Author Topic: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?  (Read 106105 times)

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Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #240 on: December 13, 2020, 11:44:57 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Then what's the point in selecting specific seasons and discussing shooting% from these seasons? I'm all for not selecting specific seasons btw.

I don’t think anybody is arguing that those shooting percentages are set in stone.  They’re going to change based upon how roles shift, etc., just like any other stat in this game.

But it’s silly to think that guys from prior eras won’t adjust their games.  You don’t think Larry would have taken more threes, or others wouldn’t have extended their range?  You don’t think the best players in NBA history would play efficient basketball?
Malone is an all-time great. Imo, he'd be a great player in any era. That's not the case for every player though. For instance, Dwight Howard was super dominant in the late 00s/early 10s. If you ask me, he'd be a role player in today's game (even if he were in his prime).

In a world where Rudy Gobert is perennial All-NBA feature the idea that Dwight Howard, a better player at everything except maybe passing, is crazy to me. Offhand remarks like that are pretty out there when you actually think about it. Talent continues to trump trends in game style man
I mean in what world does a mobile defensive big man who is a menace in the paint doesn't scale well lol.
Especially a mobile defensive big who was as strong as an ox and also had a huge vertical. Dwight Howard has a place in any era, even if his mindset was all over the joint sometimes

D12 would do just fine in this era. 

I wonder about him in the 80s and 90s, though.  In those eras, would he have been a perennial all-star?

I don’t see him matching up well against any of Moses, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Shaq, Parish, Gilmore, Hakeem or Kareem. Too undersized and no post moves or jumper.
To be fair Howard is 6'9.75 without shoes - that's as tall as Bill Russell. Ewing and Hakeem were in the same range as well with them being noticeably shorter than Shaq (who was roughly 6'11-7'0 without shoes). He probably wouldn't be a massive scorer, but I think he would've been a defensive anchor and a monster finisher/offensive rebounder with a bit of a post game (he did have a decent jump hook and drop shot).
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Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #241 on: December 13, 2020, 11:46:15 PM »

Offline Somebody

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my Rockets team with Draymond and Gobert

Moses would eat Gobert, and especially Draymond, alive.  Green wouldn’t be able to defend great historical centers.

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So low individual production + low team offense + vulnerable to decreased defensive value.

That’s a good way to put it, although I wonder if any player contributing fewer than 10ppg could effectively start in this league, regardless of other contributions.
Moses wouldn't eat Gobert alive and neither would he kill Draymond in switches. Nostalgia much :laugh:
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Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #242 on: December 13, 2020, 11:51:09 PM »

Online Roy H.

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my Rockets team with Draymond and Gobert

Moses would eat Gobert, and especially Draymond, alive.  Green wouldn’t be able to defend great historical centers.

Quote
So low individual production + low team offense + vulnerable to decreased defensive value.

That’s a good way to put it, although I wonder if any player contributing fewer than 10ppg could effectively start in this league, regardless of other contributions.
Moses wouldn't eat Gobert alive and neither would he kill Draymond in switches. Nostalgia much :laugh:

It’s not nostalgia, it’s accepting the fact that today’s big men simply aren’t as good as the all-time greats.  Draymond Green is 6’6”.  He’s not going to be effective defending dominant bigs in the post.

Is it nostalgia to note that in 1982, Moses scored more than the best seasons of your starting big men, combined?


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Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #243 on: December 14, 2020, 12:44:49 AM »

Offline Somebody

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my Rockets team with Draymond and Gobert

Moses would eat Gobert, and especially Draymond, alive.  Green wouldn’t be able to defend great historical centers.

Quote
So low individual production + low team offense + vulnerable to decreased defensive value.

That’s a good way to put it, although I wonder if any player contributing fewer than 10ppg could effectively start in this league, regardless of other contributions.
Moses wouldn't eat Gobert alive and neither would he kill Draymond in switches. Nostalgia much :laugh:
It’s not nostalgia, it’s accepting the fact that today’s big men simply aren’t as good as the all-time greats.  Draymond Green is 6’6”.  He’s not going to be effective defending dominant bigs in the post.

