Author Topic: Jrue Holiday to Bucks  (Read 20052 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2020, 04:40:42 AM »

Online Kernewek

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4675
  • Tommy Points: 297
  • International Superstar
Wow great trade for Bucks..clearly favorites in East for now
Did you read the part where they trade away 3 firsts and 2 pick swaps? :P

I'm a big fan of Jrue's game, but that's a massive overpay. Imo, the Bucks got fleeced. They did become a considerably better team though, that's for sure.

Probably an overpay in a vaccuum but when you have one of the three or four best players in the NBA and you want to convince him to stay in your city, you're going to have to spend a bit more to get good players. There's 29 front offices in the league that want Giannis out of Milwaukee, after all.
"...unceasingly we are bombarded with pseudo-realities manufactured by very sophisticated people using very sophisticated electronic mechanisms. I do not distrust their motives; I distrust their power. They have a lot of it."

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2020, 04:42:31 AM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3142
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
Wow great trade for Bucks..clearly favorites in East for now
Did you read the part where they trade away 3 firsts and 2 pick swaps? :P

I'm a big fan of Jrue's game, but that's a massive overpay. Imo, the Bucks got fleeced. They did upgrade their starting lineup though, that's for sure.
I think if Giannis extends and they can win a title it was worth it.

However, if he leaves...
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2020, 04:53:30 AM »

Online tazzmaniac

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8874
  • Tommy Points: 577
We don't know what the pick details are but I give the Bucks an A++ to make big moves to keep Giannis.  When you're a backwater like Milwaukee and your young superstar says he'd like to stay but it depends on the moves you make, you better swing for the fences.  I'd expect that Giannis was consulted on these trades.  Without Giannis, the Bucks future is mediocre at best.

We don't know the details of the picks yet.  3 firsts and 2 pick swaps trade seems high for Jrue.  However if they re-sign Giannis, it is an absolute steal.  Those 3 1sts will most likely all be late 1sts and the 2 pick swaps are very unlikely to occur.  If Giannis leaves, the Bucks future is mediocre at best but I doubt they get really bad.  There is a good chance that NOP still finishes worse than the Bucks.  Maybe NOP gets one of the pick swaps but I doubt they get both.  Maybe the 3 1sts become: a late 1st, a mid 1st and late lottery.  Giving that up for an increased chance at the championship and retaining your young superstar is well worth the risk. 

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2020, 05:20:24 AM »

Offline Jvalin

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3739
  • Tommy Points: 737
Wow great trade for Bucks..clearly favorites in East for now
Did you read the part where they trade away 3 firsts and 2 pick swaps? :P

I'm a big fan of Jrue's game, but that's a massive overpay. Imo, the Bucks got fleeced. They did become a considerably better team though, that's for sure.

Probably an overpay in a vaccuum but when you have one of the three or four best players in the NBA and you want to convince him to stay in your city, you're going to have to spend a bit more to get good players. There's 29 front offices in the league that want Giannis out of Milwaukee, after all.
They could have still overpaid for some player at the trade deadline assuming Giannis had refused to re-sign with them (the deadline for an extention is on December 21). I like the Bogdanovic trade though. If no other Bledsoe trades were on the table, I really think the Bucks should have just made the Bogdanovic deal. I'd also be open to the idea of trading BroLo. For instance, I would have tried to strike a deal with the Rockets for Covington.

PG: Bledsoe - Hill
SG: Bogdan
SF: Middleton
PF: Covington
C: Giannis

Hill was literally the perfect fit next to Giannis. He was happy to play off the ball and he led the league with 46% from 3 last season on 3 attempts per game. Jrue may be the best on-ball guard defender in the NBA, but he's just a passable shooter (35.3% from 3 this year, 35.4% for his career).

Btw, Bobby Marks is reporting that Bogdan signed for $14.65M in year 1. That's fair value in my book. Based on this number, the Bucks got about $17.3M to fill out 8 roster spots. I'm really curious to see how they fill out their roster.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 05:31:56 AM by Jvalin »

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2020, 05:21:39 AM »

Offline PAOBoston

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8131
  • Tommy Points: 535
Holy moly that’s a lot to give up! But, if that means Giannis signs his super max then it is well worth it for Milwaukee.

