  Tenacious.  Made you work and it showed on the teams he played on.  One of the few players in NBA history to play in the playoffs every single season of his career and he never missed a playoff game.  Durable.  Tough.  Just a solid all around player on both ends of the floor. 

[Moranis]

Raptors through 11

Will do it positionally since the combining caused some confusion.

PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87
SF - Predrag Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50

Now have a full 5 defensive lineup in Buse, Cooper, Walker, Malone, and Wallace to play situational ball.  Have excellent shooters like Cooper, Peja, and Kiki and guys like Buse and Malone that showed enough to believe they'd be great long range shooters today, when you need the shot.  Lots of athletic and situational versatility down low with West and Haywood and a guy that was the best player in the world for 6 seasons in Mikan on the bench. 

[Somebody]

Chet Walker wasn’t an “elite” defender.  Perhaps above-average, but not elite.  Heck, he got traded because his coach thought the team could use an upgrade in defense / rebounding.

Chet was a good defender. In Chicago with Sloan and a few others, where they were all very good to elite defenders, I think maybe they made each other look better than they were. Chet was a good defender. He isn't in Cooper's class. Now Cooper...he was elite.

I’m going to stick with above average rather than very good. You’re right, though:  those Bulls had several elite defenders, including Sloan, ____ ___ ____ and ___ ____.

And yes, Cooper was elite.  I’d love to see some of the modern defensive tracking stats applied to him, though.  He never struck me as a “shut the other guy down completely” defender (if there’s such a thing) but rather as a “make the opposing player work every single possession” guy.

Cooper looks good in +/- metrics that aim to somewhat approximate modern defensive tracking stats. He's roughly in the Marcus Smart range in terms of those +/- numbers (top 40ish player with pretty much his defence, which is elite for a guard).

[Somebody]

Alright here is the Houston Rockets rotation after 12 rounds:

PG: Terry Porter, Gus Williams, Hal Greer
SG: Jimmy Butler, Hal Greer, Richard Jefferson
SF: Bob Dandridge, Cliff Hagan, Richard Jefferson
PF: Draymond Green, Domantas Sabonis/Larry Kenon
C: Rudy Gobert, Domantas Sabonis, Neil Johnston

Same philosophy with the team: tough defence and a well-balanced offence with plenty of shooting, passing and off-ball movement with the bench giving me different options depending on the matchup (eg. the Porter/Gus/Greer guard trio).