Is it nostalgia to note that in 1982, Moses scored more than the best seasons of your starting big men, combined?
The big men of the early 80s were way better than the bigs of today? Embiid and Jokic would disagree :laugh:. Draymond Green was effective in defending those bigs on switches (you specifically mentioned switches), I see no reason why he can't do a job on Moses when Gobert will handle Moses most of the time.

It is very much nostalgia when you make sweeping statements on how a big man from the past would dominate the best defensive bigs of today like they are rag dolls.
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Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #244 on: December 14, 2020, 12:59:39 AM »

Online Roy H.

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my Rockets team with Draymond and Gobert

Moses would eat Gobert, and especially Draymond, alive.  Green wouldn’t be able to defend great historical centers.

Quote
So low individual production + low team offense + vulnerable to decreased defensive value.

That’s a good way to put it, although I wonder if any player contributing fewer than 10ppg could effectively start in this league, regardless of other contributions.
Moses wouldn't eat Gobert alive and neither would he kill Draymond in switches. Nostalgia much :laugh:
It’s not nostalgia, it’s accepting the fact that today’s big men simply aren’t as good as the all-time greats.  Draymond Green is 6’6”.  He’s not going to be effective defending dominant bigs in the post.

Is it nostalgia to note that in 1982, Moses scored more than the best seasons of your starting big men, combined?
The big men of the early 80s were way better than the bigs of today? Embiid and Jokic would disagree :laugh:. Draymond Green was effective in defending those bigs on switches (you specifically mentioned switches), I see no reason why he can't do a job on Moses when Gobert will handle Moses most of the time.

It is very much nostalgia when you make sweeping statements on how a big man from the past would dominate the best defensive bigs of today like they are rag dolls.

Yes, I’d take any of the bigs I mentioned above over Embiid, and almost all of them over Jokic (who is a terrible defender, but a unique offensive player)..


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Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #245 on: December 14, 2020, 03:38:34 AM »

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my Rockets team with Draymond and Gobert

Moses would eat Gobert, and especially Draymond, alive.  Green wouldn’t be able to defend great historical centers.

Quote
So low individual production + low team offense + vulnerable to decreased defensive value.

That’s a good way to put it, although I wonder if any player contributing fewer than 10ppg could effectively start in this league, regardless of other contributions.
Moses wouldn't eat Gobert alive and neither would he kill Draymond in switches. Nostalgia much :laugh:
It’s not nostalgia, it’s accepting the fact that today’s big men simply aren’t as good as the all-time greats.  Draymond Green is 6’6”.  He’s not going to be effective defending dominant bigs in the post.

Is it nostalgia to note that in 1982, Moses scored more than the best seasons of your starting big men, combined?
The big men of the early 80s were way better than the bigs of today? Embiid and Jokic would disagree :laugh:. Draymond Green was effective in defending those bigs on switches (you specifically mentioned switches), I see no reason why he can't do a job on Moses when Gobert will handle Moses most of the time.

It is very much nostalgia when you make sweeping statements on how a big man from the past would dominate the best defensive bigs of today like they are rag dolls.
Yes, I’d take any of the bigs I mentioned above over Embiid, and almost all of them over Jokic (who is a terrible defender, but a unique offensive player).
And that's what I call nostalgia :laugh:. Kareem was definitely a two-way anchor who transcended all of these centres in the early 80s, but guys like Moses and Gilmore (FWIW I think Moses is a level above 80s Gilmore if not two) were certainly not significantly better than Embiid and Jokic (Jokic is hardly terrible defensively, he's more of a neutral/slight positive on that end), Moses is around the same level as those two.
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Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #246 on: December 14, 2020, 06:46:17 AM »

Online Roy H.

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my Rockets team with Draymond and Gobert

Moses would eat Gobert, and especially Draymond, alive.  Green wouldn’t be able to defend great historical centers.

Quote
So low individual production + low team offense + vulnerable to decreased defensive value.

That’s a good way to put it, although I wonder if any player contributing fewer than 10ppg could effectively start in this league, regardless of other contributions.
Moses wouldn't eat Gobert alive and neither would he kill Draymond in switches. Nostalgia much :laugh:
It’s not nostalgia, it’s accepting the fact that today’s big men simply aren’t as good as the all-time greats.  Draymond Green is 6’6”.  He’s not going to be effective defending dominant bigs in the post.