Also saw they are trying to get Bogdanovic from Sac

Holiday
Bogdanovic
Middleton
Giannis
Lopez

That’s a [dang] good lineup.

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2020, 05:27:28 AM »

Online Kernewek

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4675
  • Tommy Points: 297
  • International Superstar
Wow great trade for Bucks..clearly favorites in East for now
Did you read the part where they trade away 3 firsts and 2 pick swaps? :P

I'm a big fan of Jrue's game, but that's a massive overpay. Imo, the Bucks got fleeced. They did become a considerably better team though, that's for sure.

Probably an overpay in a vaccuum but when you have one of the three or four best players in the NBA and you want to convince him to stay in your city, you're going to have to spend a bit more to get good players. There's 29 front offices in the league that want Giannis out of Milwaukee, after all.
They could have still overpaid for some player at the trade deadline assuming Giannis had refused to re-sing with them (the deadline for an extention is on December 21). I like the Bogdanovic trade though. If no other Bledsoe trades were on the table, I really think the Bucks should have just made the Bogdanovic deal. I'd also be open to the idea of trading BroLo. For instance, I would have tried to strike a deal with the Rockets for Covington.

PG: Bledsoe - Hill
SG: Bogdan
SF: Middleton
PF: Covington
C: Giannis

Hill was literally the perfect fit next to Giannis. He led the league with 46% from 3 last season on 3 attempts per game. He's also happy to play off the ball. Jrue may be the best on-ball guard defender in the NBA, but he's just a passable shooter (35.3% from 3 this year, 35.4% for his career).

Btw, Bobby Marks is reporting that Bogdan signed for $14.65M in year 1. That's fair value in my book. Based on this number, the Bucks got about 18 million to fill out 8 roster spots. I'm really curious to see how they fill out their roster.

Fair, but appearances matter. How many times has Ainge been burned by waiting too long for the perfect piece to be available at the deadline and then a deal can't get done? It seems to be the aftermath of the trade deadline every year for us.

You want to be showing your best player that you're actively making moves to make the team better. "Wait and see" isn't always the most reassuring note, even if you can give someone a ridiculous salary relative to other teams.
"...unceasingly we are bombarded with pseudo-realities manufactured by very sophisticated people using very sophisticated electronic mechanisms. I do not distrust their motives; I distrust their power. They have a lot of it."

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2020, 05:32:08 AM »

Online tazzmaniac

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8874
  • Tommy Points: 577
From a Celtics perspective, the Bucks just got a lot tougher.  Jrue is going to make Kemba's life miserable both offensively and defensively.  The Bucks just need a couple solid bench players. 

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2020, 05:40:28 AM »

Online tazzmaniac

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8874
  • Tommy Points: 577
Wow great trade for Bucks..clearly favorites in East for now
Did you read the part where they trade away 3 firsts and 2 pick swaps? :P

I'm a big fan of Jrue's game, but that's a massive overpay. Imo, the Bucks got fleeced. They did become a considerably better team though, that's for sure.

Probably an overpay in a vaccuum but when you have one of the three or four best players in the NBA and you want to convince him to stay in your city, you're going to have to spend a bit more to get good players. There's 29 front offices in the league that want Giannis out of Milwaukee, after all.
They could have still overpaid for some player at the trade deadline assuming Giannis had refused to re-sign with them (the deadline for an extention is on December 21). I like the Bogdanovic trade though. If no other Bledsoe trades were on the table, I really think the Bucks should have just made the Bogdanovic deal. I'd also be open to the idea of trading BroLo. For instance, I would have tried to strike a deal with the Rockets for Covington.

PG: Bledsoe - Hill
SG: Bogdan
SF: Middleton
PF: Covington
C: Giannis

Hill was literally the perfect fit next to Giannis. He was happy to play off the ball and he led the league with 46% from 3 last season on 3 attempts per game. Jrue may be the best on-ball guard defender in the NBA, but he's just a passable shooter (35.3% from 3 this year, 35.4% for his career).

Btw, Bobby Marks is reporting that Bogdan signed for $14.65M in year 1. That's fair value in my book. Based on this number, the Bucks got about $17.3M to fill out 8 roster spots. I'm really curious to see how they fill out their roster.
The Blazer gave up 2 probable mid 1sts for Covington.  If Giannis stays, all 3 Bucks 1sts are probably late 1sts and the 2 pick swaps don't occur.  3 late 1sts for Holiday >>>  2 mid 1sts for Covington. 

