2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?

[Moranis]

Houston Rockets roster after 13 rounds:

PG: Terry Porter, Gus Williams
SG: Jimmy Butler, Richie Guerin, Hal Greer
SF: Bob Dandridge, Cliff Hagan, Richard Jefferson
PF: Draymond Green, Larry Kenon
C: Rudy Gobert, Domantas Sabonis, Neil Johnston

Richie Guerin was a great get for you. Dude could score. Is a great addition to your 2nd unit.

Yeah I missed out on him while I was scouting before the draft and I couldn't believe how modern his game looked: he was doing hesitations and advanced guard moves that wouldn't look out of place today. He was also a spectacular passer (his passing really stood out to me, he was slinging high leverage passes like one of the passing greats out there) besides pressuring defences with his scoring.

Better than Hal Greer?  I noticed you bumped Greer down in your depth chart.

I personally think Greer was the better player.  Guerin always struck me like a stat stuffer on a bad team (those Knicks teams were terrible).  Once Guerin went to St. Louis and was moved way down the depth chart, he took a huge fall statistically.  Greer was a great player and I just don't think you could say the same about Guerin.  I mean Greer was the 2nd best player on one of the 5 greatest seasons in league history.  And even after Wilt left, Greer at 32 was the anchor of a 55 win Sixers team (that was still a playoff team for several years thereafter as Greer aged)

Those teams just weren't that great imo. Obviously you'd expect a transcendent player to drag terrible teams to mediocrity, but neither Guerin or Greer were on that level. What Guerin did was be a key cog of some elite Knick offences in '58 and '59 with talented teammates around him when he was younger and lead a strong-ish offence when he was the offensive engine of a decent supporting cast in '60. His inability to carry poor supporting casts in the next few years definitely puts him out of the conversation for being a great floor raiser, but the totality of his work in those few years plus his metrics (box and non-box metrics like him quite a bit so I doubt his stats were empty) and game from the eye test have me liking him a lot.

Greer obviously did massive damage as a 2nd/3rd option on those Wilt-led 76er teams and had impressive results co-captaining the offence with Cunningham after that, but I'm not that impressed with him from the film - his game was more geared towards being an on/off ball hybrid guard (which is great, don't get me wrong) when I want a bit more firepower in my second unit to make up for its lack of truly elite defence. Probably will alternate them based on the matchup tbh, there will be a lot of staggering going on in my backcourt due to how even the talent is spread.

Except the Knicks didn't get worse and the Hawks didn't get better after the Guerin trade.  He didn't impact winning at all.  He was an empty stat stuffer that when he went to a good team suffered tremendously in his statistical value and didn't affect the actual on court production of the team.  In his prime in NY, after Guerin became the #1 option, the team was winning in the low 20's for multiple seasons.  And I know you love SRS, the 63 Knicks had a -6.2 SRS, the next year without Guerin they were -5.91.  The 63 Hawks were 1.38 and the 64 Hawks were 1.39

Hal Greer was a significantly better player.  It isn't close.  He affected positively the Sixers on both ends of the court.  And he did it before Wilt, as he was the #1 player on several of the Nationals/Sixers teams before Wilt where the Nationals/Sixers were winning solid amounts and making the playoffs with basically just Greer, a very old Schayes, a very young Walker, and a bunch of crap. 

[Moranis]

Houston Rockets roster after 13 rounds:

PG: Terry Porter, Gus Williams
SG: Jimmy Butler, Richie Guerin, Hal Greer
SF: Bob Dandridge, Cliff Hagan, Richard Jefferson
PF: Draymond Green, Larry Kenon
C: Rudy Gobert, Domantas Sabonis, Neil Johnston

Richie Guerin was a great get for you. Dude could score. Is a great addition to your 2nd unit.

Yeah I missed out on him while I was scouting before the draft and I couldn't believe how modern his game looked: he was doing hesitations and advanced guard moves that wouldn't look out of place today. He was also a spectacular passer (his passing really stood out to me, he was slinging high leverage passes like one of the passing greats out there) besides pressuring defences with his scoring.

Better than Hal Greer?  I noticed you bumped Greer down in your depth chart.