Is it nostalgia to note that in 1982, Moses scored more than the best seasons of your starting big men, combined?
The big men of the early 80s were way better than the bigs of today? Embiid and Jokic would disagree :laugh:. Draymond Green was effective in defending those bigs on switches (you specifically mentioned switches), I see no reason why he can't do a job on Moses when Gobert will handle Moses most of the time.

It is very much nostalgia when you make sweeping statements on how a big man from the past would dominate the best defensive bigs of today like they are rag dolls.
Yes, I’d take any of the bigs I mentioned above over Embiid, and almost all of them over Jokic (who is a terrible defender, but a unique offensive player).
And that's what I call nostalgia :laugh:. Kareem was definitely a two-way anchor who transcended all of these centres in the early 80s, but guys like Moses and Gilmore (FWIW I think Moses is a level above 80s Gilmore if not two) were certainly not significantly better than Embiid and Jokic (Jokic is hardly terrible defensively, he's more of a neutral/slight positive on that end), Moses is around the same level as those two.

You never saw a single one of these guys play, correct? I’ll let Moses’ three MVP awards speak for themselves here.

Here’s some reading on Jokic’s defense:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/8/25/21400158/denver-nuggets-nikola-jokic-defense-ben-simmons

Quote
  There are no right decisions for Jokic when guarding the two-man game between Mitchell and Gobert. He’s not fast enough to extend out to the perimeter, and can’t protect the rim well enough when dropping back in the paint. Jokic may have changed his body during the hiatus, but he still has severe limitations on defense.

Quote
The numbers, per Synergy Sports, don’t even look real. Jokic is second in the playoffs among all players in possessions per game (14.8) defending a pick-and-roll screener, and no. 31 in the average number of points per possession (1.373) allowed on those plays. That’s higher than JJ Redick’s average on unguarded catch-and-shoot jumpers (1.348) this season.







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Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #247 on: December 14, 2020, 08:01:56 AM »

Offline Darth_Yoda

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I feel like there hasn't been enough debate over my team. So I want to see if I can get some going.
I believe I have the most capable free flowing offensive team with excellent situational defenders. I also would wager that I have the best 3pt shooting team. Which translates into the most current era friendly team there is.

Center position:
Capela, Laimbeer, Nurkic, Ibaka (when small balling)

My center position has alot of athleticism, strength, toughness and offensive prowess. There is more than enough defensive power to be able to slow down the big bodies (Moses and Gasol) and more than enough offensive power to make all the centers out there have to defend on the perimeter and run the floor up and down.

Power Forward:
Hawkins, Ibaka, Josh Smith

Power forward on my team is an incredibly unique player who could create, score, pass, shoot in Hawkins and a couple of excellent defensive, great shot blocking, either floor spacing or rim running players.
Ibaka can match up against the bigger PFs like Malone very well as he will not get bullied and has the speed advantage, Hawkins will excell in small ball lineups.

At Small Forward
Gervin,. McGinnis, Korver

Small forward I spot one of, if not the, best scorers the nba has ever seen. With todays spacing he would not be facing the constant double and triple teams he dealt with in the past. And the defensive 3 seconds rule would open the middle up for the patented finger roll. McGinnis is one of the most athletic do it all small forwards to ever lace them up. He could also defend like a mad man. And Korver is one of the best pure shooters in NBA history.

At Shooting Guard
Reggie Miller, Hornacek, Anderson.

Shooting guard spot sports some tremendous shooting and tireless screen runner in Reggie, an incredible complete do it all player in Jeff and a 2 way shooting scorer in Anderson. Shooting guard spot is there to space the floor on my team/

At Point Guard
Lowry, Mookie, Mark Jackson

My PG spot is completely interchangeable. Mookie and Lowry can both defend very well (Mookie slightly better) and can shoot from deep (Lowry slightly better) and pass the ball (Jackson 4th all time in assists)
These guys will defend close to 100 feet out, will make the smart passes, will protect the ball offensively, run the pick and roll with my athletic bigmen and get into the middle. When they do make the defenses collapse they are all smart and capable passers to find my sharpshooters on the outside for an open look. They are also  excellent 3pt options for kickouts from the larger shot creators on the floor (Hawkins, Gervin, McGinnis) and for kickouts from Laimbeer and Nurkic.