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2020, 06:17:17 AM »

Offline Jvalin

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3739
  • Tommy Points: 737
Wow great trade for Bucks..clearly favorites in East for now
Did you read the part where they trade away 3 firsts and 2 pick swaps? :P

I'm a big fan of Jrue's game, but that's a massive overpay. Imo, the Bucks got fleeced. They did become a considerably better team though, that's for sure.

Probably an overpay in a vaccuum but when you have one of the three or four best players in the NBA and you want to convince him to stay in your city, you're going to have to spend a bit more to get good players. There's 29 front offices in the league that want Giannis out of Milwaukee, after all.
They could have still overpaid for some player at the trade deadline assuming Giannis had refused to re-sign with them (the deadline for an extention is on December 21). I like the Bogdanovic trade though. If no other Bledsoe trades were on the table, I really think the Bucks should have just made the Bogdanovic deal. I'd also be open to the idea of trading BroLo. For instance, I would have tried to strike a deal with the Rockets for Covington.

PG: Bledsoe - Hill
SG: Bogdan
SF: Middleton
PF: Covington
C: Giannis

Hill was literally the perfect fit next to Giannis. He was happy to play off the ball and he led the league with 46% from 3 last season on 3 attempts per game. Jrue may be the best on-ball guard defender in the NBA, but he's just a passable shooter (35.3% from 3 this year, 35.4% for his career).

Btw, Bobby Marks is reporting that Bogdan signed for $14.65M in year 1. That's fair value in my book. Based on this number, the Bucks got about $17.3M to fill out 8 roster spots. I'm really curious to see how they fill out their roster.
The Blazer gave up 2 probable mid 1sts for Covington.  If Giannis stays, all 3 Bucks 1sts are probably late 1sts and the 2 pick swaps don't occur.  3 late 1sts for Holiday >>>  2 mid 1sts for Covington.
Agreed. I would have been unwilling to beat Portland's offer and I would have just kept BroLo.

PG: Bledsoe - Hill
SG: Bogdan
SF: Middleton
PF: Giannis
C: BroLo

That's still a significant upgrade over their 2019/20 lineup. Imo, the Bucks #1 need going into the offseason was adding a closer. Jrue is an amazing 2-way player, but he ain't a closer. He was shooting 34% in the clutch last season. The respective number for Middleton is even worse. He was shooting 30.6% in the clutch. They traded away 3 firsts + 2 pick swaps and they didn't even address their biggest need.

Bogdanovic was shooting 40% in the clutch last season. Not sure whether he's good enough to lead a contending team in the clutch, but he may be their best bet come playoff time.

Mind you, Jrue has a player option in 2021. Chances are he'll opt out. If Giannis walks (fwiw, I believe he'll stay), it's possible that the Bucks gave away all these assets for a 1-year rental of Jrue. They are basically putting all their eggs in one basket. It's a massive risk on their part. At the very least, they could have waited till the deadline to take such a risk. It's totally possible that Giannis would have signed an extension prior to the start of the 2020/21 season. If so, they would have kept both Giannis and all their future assets.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 06:38:33 AM by Jvalin »

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2020, 06:43:03 AM »

Offline scaryjerry

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3836
  • Tommy Points: 232
Like Jrue and all but yikes, he was so underrated he became massively overrated and this is a massive over pay for him, no guarantee this actually makes them better

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2020, 06:50:21 AM »

Online tazzmaniac

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8874
  • Tommy Points: 577
Wow great trade for Bucks..clearly favorites in East for now
Did you read the part where they trade away 3 firsts and 2 pick swaps? :P

I'm a big fan of Jrue's game, but that's a massive overpay. Imo, the Bucks got fleeced. They did become a considerably better team though, that's for sure.

Probably an overpay in a vaccuum but when you have one of the three or four best players in the NBA and you want to convince him to stay in your city, you're going to have to spend a bit more to get good players. There's 29 front offices in the league that want Giannis out of Milwaukee, after all.
They could have still overpaid for some player at the trade deadline assuming Giannis had refused to re-sign with them (the deadline for an extention is on December 21). I like the Bogdanovic trade though. If no other Bledsoe trades were on the table, I really think the Bucks should have just made the Bogdanovic deal. I'd also be open to the idea of trading BroLo. For instance, I would have tried to strike a deal with the Rockets for Covington.

