Bill Simmons says 2020 Lakers would beat 2008 Celtics

[wiley]

Our 2008 Celtics juggernaut would have had like 3 or 4 titles if not for horrible injuries to key people...#1 being Garnett...It was not a flash in the pan team.

It was their first year together...then they slowly turned into a steamroller, and were even better going forward...just nailed by injury.

The best player on the floor stuff is so overdone...just compare the teams please.

[BitterJim]

It's weird to me that people bring up the records in earlier playoff series to try and claim that a team wasn't actually good.

The 2008 Lakers were much better than the 2020 Heat (especially the injured version that played in the finals), yet both took 6 games to put away! Is that proof that the 2008 Celtics are way better than the 2020 Lakers?

(Spoiler: it isn't. Nor is the 2008 Celtics' taking 6 or 7 games for most series a sign that they weren't actually that good)

[GreenFaith1819]

One other often-overlooked nugget is that that 2007-08 Celtics team was the FIRST (and ONLY) NBA team to go from WORST (24-58 2006-07 season) to FIRST (66-16, World Champs) the NEXT season.

If it was "LAL" that did that you'd NEVER hear the end of it.

And PP34 and KG are STILL giving to our team - in that that they agreed to a heart-wrenching trade that bore us our core (and FUTURE) today.

That 2007-08 Boston Celtics team is simply one of the BEST in NBA History.

[liam]

It's weird to me that people bring up the records in earlier playoff series to try and claim that a team wasn't actually good.

The 2008 Lakers were much better than the 2020 Heat (especially the injured version that played in the finals), yet both took 6 games to put away! Is that proof that the 2008 Celtics are way better than the 2020 Lakers?

(Spoiler: it isn't. Nor is the 2008 Celtics' taking 6 or 7 games for most series a sign that they weren't actually that good)

The Hawks team the Celtics faced in the first round was better than that Heat team. I don't think the Lakers faced one team as good as that Hawks team. Maybe the Nuggets...

[gouki88]

The lengths Moranis goes to defend LeBron

[Moranis]

The lengths Moranis goes to defend LeBron

Sorry that I recognize greatness and actually appreciate it.  Lebron James is the greatest player of all time and still in year 17 was the 2nd best player in the league last season (and given the respective post season runs you could reasonably argue was actually better than Giannis).  You can reasonably expect him to be a top 3 or 4 player next year as well, in year 18.  Just absolutely amazing. 

And it isn't just a defense of Lebron, I'm defending history in this thread.  You know the history where the team with the two best players in a series wins something like 95% or more of the time.  It is an easy argument to make when you have the entire history of the league of supporting the position.  Now if you want to argue that KG and Davis are about equal, that is fair, but you still have to fight against history where a team with the best player and the 3rd best player loses a playoff series because that too is also rare (not as rare, but still very rare). 

This is also why I've been more down on the C's title chances the last 5 years than most of the board.  The simple truth is Boston just hasn't had the level of player needed to really win since KG got hurt in 2009.  Hopefully Tatum hits that top 5 level of player at some point in his career and can be the anchor to a multi-year contender.  I believe he can, but I also don't think that happens next year.  21-22 I think is that time when he really starts hitting his peak.  I just hope Ainge hasn't ruined Boston's chances to compete at that time with all these win now moves sacrificing assets that could have been used to support Tatum when it actually makes sense to support Tatum (obviously Brown is a great 2nd piece, but those two alone aren't nearly enough).

[86MaxwellSmart]

Bill Simmons was cool 15 years ago....he needs to shut his pie hole now....complete tool.

[wiley]

The lengths Moranis goes to defend LeBron

Sorry that I recognize greatness and actually appreciate it.  Lebron James is the greatest player of all time and still in year 17 was the 2nd best player in the league last season (and given the respective post season runs you could reasonably argue was actually better than Giannis).  You can reasonably expect him to be a top 3 or 4 player next year as well, in year 18.  Just absolutely amazing. 

And it isn't just a defense of Lebron, I'm defending history in this thread.  You know the history where the team with the two best players in a series wins something like 95% or more of the time.  It is an easy argument to make when you have the entire history of the league of supporting the position.  Now if you want to argue that KG and Davis are about equal, that is fair, but you still have to fight against history where a team with the best player and the 3rd best player loses a playoff series because that too is also rare (not as rare, but still very rare). 