'21 Historical Draft
PG: Kyle Lowry / Mookie Blaylock / Mark Jackson
SG: Reggie Miller / Jeff Hornacek / Nick Anderson
SF: George Gervin / George McGinnis / Kyle Korver
PF: Connie Hawkins / Serge Ibaka / Josh Smith
C: Clint Capela / Bill Laimbeer / Jusuf Nurkic

Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #248 on: December 14, 2020, 08:15:29 AM »

Offline Darth_Yoda

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my Rockets team with Draymond and Gobert

Moses would eat Gobert, and especially Draymond, alive.  Green wouldn’t be able to defend great historical centers.

Quote
So low individual production + low team offense + vulnerable to decreased defensive value.

That’s a good way to put it, although I wonder if any player contributing fewer than 10ppg could effectively start in this league, regardless of other contributions.
Moses wouldn't eat Gobert alive and neither would he kill Draymond in switches. Nostalgia much :laugh:

It’s not nostalgia, it’s accepting the fact that today’s big men simply aren’t as good as the all-time greats.  Draymond Green is 6’6”.  He’s not going to be effective defending dominant bigs in the post.

Is it nostalgia to note that in 1982, Moses scored more than the best seasons of your starting big men, combined?

Know who can defend the dominate bigs from the past in the post and slow them down, make them work harder?

Someone who did exactly that. Winning 9 of 13 meeting in the playoffs and holding Moses to averages of 13.5ppg, 9.5rpg, 1.5apg. Granted Moses was getting older and can anyone REALLY stop Moses, no, but you can slow him.

Laimbeer was big, strong and annoying to Moses. He made moses get off his game. And if Bill is having trouble Stopping the 6foot10, 215lbs Moses, I can trot out the athletic 6foot10 240lb Capela or the rock solid 7 foot 290lb Nurkic to body Moses in the post.

Then I can still even put Ibaka out there at 7 foot 235lb.





'21 Historical Draft
PG: Kyle Lowry / Mookie Blaylock / Mark Jackson
SG: Reggie Miller / Jeff Hornacek / Nick Anderson
SF: George Gervin / George McGinnis / Kyle Korver
PF: Connie Hawkins / Serge Ibaka / Josh Smith
C: Clint Capela / Bill Laimbeer / Jusuf Nurkic

Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #249 on: December 14, 2020, 08:47:23 AM »

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I was rewatching the 1983 Finals before this draft. One thing in particular stood out about defending Moses in that series and that was that Kareem did do a good job on Moses.

Moses did a lot of his damage in the paint when Kareem was not defending him. Moses did most of his damage offensively against Rambis and Landsberger.  These players were smaller than Moses. They were 6-8/6-9 and probably 230lbs. They simply do not have the size necessary to defend Moses and Moses chewed them up and spit them out.

I thought Kareem was outplaying Moses when they were head-to-head early in the series (Moses out-rebounded KAJ but KAJ outplayed Moses offensively & defensively) but that changed by game 4 when Moses outplayed Kareem.

--------

The Lakers had injury problems in those Finals. James Worthy did not play. He was hurt. Bob McAdoo played 2 of 4 games and when he did play he was limited. So the Lakers were without 2 of their 6 guys in the series. That hurt their depth which Philly exploited. They had some guys playing in those Finals games that I never remember playing for the Lakers. That is how far down their depth chart they were.

It also put more pressure on Kareem to do more offensively for the team so Riley tried to save Kareem on defense by putting Rambis & Landsberger on Moses instead. Which wrecked their defense.

It would've been nice to have seen a healthy Lakers team play in those Finals. Those games were already close (despite LAL losing each game). That series would've been much tougher if LAL had of been healthy.

-----------------------

Two other points:

(1) I am not sure about Moses destroying Gobert. Both Parish and Kareem should be decent markers for how Gobert might fare defensively against Moses. Moses will have some joy there, sure. But you can live with that. You are making Moses work and you gain more defensively by letting him attack Gobert one-on-one than you concede defensively by double teaming him. Gobert allows you to play Moses 1-on-1 and live with the consequences.

That is good enough. Especially in a league like this where you are playing the best of the best. You are going to have multiple guys who can score well one-on-one. You just want to stop those guys from feasting (which I believe Gobert can do) or creating wide open shots for others (which again, I believe Gobert can do).