PG: Bledsoe - Hill
SG: Bogdan
SF: Middleton
PF: Covington
C: Giannis

Hill was literally the perfect fit next to Giannis. He was happy to play off the ball and he led the league with 46% from 3 last season on 3 attempts per game. Jrue may be the best on-ball guard defender in the NBA, but he's just a passable shooter (35.3% from 3 this year, 35.4% for his career).

Btw, Bobby Marks is reporting that Bogdan signed for $14.65M in year 1. That's fair value in my book. Based on this number, the Bucks got about $17.3M to fill out 8 roster spots. I'm really curious to see how they fill out their roster.
The Blazer gave up 2 probable mid 1sts for Covington.  If Giannis stays, all 3 Bucks 1sts are probably late 1sts and the 2 pick swaps don't occur.  3 late 1sts for Holiday >>>  2 mid 1sts for Covington.
Agreed. I would have been unwilling to beat Portland's offer and I would have just kept Brolo.

PG: Bledsoe - Hill
SG: Bogdan
SF: Middleton
PF: Giannis
C: BroLo

That's still a significant upgrade over their 2019/20 lineup. Imo, the Bucks #1 need going into the offseason was adding a closer. Jrue is an amazing 2-way player, but he ain't a closer. He was shooting 34% in the clutch last season. The respective number for Middleton is even worse. He was shooting 30.6% in the clutch. They traded away 3 firsts + 2 pick swaps and they didn't even address their biggest need.

Bogdanovic was shooting 40% in the clutch last season. Not sure whether he's good enough to lead a contending team in the clutch, but he's definitely a nice pick up for the Bucks.

Mind you, Jrue has a player option in 2021. Chances are he'll opt out. If Giannis walks (fwiw, I believe he'll stay), it's possible that the Bucks gave away all these assets for a 1-year rental of Jrue. They are basically putting all their eggs in one basket. It's a massive risk on their part. At the very least, they could have waited till the deadline to take such a risk. It's totally possible that Giannis would have signed an extension prior to the start of the season. If so, they would have kept both Giannis and all their future assets.
I disagree.  Priority 1, 2 and 3 for the Bucks is to re-sign Giannis.  If the Bucks don't trade for Jrue now, he likely is traded to some other team soon not at the deadline.  Trading for Jrue now significantly increases the chances Giannis signs his supermax now.  Midseason trades rarely work out.  It is very disruptive to team chemistry.  Players aren't plug and play. 

The massive risk is not doing everything possible to get Giannis to re-sign.  If Giannis re-signs, they've only given up 3 late 1sts in all likelihood.  That isn't a big deal even if Holiday leaves after 1 season. 

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2020, 06:56:22 AM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 62479
  • Tommy Points: -25481
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
If this trade gets Giannis to re-sign, it was worth it. 

But man, that’s a lot of risk.  If things go badly, they could be looking at no Giannis, no Jrue and no picks going forward.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2020, 07:10:17 AM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
Well I hope the bucks smash the nets and the lakers
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2020, 07:21:29 AM »

Offline Jvalin

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3739
  • Tommy Points: 737
Wow great trade for Bucks..clearly favorites in East for now
Did you read the part where they trade away 3 firsts and 2 pick swaps? :P

I'm a big fan of Jrue's game, but that's a massive overpay. Imo, the Bucks got fleeced. They did become a considerably better team though, that's for sure.

Probably an overpay in a vaccuum but when you have one of the three or four best players in the NBA and you want to convince him to stay in your city, you're going to have to spend a bit more to get good players. There's 29 front offices in the league that want Giannis out of Milwaukee, after all.
They could have still overpaid for some player at the trade deadline assuming Giannis had refused to re-sign with them (the deadline for an extention is on December 21). I like the Bogdanovic trade though. If no other Bledsoe trades were on the table, I really think the Bucks should have just made the Bogdanovic deal. I'd also be open to the idea of trading BroLo. For instance, I would have tried to strike a deal with the Rockets for Covington.

PG: Bledsoe - Hill
SG: Bogdan
SF: Middleton
PF: Covington
C: Giannis

Hill was literally the perfect fit next to Giannis. He was happy to play off the ball and he led the league with 46% from 3 last season on 3 attempts per game. Jrue may be the best on-ball guard defender in the NBA, but he's just a passable shooter (35.3% from 3 this year, 35.4% for his career).

Btw, Bobby Marks is reporting that Bogdan signed for $14.65M in year 1. That's fair value in my book. Based on this number, the Bucks got about $17.3M to fill out 8 roster spots. I'm really curious to see how they fill out their roster.
The Blazer gave up 2 probable mid 1sts for Covington.  If Giannis stays, all 3 Bucks 1sts are probably late 1sts and the 2 pick swaps don't occur.  3 late 1sts for Holiday >>>  2 mid 1sts for Covington.
Agreed. I would have been unwilling to beat Portland's offer and I would have just kept Brolo.

PG: Bledsoe - Hill
SG: Bogdan
SF: Middleton
PF: Giannis
C: BroLo

That's still a significant upgrade over their 2019/20 lineup. Imo, the Bucks #1 need going into the offseason was adding a closer. Jrue is an amazing 2-way player, but he ain't a closer. He was shooting 34% in the clutch last season. The respective number for Middleton is even worse. He was shooting 30.6% in the clutch. They traded away 3 firsts + 2 pick swaps and they didn't even address their biggest need.

Bogdanovic was shooting 40% in the clutch last season. Not sure whether he's good enough to lead a contending team in the clutch, but he's definitely a nice pick up for the Bucks.

Mind you, Jrue has a player option in 2021. Chances are he'll opt out. If Giannis walks (fwiw, I believe he'll stay), it's possible that the Bucks gave away all these assets for a 1-year rental of Jrue. They are basically putting all their eggs in one basket. It's a massive risk on their part. At the very least, they could have waited till the deadline to take such a risk. It's totally possible that Giannis would have signed an extension prior to the start of the season. If so, they would have kept both Giannis and all their future assets.
I disagree.  Priority 1, 2 and 3 for the Bucks is to re-sign Giannis.  If the Bucks don't trade for Jrue now, he likely is traded to some other team soon not at the deadline.  Trading for Jrue now significantly increases the chances Giannis signs his supermax now.  Midseason trades rarely work out.  It is very disruptive to team chemistry.  Players aren't plug and play. 

The massive risk is not doing everything possible to get Giannis to re-sign.  If Giannis re-signs, they've only given up 3 late 1sts in all likelihood.  That isn't a big deal even if Holiday leaves after 1 season.
Agree to disagree. :)

Again, Giannis could have extended his contract prior to the December 21 deadline regardless of the Jrue trade. Why not wait and see? Unless he informed the Bucks he would only stay if they traded for Jrue (which seems unlikely), imo this is a panic move from the Bucks. They got fleeced big time.

Never said they could have gone after Jrue at the trade deadline. They could have gone after a different player. Jrue isn't even an ideal fit next to Giannis cause he's just a passable shooter. He's basically a rich man's Bledsoe. Is it worth it to trade away all these assets for an upgraded version of Bledsoe? Imo, it definitely isn't. 


Like Jrue and all but yikes, he was so underrated he became massively overrated and this is a massive over pay for him, no guarantee this actually makes them better
This. Jrue was underrated all these years. I guess it's about time he became overrated.

In a vacuum, Jrue > Bledsoe + Hill. No doubt about that. Specifically for the Bucks, I'm really not sure. Again, Hill was the perfect fit next to Giannis. Losing Hill is a big blow for them. Possibly an even bigger blow than losing Bledsoe. Fit matters, especially when your star player is a below average shooter. Giannis needs to be surrounded by shooters. Jrue can do a million things on the court. Unfortunately for the Bucks, he ain't a knockdown shooter.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 07:58:32 AM by Jvalin »

Re: Jrue Holiday to Bucks
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2020, 07:33:40 AM »

Offline JohnBoy65

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 929
  • Tommy Points: 134
You can't value Giannis to that bucks team. If this guarantees Giannis stays it's not an overpay. I'd hope that the Bucks FO talked with Giannis about this trade. I look at this trade as Bledsoe and the picks for Holliday and 5 years of Giannis.