This is also why I've been more down on the C's title chances the last 5 years than most of the board.  The simple truth is Boston just hasn't had the level of player needed to really win since KG got hurt in 2009.  Hopefully Tatum hits that top 5 level of player at some point in his career and can be the anchor to a multi-year contender.  I believe he can, but I also don't think that happens next year.  21-22 I think is that time when he really starts hitting his peak.  I just hope Ainge hasn't ruined Boston's chances to compete at that time with all these win now moves sacrificing assets that could have been used to support Tatum when it actually makes sense to support Tatum (obviously Brown is a great 2nd piece, but those two alone aren't nearly enough).

You mention how it's a rare exception that the team with the best player loses...but it's happened twice to the guy you're talking about here.  How did Lebron, with Wade and Bosh, lose to Dallas in the finals.  How did Lebron, with Wade and Bosh, lose to the Spurs in 2014?

Lebron also would have lost to the Warriors if Green hadn't been suspended, (pre- Durant)...that would make three times that the guy you're saying is the reason 2020 Lakers beat 2008 Celtics.  He lost those other series in his prime.  He's now 35.  He's still great, but he was better back then.  There simply was not a great challenger this year to the Lakers.

[SparzWizard]

The lengths Moranis goes to defend LeBron

Sorry that I recognize greatness and actually appreciate it.  Lebron James is the greatest player of all time and still in year 17 was the 2nd best player in the league last season (and given the respective post season runs you could reasonably argue was actually better than Giannis).  You can reasonably expect him to be a top 3 or 4 player next year as well, in year 18.  Just absolutely amazing. 

And it isn't just a defense of Lebron, I'm defending history in this thread.  You know the history where the team with the two best players in a series wins something like 95% or more of the time.  It is an easy argument to make when you have the entire history of the league of supporting the position.  Now if you want to argue that KG and Davis are about equal, that is fair, but you still have to fight against history where a team with the best player and the 3rd best player loses a playoff series because that too is also rare (not as rare, but still very rare). 

This is also why I've been more down on the C's title chances the last 5 years than most of the board.  The simple truth is Boston just hasn't had the level of player needed to really win since KG got hurt in 2009.  Hopefully Tatum hits that top 5 level of player at some point in his career and can be the anchor to a multi-year contender.  I believe he can, but I also don't think that happens next year.  21-22 I think is that time when he really starts hitting his peak.  I just hope Ainge hasn't ruined Boston's chances to compete at that time with all these win now moves sacrificing assets that could have been used to support Tatum when it actually makes sense to support Tatum (obviously Brown is a great 2nd piece, but those two alone aren't nearly enough).

You mention how it's a rare exception that the team with the best player loses...but it's happened twice to the guy you're talking about here.  How did Lebron, with Wade and Bosh, lose to Dallas in the finals.  How did Lebron, with Wade and Bosh, lose to the Spurs in 2014?

Lebron also would have lost to the Warriors if Green hadn't been suspended, (pre- Durant)...that would make three times that the guy you're saying is the reason 2020 Lakers beat 2008 Celtics.  He lost those other series in his prime.  He's now 35.  He's still great, but he was better back then.  There simply was not a great challenger this year to the Lakers.

Don't forget LeBron was a Chris Bosh offensive rebound and a Ray Allen 3-pointer away from losing another Finals, to the Spurs.

[Moranis]

The lengths Moranis goes to defend LeBron

Sorry that I recognize greatness and actually appreciate it.  Lebron James is the greatest player of all time and still in year 17 was the 2nd best player in the league last season (and given the respective post season runs you could reasonably argue was actually better than Giannis).  You can reasonably expect him to be a top 3 or 4 player next year as well, in year 18.  Just absolutely amazing. 

And it isn't just a defense of Lebron, I'm defending history in this thread.  You know the history where the team with the two best players in a series wins something like 95% or more of the time.  It is an easy argument to make when you have the entire history of the league of supporting the position.  Now if you want to argue that KG and Davis are about equal, that is fair, but you still have to fight against history where a team with the best player and the 3rd best player loses a playoff series because that too is also rare (not as rare, but still very rare). 

This is also why I've been more down on the C's title chances the last 5 years than most of the board.  The simple truth is Boston just hasn't had the level of player needed to really win since KG got hurt in 2009.  Hopefully Tatum hits that top 5 level of player at some point in his career and can be the anchor to a multi-year contender.  I believe he can, but I also don't think that happens next year.  21-22 I think is that time when he really starts hitting his peak.  I just hope Ainge hasn't ruined Boston's chances to compete at that time with all these win now moves sacrificing assets that could have been used to support Tatum when it actually makes sense to support Tatum (obviously Brown is a great 2nd piece, but those two alone aren't nearly enough).