(2) Dodgier ground for Draymond Green. Draymond's defense on centers is over-rated. He plays against mostly limited to solid offensive centers. Most of these guys do not have the skills or physical talent necessary to exploit Draymond effectively. This is not the case with Moses Malone.

Draymond does concede advantages to centers in the post. It is just that most post players are not skilled enough or smart enough to recognize those opportunities. I know that drove me insane watching Aldridge attack Draymond years ago. He just couldn't understand how to attack - where the opportunities were. And then you have guys like Marc Gasol who are not physically gifted enough and have a mechanical one-on-one game. This is not Moses Malone. Neither of these guys.

Guys like Moses Malone who are undersized centers and are used to outplaying bigger longer centers by having to use an added focus on quickness and versatility of moves ... these guys, when they get a little guy on them. Man, it's like Christmas for them. They destroy smaller guys on switches. That is what they do and what Moses in particular did.

Moses Malone is one of the most versatile low post scorers in NBA History. He has loads of moves. He can beat you in so many different ways. His skill-level is under-respected.

I don't think Draymond can guard Moses for anything more than a few seconds at a time. So a switch late in the shot clock - yeah, that's fine. More regular switching would leave Draymond exposed. And any switching of those perimeter guys onto Moses would be death for that defense.

Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #250 on: December 14, 2020, 09:01:21 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Yoda, what specific mismatches do you think your team creates against other teams?


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Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #251 on: December 14, 2020, 09:06:40 AM »

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Also regarding Moses.

He has to defend on the other end of the court. Having Ibaka, giannis and other small ball centers wpuld be something he has never had to deal with before and I question how well he will handle getting fug out to the 3pt line.

2nd separate thought

Moses Malone did defend small ball centers in his era and outside shooting centers.

(1) Bob McAdoo -- he was one of the best jump-shooting centers of all time. He had an outside shot but he did his best work in the midrange area (14-17 feet). He was 6-9 230lbs. He had good quickness and mobility for a PF but played C to gain an even larger advantage over his opponents. He was not just a shooter but was able to put the ball on the floor and drive. Use that quickness to attack. He was a matchup nightmare.

(2) Dan Issel -- he was the best outside jump-shooting big man of the late 70s early 80s. He was also a small ball center. He was 6-9 and built like a tank. Issel was also able to put the ball on the floor and drive as well as post up. He had similarities to David Lee (PF/C caught between two positions, useful at both) but was tougher and meaner. Dan Issel said Moses Malone was the defender who bothered him the most because Moses was even quicker than he was and could defend him out on the perimeter.

(3) Jack Sikma = more of a traditional center but had a stretch element to his game especially as he got older. More similar to Marc Gasol or Vlade Divac type. He had outside shot, a midrange shot & a dangerous post game. Above average passer as well. Less of a threat to put the ball on the floor but he could be opportunistic.

Small ball centers and stretch centers existed back then and Moses did well against them. Especially Houston Rockets era Moses Malone who had superior quickness. As he put on weight and got older (mid to late 80s) he struggled more.

I wonder about the 1983 Moses who was slower. He had some deceptive quickness when defenders or attackers got lazy and underestimated him but you didn't see it nearly as often as just two years earlier.

And you also have the increase in quantity of PnR as well as his individual check.

Even back then I dont the small ball centers were shooting from 25 feet regularly. So it would have been easier on Moses?

Yes, you are right, it's not exactly the same. There is that extra bit of space and there is the added threat of an extra point on the three point shot vs the long two which changes how much the defense wants to deny the shot.

However, you can build an understanding of how a player (Moses) defends in space. When he is out on the floor away from the basket. When he is more exposed. You can see how he handles a quick five that will try and beat him with speed. And you can see how he can handle jump-shooters.

That difference from 20 feet to 24 feet doesn't change that much in terms of those things.

All this said, I do believe 1983 Moses Malone would struggle more with these type of defensive actions than he would have even 2 years earlier when he noticeably lighter, quicker and more mobile - which was when he was best able to defend these actions.
I've watched a bit of tape regarding young Moses, and while he was quicker back then, I do feel that he wasn't great at rotations and really wasn't all that comfortable at the perimeter - his inclination was to stay near the hoop and be a physical presence under the rim to block shots and rebound. Good defensive centre though, that shot-blocking and defensive rebounding brings value on that end.