Hal Greer is probably the best SG on that roster. Yes, better than Jimmy Butler.

Strongly disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion lol. If Butler was a Celtic and pulled off a 2020 Heat with us you'd probably be anointing his 2020 campaign as the best non-Bird wing season in Celtic history

Butler and Greer are very similar players from an impact standpoint.  They are different players, but similar value.  You are significantly underrating your own player in Greer.  Greer was a monster.  He was smaller, but still a dang good player. 

[gouki88]

Houston Rockets

PG: '91-'92 Terry Porter / '79-'80 Gus Williams / '00-'01 Steve Francis
SG: '19-'20 Jimmy Butler / '59-'60 Richie Guerin / '67-'68 Hal Greer
SF: '78-'79 Bob Dandridge / '57-'58 Cliff Hagan / '07-'08 Richard Jefferson
PF: '15-'16 Draymond Green / '78-'79 Larry Kenon / '79-'80 Lonnie Shelton
C: 18-'19 Rudy Gobert / '19-'20 Domantas Sabonis / '54-'55 Neil Johnston

Backcourt will be rotated frequently based on the matchup: Porter and Gus will share starting point duties (Porter will start against teams with smaller PGs) while Guerin and Greer will alternate the backup SG spot (I like Greer against drop/zone defences with his strong pullup shooting while I prefer Guerin against more mobile, switchy defences that require dribble penetration and passing to break down). Will have Sabonis playing backup PF if opposing teams go big and Kenon struggles to defend them.

Steve Francis is ineligible, as he was the 2nd overall pick in 99. Need to redo that pick

[gouki88]

I think I’ve finally settled on a rotation... maybe. Maybe not

PG: Mo Cheeks (82-83) / Isaiah Thomas (16-17) / Rod Strickland (94-95)
SG: Charlie Scott (72-73) / Manu Ginobili (07-08) / Randy Smith (75-76)
SF: Kobe Bryant (02-03) / Paul Pressey (85-86) / Ron Artest (03-04)
PF: Andrei Kirilenko (03-04) / Brad Miller (03-04) / David Lee (12-13)
C: Artis Gilmore (77-78) / Dan Issel (77-78) / Wayne Embry (61-62)

Seasons, if not obvious, are the bracketed numbers.

Scott is not quite as elite on offence as IT was, but he’s 6’5”, was a solid defender and will provide a similar,
obviously lesser offensive presence on the wing to Kobe. The scoring, passing and defence strikes a really good balance with those two next to Cheeks in my opinion.

4 elite level defenders who were all fantastic athletes in my starting lineup as well as the special offensive skills possessed by Kobe, Scott & Gilmore creates a starting group that I’d back against any. It also leaves my bench with a heap of combinations it can work with in my starting group.

Speaking of my bench. Manu had one of the GOAT 6th man years in that season, IT was an MVP candidate, and Issel was a easy 20PPG guy. Having a prototypical modern big shooter (48% on shots between 16ft & the arc) to space for Issel in Miller will be a really hard duo to stop, especially given how much space Miller would create in the modern game with his shooting and passing. Throw in an elite defending point forward and I really rate the versatility of that group.

My 3rd string group features a DPOY, a number of All-Stars with different but elite skill sets, and a ball-handling wizard at the PG spot. Not going to get much time, besides Artest, but I trust any of these guys to fill in for certain injuries and certain matchups as necessary.

I’m not concerned about Kobe at SF in this competition at all. At 6’6” and 210lbs he’s got the length, height, athleticism and strength to play on almost all the SFs in this competition.

I’ll do a more detailed run-through of the seasons chosen, their respective statistics and how my team will play at a later state.