You mention how it's a rare exception that the team with the best player loses...but it's happened twice to the guy you're talking about here.  How did Lebron, with Wade and Bosh, lose to Dallas in the finals.  How did Lebron, with Wade and Bosh, lose to the Spurs in 2014?

Lebron also would have lost to the Warriors if Green hadn't been suspended, (pre- Durant)...that would make three times that the guy you're saying is the reason 2020 Lakers beat 2008 Celtics.  He lost those other series in his prime.  He's now 35.  He's still great, but he was better back then.  There simply was not a great challenger this year to the Lakers.

I didn't say it was rare for the team with best player to lose a playoff series.  That happens all the time.  I mean basically every series James has lost fits that bill.  I mean this year alone, the Bucks, Clippers, and arguably Sixers all lost series with the best player in the series.  That isn't uncommon at all. 

What I said it was rare for a team with the two best players in the series to lose.  That has happened maybe 5 times in the last 30 seasons or so and 7 times in like the last 40.  As I indicated, one of those times was arguably the Heat/Mavs series, though I do believe Dirk was the 2nd best player in the series.  Wade wasn't the 2nd best player in the Heat/Spurs series in 14.  That was Tony Parker who was 2nd Team All NBA (and it wasn't just because Wade was injured, because in 13, Parker was also on the 2nd Team while Wade was 3rd Team and they are both guards so it is clear who the writers thought was better).  You could also pretty easily argue that Duncan was better than Wade as well in 14 (the injuries really accelerated Wade's decline). 

The real candidates for series losses with the 2 best players are the 18 Sixers losing to the C's (no Irving so Embiid and Simmons were probably the 2 best players), the 14 Thunder losing to the Spurs, the 11 Heat losing to Mavs (I don't think this one applies as I think Dirk was better than Wade), the 04 Lakers losing to the Pistons, the 95 Bulls losing to the Magic (I don't think Pippen was better than Shaq, so doesn't apply, but it is arguable so I included it), the 84 Sixers losing to Nets, and the 83 Celtics losing to Bucks.  I certainly may have missed a series here or there, but that is going back basically 40 years and I could only pick like 7 series where it was even a discussion. 

It just doesn't happen very often. 

[wiley]

The lengths Moranis goes to defend LeBron

Sorry that I recognize greatness and actually appreciate it.  Lebron James is the greatest player of all time and still in year 17 was the 2nd best player in the league last season (and given the respective post season runs you could reasonably argue was actually better than Giannis).  You can reasonably expect him to be a top 3 or 4 player next year as well, in year 18.  Just absolutely amazing. 

And it isn't just a defense of Lebron, I'm defending history in this thread.  You know the history where the team with the two best players in a series wins something like 95% or more of the time.  It is an easy argument to make when you have the entire history of the league of supporting the position.  Now if you want to argue that KG and Davis are about equal, that is fair, but you still have to fight against history where a team with the best player and the 3rd best player loses a playoff series because that too is also rare (not as rare, but still very rare). 

This is also why I've been more down on the C's title chances the last 5 years than most of the board.  The simple truth is Boston just hasn't had the level of player needed to really win since KG got hurt in 2009.  Hopefully Tatum hits that top 5 level of player at some point in his career and can be the anchor to a multi-year contender.  I believe he can, but I also don't think that happens next year.  21-22 I think is that time when he really starts hitting his peak.  I just hope Ainge hasn't ruined Boston's chances to compete at that time with all these win now moves sacrificing assets that could have been used to support Tatum when it actually makes sense to support Tatum (obviously Brown is a great 2nd piece, but those two alone aren't nearly enough).

You mention how it's a rare exception that the team with the best player loses...but it's happened twice to the guy you're talking about here.  How did Lebron, with Wade and Bosh, lose to Dallas in the finals.  How did Lebron, with Wade and Bosh, lose to the Spurs in 2014?

Lebron also would have lost to the Warriors if Green hadn't been suspended, (pre- Durant)...that would make three times that the guy you're saying is the reason 2020 Lakers beat 2008 Celtics.  He lost those other series in his prime.  He's now 35.  He's still great, but he was better back then.  There simply was not a great challenger this year to the Lakers.

Don't forget LeBron was a Chris Bosh offensive rebound and a Ray Allen 3-pointer away from losing another Finals, to the Spurs.

good point!  and the 2014 loss to the Spurs was a 4-1 whooping.  And without the Kyrie dagger, he'd be down at 3 titles.  I have no problem with people saying Lebron is great, but I have a problem when people argue he's invincible.