(1) This is the main point about Moses' defense. His awareness and activity off the ball as a help defender wasn't great. It comes and goes throughout the game. Sometimes he does it, sometimes he doesn't. It is the mental side of defense. Focus, recognition, awareness, commitment.

Moses had the physical quickness to make those rotations but he was lacking in the mental side.

This is true for both interior and perimeter help defense actions.

(2) The second point about Moses' comfort on the perimeter. You have to compare him to players of his own era. No centers in that era wanted to be away from the rim defensively. Their job was to be the paint. Defend the paint, rebound the ball.

They were only rarely asked to defend outside of the paint and so had little experience of doing so. Put them in today's game where they have to do it more often and that comfort level grows.

So I compare look at these big guys and i compare them to other big men of that era. How do they fare defending away from the basket? Moses was better than most. Particularly one-on-one. You can see his quickness. You see the capacity. You scale that out with added experience and the result is very positive in my view.

Well, young Moses this is.
1983 peak Moses was not as good at these things.

Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #252 on: December 14, 2020, 09:45:20 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ8BVTiJsWU

Just sayin'.

I like your style but this has already been done with a much better player.




Just saying.....
😁😁😇😇👍👍

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ans5sp1y9R0

Marc Gasol's vast skill set is going to put pressure on any Center or big in this draft.

That clip is from his TOR days...he was a better 3-pt shooter for the year I selected (16-17).

Can't double him...he'll then punish you with his passing...either to Nash, Marjerle, Free, Rose, The Lewis's or any other three point shooter on our team.

He and Nash will also be a great pick and roll tandem.

Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #253 on: December 14, 2020, 09:52:37 AM »

Offline Darth_Yoda

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Yoda, what specific mismatches do you think your team creates against other teams?

My best attribute, IMO, is that I can excell at small ball, and super small ABA style basketball.

It gives up defensively against the biggest of the lineups, but I should be able to run teams off the court.

Blaylock (Speed, outside shooting, defender, lots of steals to start fast break)
Reggie (non stop movement offensively, excellent shooter, patrols passing lanes well)
Gervin (one of the greatest scorers, fast, lots of steals, blocks shots from weak side defensively)
McGinnis or Hawkins (Playmaking, excellent rebounding, floor spacing shooting, speed and athleticism)
Ibaka (Floor spacing, defense, shot blocking without giving up defensivly)

I also believe my team is the most versatile as I can produce lineups based on need.

ABA lineup
Blaylock, Reggie, Gervin, Hawkins, McGinnis

Small Ball
Blaylock or Lowry, Reggie, Gervin, Hawkins or McGinnis, Ibaka

Defensive primary lineup
Blaylock, Hornacek, McGinnis, Ibaka, Capela

Bully basketball
Lowry, Anderson, Smith, Ibaka, Laimbeer

3pt shooting
Hornacek, Reggie, Anderson, Korver, Ibaka

'21 Historical Draft
PG: Kyle Lowry / Mookie Blaylock / Mark Jackson
SG: Reggie Miller / Jeff Hornacek / Nick Anderson
SF: George Gervin / George McGinnis / Kyle Korver
PF: Connie Hawkins / Serge Ibaka / Josh Smith
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Re: 2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?
« Reply #254 on: December 14, 2020, 09:58:07 AM »

Offline Somebody

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my Rockets team with Draymond and Gobert

Moses would eat Gobert, and especially Draymond, alive.  Green wouldn’t be able to defend great historical centers.

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So low individual production + low team offense + vulnerable to decreased defensive value.

That’s a good way to put it, although I wonder if any player contributing fewer than 10ppg could effectively start in this league, regardless of other contributions.
Moses wouldn't eat Gobert alive and neither would he kill Draymond in switches. Nostalgia much :laugh:
It’s not nostalgia, it’s accepting the fact that today’s big men simply aren’t as good as the all-time greats.  Draymond Green is 6’6”.  He’s not going to be effective defending dominant bigs in the post.