[Somebody]

Houston Rockets

PG: '91-'92 Terry Porter / '79-'80 Gus Williams / '73-'74 Calvin Murphy
SG: '19-'20 Jimmy Butler / '59-'60 Richie Guerin / '67-'68 Hal Greer
SF: '78-'79 Bob Dandridge / '57-'58 Cliff Hagan / '07-'08 Richard Jefferson
PF: '15-'16 Draymond Green / '78-'79 Larry Kenon / '79-'80 Lonnie Shelton
C: 18-'19 Rudy Gobert / '19-'20 Domantas Sabonis / '54-'55 Neil Johnston

Backcourt will be rotated frequently based on the matchup: Porter and Gus will share starting point duties (Porter will start against teams with smaller PGs) while Guerin and Greer will alternate the backup SG spot (I like Greer against drop/zone defences with his strong pullup shooting while I prefer Guerin against more mobile, switchy defences that require dribble penetration and passing to break down). Will have Sabonis playing backup PF if opposing teams go big and Kenon struggles to defend them.

Steve Francis is ineligible, as he was the 2nd overall pick in 99. Need to redo that pick

Oof I mixed him up with his backcourt mate. I'll select Calvin Murphy.

[Jvalin]

Here's the 15-man roster of the Milwaukee Bucks (barring trades).

1. Nikola Jokic 2018/19
2. Kawhi Leonard 2015/16
3. Dennis Johnson 1984/85
4. Khris Middleton 2019/20
5. Pascal Siakam 2018/19
6. Michael Finley 1999/00
7. Nikola Vucevic 2018/19
8. Toni Kukoc 1995/96
9. Donovan Mitchell 2019/20
10. Derek Harper 1989/90
11. Cedric Maxwell 1979/80
12. Goran Dragic 2013/14
13. Tobias Harris 2018/19
14. Brent Barry 2001/02
15. Boban Marjanovic 2015/16

I'm going with pre-tendonitis, DPOY Kawhi. I really think he was even better back then! Plus, his USG% was lower at the time, which always helps given that he'll be playing next to 4 all-stars!

Selected the 2018/19 season for Jokic. He was simply amazing throughout that season. Imo, even better than he was in 2019/20. He also shot 39.3% from 3 on 4 attempts per game during the playoffs. Elite stuff at the C position.

I can't decide which version of DJ to choose. What do you guys think?

• Seattle
• Phoenix
• Boston

For me, Seattle, 1978-79. All NBA defense 1st team and finals mvp. 5th in MVP voting

Thanks for the feedback, but I opted for the 1984/85 season. Already got plenty of firepower in my starting lineup. Need him in a pass-first role, rather than a score-first role. DJ was the perfect sidekick for Larry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQYs5rsSud0

[Somebody]

Houston Rockets roster after 13 rounds:

PG: Terry Porter, Gus Williams
SG: Jimmy Butler, Richie Guerin, Hal Greer
SF: Bob Dandridge, Cliff Hagan, Richard Jefferson
PF: Draymond Green, Larry Kenon
C: Rudy Gobert, Domantas Sabonis, Neil Johnston

Richie Guerin was a great get for you. Dude could score. Is a great addition to your 2nd unit.

Yeah I missed out on him while I was scouting before the draft and I couldn't believe how modern his game looked: he was doing hesitations and advanced guard moves that wouldn't look out of place today. He was also a spectacular passer (his passing really stood out to me, he was slinging high leverage passes like one of the passing greats out there) besides pressuring defences with his scoring.

Better than Hal Greer?  I noticed you bumped Greer down in your depth chart.

I personally think Greer was the better player.  Guerin always struck me like a stat stuffer on a bad team (those Knicks teams were terrible).  Once Guerin went to St. Louis and was moved way down the depth chart, he took a huge fall statistically.  Greer was a great player and I just don't think you could say the same about Guerin.  I mean Greer was the 2nd best player on one of the 5 greatest seasons in league history.  And even after Wilt left, Greer at 32 was the anchor of a 55 win Sixers team (that was still a playoff team for several years thereafter as Greer aged)

Those teams just weren't that great imo. Obviously you'd expect a transcendent player to drag terrible teams to mediocrity, but neither Guerin or Greer were on that level. What Guerin did was be a key cog of some elite Knick offences in '58 and '59 with talented teammates around him when he was younger and lead a strong-ish offence when he was the offensive engine of a decent supporting cast in '60. His inability to carry poor supporting casts in the next few years definitely puts him out of the conversation for being a great floor raiser, but the totality of his work in those few years plus his metrics (box and non-box metrics like him quite a bit so I doubt his stats were empty) and game from the eye test have me liking him a lot.

Greer obviously did massive damage as a 2nd/3rd option on those Wilt-led 76er teams and had impressive results co-captaining the offence with Cunningham after that, but I'm not that impressed with him from the film - his game was more geared towards being an on/off ball hybrid guard (which is great, don't get me wrong) when I want a bit more firepower in my second unit to make up for its lack of truly elite defence. Probably will alternate them based on the matchup tbh, there will be a lot of staggering going on in my backcourt due to how even the talent is spread.

Except the Knicks didn't get worse and the Hawks didn't get better after the Guerin trade.  He didn't impact winning at all. He was an empty stat stuffer that when he went to a good team suffered tremendously in his statistical value and didn't affect the actual on court production of the team. In his prime in NY, after Guerin became the #1 option, the team was winning in the low 20's for multiple seasons. And I know you love SRS, the 63 Knicks had a -6.2 SRS, the next year without Guerin they were -5.91.  The 63 Hawks were 1.38 and the 64 Hawks were 1.39

Hal Greer was a significantly better player.  It isn't close.  He affected positively the Sixers on both ends of the court.  And he did it before Wilt, as he was the #1 player on several of the Nationals/Sixers teams before Wilt where the Nationals/Sixers were winning solid amounts and making the playoffs with basically just Greer, a very old Schayes, a very young Walker, and a bunch of crap.

And you conveniently left out how the Knicks replaced Guerin with four quality rotation players in Johnny Egan, Bob Boozer, Art Heyman and Len Chappell to improve ever so slightly . The Hawks didn't improve in '64 because Guerin entered his post-prime years - it wasn't uncommon for players to fall off a cliff back then once they entered their 30s (his numbers with the Knicks that season, while on a minuscule sample size, absolutely crumbled and it definitely wasn't a change in playstyle: the Knicks traded him away for peanuts, which was very unusual when you consider that he was a franchise legend at the time). He was a very good player who suffered from having crap teammates for most of his best years and exited his prime when he finally had the opportunity to play on a strong team. Fortunately we do have some data in his pre/early prime years where he played with some semblance of a competitive team, and the results look good - the Knicks finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th from in team ORTG '58 to '61 with Guerin being at least the co-captain of the offence from '59 onwards. You would likely respond to this with mediocre Knick SRS ratings in those years due to your love of using stats without context to feed your narratives, but it was the defence that let the Knicks down: they were near the bottom of the league in most of those years due to them lacking a defensive anchor in the pivot.

Differentiating between those two at their peaks isn't that obvious despite your love of using narratives as if they're a definitive measure of a player's quality. Greer hardly had crap around him before Wilt - there was a certain Dolph Schayes who was the pillar of the team in his early years, and as he aged the Sixers had a platoon of All-Stars in Red Kerr, Larry Costello, Lee Shaffer, etc to keep the team afloat while Guerin only really had Willie Naulls and Johnny Green to help him out after Sears, Braun and co. aged (unless you really rate the likes of near-retirement Dick Garmaker, Tom Gola and Gene Shue), and both were finishers who were dependent on teammates to create for them - in comparison, Kerr was a two-way centre renowned for his passing, Costello was a guard who could create for himself and his teammates while only Shaffer was a finisher in the vein of Naulls and Green. Greer's results certainly were impressive, but this wasn't a LeBronian floor-raising effort, and neither was Guerin doing an Adrian Dantley in the early 60s.

[Somebody]

Here's the 15-man roster of the Milwaukee Bucks (barring trades).

1. Nikola Jokic 2018/19
2. Kawhi Leonard 2015/16
3. Dennis Johnson 1984/85
4. Khris Middleton 2019/20
5. Pascal Siakam 2018/19
6. Michael Finley 1999/00
7. Nikola Vucevic 2018/19
8. Toni Kukoc 1995/96
9. Donovan Mitchell 2019/20
10. Derek Harper 1989/90
11. Cedric Maxwell 1979/80
12. Goran Dragic 2013/14
13. Tobias Harris 2018/19
14. Brent Barry 2001/02
15. Boban Marjanovic 2015/16

I'm going with pre-tendonitis, DPOY Kawhi. I really think he was even better back then! Plus, his USG% was lower at the time, which always helps given that he'll be playing next to 4 all-stars!

Selected the 2018/19 season for Jokic. He was simply amazing throughout that season. Imo, even better than he was in 2019/20. He also shot 39.3% from 3 on 4 attempts per game during the playoffs. Elite stuff at the C position.

I can't decide which version of DJ to choose. What do you guys think?

• Seattle
• Phoenix
• Boston

For me, Seattle, 1978-79. All NBA defense 1st team and finals mvp. 5th in MVP voting

Thanks for the feedback, but I opted for the 1984/85 season. Already got plenty of firepower in my starting lineup. Need him in a pass-first role, rather than a score-first role. DJ was the perfect sidekick for Larry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQYs5rsSud0

It's still the favourite to win this imo regardless of which DJ year you choose

[nickagneta]

Here's the 15-man roster of the Milwaukee Bucks (barring trades).

1. Nikola Jokic 2018/19
2. Kawhi Leonard 2015/16
3. Dennis Johnson 1984/85
4. Khris Middleton 2019/20
5. Pascal Siakam 2018/19
6. Michael Finley 1999/00
7. Nikola Vucevic 2018/19
8. Toni Kukoc 1995/96
9. Donovan Mitchell 2019/20
10. Derek Harper 1989/90
11. Cedric Maxwell 1979/80
12. Goran Dragic 2013/14
13. Tobias Harris 2018/19
14. Brent Barry 2001/02
15. Boban Marjanovic 2015/16

I'm going with pre-tendonitis, DPOY Kawhi. I really think he was even better back then! Plus, his USG% was lower at the time, which always helps given that he'll be playing next to 4 all-stars!

Selected the 2018/19 season for Jokic. He was simply amazing throughout that season. Imo, even better than he was in 2019/20. He also shot 39.3% from 3 on 4 attempts per game during the playoffs. Elite stuff at the C position.

I can't decide which version of DJ to choose. What do you guys think?

• Seattle
• Phoenix
• Boston

For me, Seattle, 1978-79. All NBA defense 1st team and finals mvp. 5th in MVP voting

Thanks for the feedback, but I opted for the 1984/85 season. Already got plenty of firepower in my starting lineup. Need him in a pass-first role, rather than a score-first role. DJ was the perfect sidekick for Larry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQYs5rsSud0

It's still the favourite to win this imo regardless of which DJ year you choose

Suns say differently.

[RPGenerate]

Here's the 15-man roster of the Milwaukee Bucks (barring trades).

1. Nikola Jokic 2018/19
2. Kawhi Leonard 2015/16
3. Dennis Johnson 1984/85
4. Khris Middleton 2019/20
5. Pascal Siakam 2018/19
6. Michael Finley 1999/00
7. Nikola Vucevic 2018/19
8. Toni Kukoc 1995/96
9. Donovan Mitchell 2019/20
10. Derek Harper 1989/90
11. Cedric Maxwell 1979/80
12. Goran Dragic 2013/14
13. Tobias Harris 2018/19
14. Brent Barry 2001/02
15. Boban Marjanovic 2015/16

I'm going with pre-tendonitis, DPOY Kawhi. I really think he was even better back then! Plus, his USG% was lower at the time, which always helps given that he'll be playing next to 4 all-stars!

Selected the 2018/19 season for Jokic. He was simply amazing throughout that season. Imo, even better than he was in 2019/20. He also shot 39.3% from 3 on 4 attempts per game during the playoffs. Elite stuff at the C position.

I can't decide which version of DJ to choose. What do you guys think?

• Seattle
• Phoenix
• Boston

For me, Seattle, 1978-79. All NBA defense 1st team and finals mvp. 5th in MVP voting

Thanks for the feedback, but I opted for the 1984/85 season. Already got plenty of firepower in my starting lineup. Need him in a pass-first role, rather than a score-first role. DJ was the perfect sidekick for Larry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQYs5rsSud0

It's still the favourite to win this imo regardless of which DJ year you choose

Suns say differently.

The Sacramento Kings also have a different opinion on the matter 

[nickagneta]

Just finished this. Seasons are selected and counting stats, shooting stats and accolades received are all listed. Some of my more used 5 man units are listed as well, in descending order of use.

Would love your thoughts.

And, since I don't think rosters have to be set until Monday at earliest, I am still willing to talk trade. PM me with any interest.


PHOENIX  SUNS
Tony Parker/Norm Van Lier/Steve Kerr

Clyde Drexler/Devin Booker/J.J. Redick

Danny Granger/Hedo Turkoglu/Tayshaun Prince

Giannis Antetokounmpo/Anthony Mason/Bob Love

DeAndre Jordan/Carlos Boozer/Troy Murphy

Player. Year Used.  PTS/AST/REB   FG%/3PT%/FT%/TS%  ACCOLADES

STARTERS
Tony Parker.  2006-07.  18.6/5.5/3.2.  52/39.5/78.3/57.2.  All-Star.  Finals MVP.

Clyde Drexler.  1991-02.  25/6.7/6.6.  47/33.7/79.4/56.   All-Star.  All-NBA 1st Team. 2nd in MVP balloting.

Danny Granger.  2008-09.   25.8/2.7/5.1.   44.7/40.4/87.8/58.4.   All-Star.  MIP

Giannis Antetokounmpo.   2019-20.  29.5/5.6/13.6.   55.3/30.4/63.3/61.3.   All-Star.   All-NBA 1st Team.   All-Defense 1st Team.   MVP.   DPOY.

DeAndre Jordan.   2015-16.   12.7/1.2/13.8.   70.3/0/43/62.8.   All-NBA 1st Team.   All-Defense 1st Team

ROTATION BENCH
Devin Booker.   2019-20.   26.6/6.5/4.2.   48.9/35.4/91.8/61.8.  All-Star

Hedo Turkoglu.   2007-08.   19.5/5/5.7.    45.6/40/82.9/57.8.   MIP

Anthony Mason.   1996-97.   16.2/5.7/11.4.   52.5/33.3/74.5/58.5.  All-NBA 3rd Team.   All-Defense 2nd Team

J.J. Redick.   2015-16.   16.3/1.4/1.9.   48/47.5/88.8/63.2

Carlos Boozer.   2007-08.   21.1/2.9/10.4.   54.7/0/73.8/58.1.   All-Star.  All-NBA 3rd Team

Norm Van Lier.   1973-74.   14.3/6.9/4.7.   40.6/--/77.8/47.   All-Star.   All-NBA 2nd Team.   All-Defense 1st Team

DEEP BENCH
Tayshaun Prince.   2006-07.  14.3/2.8/5.7.   46/38.6/76.8/53.4.   All-Defense 2nd Team 

Bob Love.   1971-72.   25.2/2.3/8.5.   44.2/--/78.4/49.   All-Star.   All-NBA 2nd Team.   All-Defense 2nd Team

Steve Kerr.   1995-96.   8.4/2.3/1.3.   50.6/51.5/92.9/66.3

Troy Murphy.   2008-09.   14.3/2.4/11.8.   47.5/45/82.6/61.4

MOST USED 5 MAN SETS

Parker/Drexler/Granger/Giannis/Jordan
Redick/Booker/Drexler/Turkoglu/Giannis
Parker/Drexler/Granger/Mason/Boozer
Reddick/Booker/Turkoglu/Giannis/Boozer
Booker/Drexler/Granger/Giannis/Jordan
Van Lier/Booker/Drexler/Giannis/ Boozer

[gouki88]

I’ve gone and updated the OP with all the rosters if anyone is interested!

[Roy H.]

I think my three favorite teams are (in no order) the Kings, the Grizzlies and the Bucks.  I’m a sucker for a dominant center, regardless of era.

[Darth_Yoda]

I think my three favorite teams are (in no order) the Suns, the Grizzlies and the Bucks.  I’m a sucker for a dominant center, regardless of era.

Deandre jordn is a dominate center?

[Roy H.]

I think my three favorite teams are (in no order) the Suns Kings, the Grizzlies and the Bucks.  I’m a sucker for a dominant center, regardless of era.

Deandre jordn is a dominate center?

Nope.  I meant the Kings.