[indeedproceed]

Bill SImmons says a lot of things. some of them are really stupid. He's cool with that, so am I.

[Somebody]

The lengths Moranis goes to defend LeBron

Sorry that I recognize greatness and actually appreciate it.  Lebron James is the greatest player of all time and still in year 17 was the 2nd best player in the league last season (and given the respective post season runs you could reasonably argue was actually better than Giannis).  You can reasonably expect him to be a top 3 or 4 player next year as well, in year 18.  Just absolutely amazing. 

And it isn't just a defense of Lebron, I'm defending history in this thread.  You know the history where the team with the two best players in a series wins something like 95% or more of the time.  It is an easy argument to make when you have the entire history of the league of supporting the position.  Now if you want to argue that KG and Davis are about equal, that is fair, but you still have to fight against history where a team with the best player and the 3rd best player loses a playoff series because that too is also rare (not as rare, but still very rare). 

This is also why I've been more down on the C's title chances the last 5 years than most of the board.  The simple truth is Boston just hasn't had the level of player needed to really win since KG got hurt in 2009. Hopefully Tatum hits that top 5 level of player at some point in his career and can be the anchor to a multi-year contender.  I believe he can, but I also don't think that happens next year.  21-22 I think is that time when he really starts hitting his peak.  I just hope Ainge hasn't ruined Boston's chances to compete at that time with all these win now moves sacrificing assets that could have been used to support Tatum when it actually makes sense to support Tatum (obviously Brown is a great 2nd piece, but those two alone aren't nearly enough).

He might not even make the top 15 next season with multiple MVP and All-NBA calibre talents returning from injury lol.

[Somebody]

The lengths Moranis goes to defend LeBron

Sorry that I recognize greatness and actually appreciate it.  Lebron James is the greatest player of all time and still in year 17 was the 2nd best player in the league last season (and given the respective post season runs you could reasonably argue was actually better than Giannis).  You can reasonably expect him to be a top 3 or 4 player next year as well, in year 18.  Just absolutely amazing. 

And it isn't just a defense of Lebron, I'm defending history in this thread.  You know the history where the team with the two best players in a series wins something like 95% or more of the time.  It is an easy argument to make when you have the entire history of the league of supporting the position.  Now if you want to argue that KG and Davis are about equal, that is fair, but you still have to fight against history where a team with the best player and the 3rd best player loses a playoff series because that too is also rare (not as rare, but still very rare). 

This is also why I've been more down on the C's title chances the last 5 years than most of the board.  The simple truth is Boston just hasn't had the level of player needed to really win since KG got hurt in 2009.  Hopefully Tatum hits that top 5 level of player at some point in his career and can be the anchor to a multi-year contender.  I believe he can, but I also don't think that happens next year.  21-22 I think is that time when he really starts hitting his peak.  I just hope Ainge hasn't ruined Boston's chances to compete at that time with all these win now moves sacrificing assets that could have been used to support Tatum when it actually makes sense to support Tatum (obviously Brown is a great 2nd piece, but those two alone aren't nearly enough).

You mention how it's a rare exception that the team with the best player loses...but it's happened twice to the guy you're talking about here.  How did Lebron, with Wade and Bosh, lose to Dallas in the finals.  How did Lebron, with Wade and Bosh, lose to the Spurs in 2014?

Lebron also would have lost to the Warriors if Green hadn't been suspended, (pre- Durant)...that would make three times that the guy you're saying is the reason 2020 Lakers beat 2008 Celtics.  He lost those other series in his prime.  He's now 35.  He's still great, but he was better back then.  There simply was not a great challenger this year to the Lakers.

Don't forget LeBron was a Chris Bosh offensive rebound and a Ray Allen 3-pointer away from losing another Finals, to the Spurs.

good point!  and the 2014 loss to the Spurs was a 4-1 whooping.  And without the Kyrie dagger, he'd be down at 3 titles.  I have no problem with people saying Lebron is great, but I have a problem when people argue he's invincible.

Great teams win titles, not just great players themselves. Look at Garnett in Minnesota to see how can an inept franchise ruin an all-time great.

[Somebody]

I feel that it would be a pretty close series. The Lakers have two of the top three players in this series (it starts getting really weird when you start nitpicking which out of the three is the best, they're really close as much as some people would like to underrate 08 Garnett compared to 20 LeBron and Davis ) while the Celtics have two All-NBA calibre players to somewhat compensate for their lack of a second MVP-calibre player.