Is it nostalgia to note that in 1982, Moses scored more than the best seasons of your starting big men, combined?
The big men of the early 80s were way better than the bigs of today? Embiid and Jokic would disagree :laugh:. Draymond Green was effective in defending those bigs on switches (you specifically mentioned switches), I see no reason why he can't do a job on Moses when Gobert will handle Moses most of the time.

It is very much nostalgia when you make sweeping statements on how a big man from the past would dominate the best defensive bigs of today like they are rag dolls.
Yes, I’d take any of the bigs I mentioned above over Embiid, and almost all of them over Jokic (who is a terrible defender, but a unique offensive player).
And that's what I call nostalgia :laugh:. Kareem was definitely a two-way anchor who transcended all of these centres in the early 80s, but guys like Moses and Gilmore (FWIW I think Moses is a level above 80s Gilmore if not two) were certainly not significantly better than Embiid and Jokic (Jokic is hardly terrible defensively, he's more of a neutral/slight positive on that end), Moses is around the same level as those two.

You never saw a single one of these guys play, correct? I’ll let Moses’ three MVP awards speak for themselves here.

Here’s some reading on Jokic’s defense:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/8/25/21400158/denver-nuggets-nikola-jokic-defense-ben-simmons

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There are no right decisions for Jokic when guarding the two-man game between Mitchell and Gobert. He’s not fast enough to extend out to the perimeter, and can’t protect the rim well enough when dropping back in the paint. Jokic may have changed his body during the hiatus, but he still has severe limitations on defense.

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The numbers, per Synergy Sports, don’t even look real. Jokic is second in the playoffs among all players in possessions per game (14.8) defending a pick-and-roll screener, and no. 31 in the average number of points per possession (1.373) allowed on those plays. That’s higher than JJ Redick’s average on unguarded catch-and-shoot jumpers (1.348) this season.
Ah yes the good old "y-you've never watched them play!" argument, just to circle back to accolades given at a time when egregious nominations were being given left and right. :laugh:

Here's some extra reading regarding Jokic's defence:

https://www.denverstiffs.com/2020/2/10/21131100/stat-of-the-week-nikola-jokic-defensive-impact-nba-rim-protectors-are-overrated

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But as offenses have grown smarter, so have defenses, Jokic chief among them. The Nuggets have designed a scheme to take advantage of Jokic’s basketball instincts to prevent shots at the rim. When Jokic is on the floor, the Nuggets allow 3.8 percent fewer shots at the rim than average. That ranks in the 93rd percentile among all NBA players, meaning Jokic is elite at preventing shots at the rim despite being unable to jump over a phone book.

By comparison, here’s how other rim protectors stack up preventing shots at the rim when they are on the floor:

Joel Embiid - 100th percentile (Minus-7.9 percent)
Bam
 Adebayo - 98th percentile (Minus-5.5 percent)
Draymond Green - 95th percentile (Minus-4.7 percent)
Kristaps Porzingis - 95th percentile (Minus-4.5 percent)
Nikola Jokic - 93rd percentile (Minus-3.9 percent)
Rudy Gobert - 92nd percentile (Minus-3.8 percent)
Hassan Whiteside - 92nd percentile (Minus-3.6 percent)
Marc Gasol - 88th percentile (Minus-3.2 percent)
Brook Lopez - 75th percentile (Minus-1.8 percent)

https://www.denverstiffs.com/2020/8/30/21408210/five-takeaways-from-an-emotional-game-6-nuggets-win-over-the-utah-jazz

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The TNT broadcast team spent the first five minutes of this game roasting Denver’s defense for not being able to contest any Jazz shooter on the perimeter. Nikola Jokic was playing some drop coverage, and the Jazz were hitting the shots they needed to hit at an insanely high clip.

When the Nuggets started mixing up the coverages, the Jazz offense slowed down. Every member of the Nuggets rotation had some great defensive plays tonight, even Michael Porter Jr., Paul Millsap, and Nikola Jokic who all made some great rotations and contested shots better as the game went on. When the Nuggets started subbing players in, they started playing Jokic at the level of the screen a bit more and having him show hard against Jazz ball handlers. Sometimes, they got around him and scored anyway, but most of the time, Denver’s defense was pretty solid.

And here's some film analysis of Jokic so you can start watching him play ;)

https://youtu.be/okIwFBdbEOc
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA