Bill Simmons says 2020 Lakers would beat 2008 Celtics

[Roy H.]

He was on the 2nd Team in 05, didnt make a team in 06, and was 3rd team in 07 and he was fully healthy those years

3rd team in 2006

https://www.nba.com/history/awards/all-nba-team

And, it’s important to note who his competition at forward was those seasons: Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, etc.  All are better than Davis.

As for looking at team record...  Remember you’re comparing him to Anthony Davis.  Win totals in his Pelicans career (chronologically):  27, 34, 45, 30, 34, 48, 33

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Bill Simmons also thought James Young was a great draft pick.

Ahahaha I remember that one time, "We're going smart and young!" and did that little gesture on screen when they were drafted.

Yeah, he was so excited. Poor guy.

[Somebody]

I suspect that KG would have Davis begging for his mommy.  There isn’t a defender playing today who holds a candle to KG.  Hell, I took Giannis in the Historic Draft, and his defense can’t compare to KG’s.  Davis has never seen anything like 2008 KG.

Size + mobility + instincts / BBIQ + intensity + dirtyness. The guy was the total defensive package.

Hot take:  if KG did nothing on offense other than pass, set screens, and score off of putbacks, he’d still be a top five player in the NBA.

I know lol that's why I'm trying to get clarification from Moranis.

I know he is an ardent LeBron supporter (and for good reason) but I cannot see how they'd compete with that 07-08 BOS team - especially that BENCH.....

Leon (Tha Show) Powe
Glen Davis
PJ Brown
Posey - LeBron defender
TA - can defend LeBron. Didn''t really come into his prime defensively until MEM days but STILL a good player in BOS

Eddie House
Sam I am
Scott Pollard
Scal

That bench grinds 2020 LAL to a halt.

My reasoning is in the thread, but the easiest answer is LBJ and AD are the two best players in the series, and that will win you a playoff series like 95% of the time.

At the end of the day, top end talent wins playoffs series and when your team has the two best players in the series, you are going to win the vast majority of the time.  History tells us that.

Nothing separates KG and AD. KG was superior defensively, as a rebounder and as a passer, AD is the superior scorer and shooter. LBJ might have an edge, but KG and AD are 2a and 2b.

Can go through and dig up dozens of examples of teams with the best player losing series'.

Then there are 2 more All-Star calibre players on the Celtics whereas the Lakers have post-prime Rondo and ... Dwight? KCP? Give me a break.

I think there’s separation.  We don’t win a title in 2008 with Anthony Davis. KG was simply better.

Rondo was no where near an all star player in 2008.

Let you other all stars he was referring to were Pierce and Allen.

While I agree, I don't think there's any way to convince Moranis of that, so I settled for equal. KG was the 2nd best player in the league that year IMO.

Exactly. Thought it was obvious I was referring to the three All-Stars we had that year

Who was the first in your mind , I can't think of anyone who was that close to KG in '08 (maybe Kobe?).

[Somebody]

KG was on the downside.  His last 1st Team All NBA before that season was 2004. He was on the 2nd Team in 05, didnt make a team in 06, and was 3rd team in 07 and he was fully healthy those years. 08 was his last all NBA team (though obviously was injured in 09). He got a huge boost for anchoring the C's defense on the best team in the league, but statistically he wasn't there.  It was clear he had been losing steps for years which is why the Wolves were so bad his last couple seasons there. The 2nd best player in the league doesn't go 31-45 and 32-44 in consecutive seasons. 08 was a magical season, but as champions go that team isn't among the best.  The 20 Lakers aren't either, but I do believe they would win a series between those teams.

This argument is beyond fallacious, my god.

Hey don't you dare go against raw team record with a historically crappy supporting cast and my accolades that swears on the "fact" that Moses Malone is one of the most dominant centres of all time!

[Somebody]

He was on the 2nd Team in 05, didnt make a team in 06, and was 3rd team in 07 and he was fully healthy those years

3rd team in 2006

https://www.nba.com/history/awards/all-nba-team

And, it’s important to note who his competition at forward was those seasons: Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, etc.  All are better than Davis.

As for looking at team record...  Remember you’re comparing him to Anthony Davis.  Win totals in his Pelicans career (chronologically):  27, 34, 45, 30, 34, 48, 33

I don't think pre-'09 Bron and Dirk was as good as Davis this year, but using accolades and raw team record like they're some sort of indicator of player quality when you're comparing great players is ridiculous imo, Garnett was dragged down by some historically bad supporting casts in '06 and '07 while his team struggled with injuries in '05 in a ridiculously stacked conference.

[gouki88]

I suspect that KG would have Davis begging for his mommy.  There isn’t a defender playing today who holds a candle to KG.  Hell, I took Giannis in the Historic Draft, and his defense can’t compare to KG’s.  Davis has never seen anything like 2008 KG.

Size + mobility + instincts / BBIQ + intensity + dirtyness. The guy was the total defensive package.

Hot take:  if KG did nothing on offense other than pass, set screens, and score off of putbacks, he’d still be a top five player in the NBA.

I know lol that's why I'm trying to get clarification from Moranis.

I know he is an ardent LeBron supporter (and for good reason) but I cannot see how they'd compete with that 07-08 BOS team - especially that BENCH.....

Leon (Tha Show) Powe
Glen Davis
PJ Brown
Posey - LeBron defender
TA - can defend LeBron. Didn''t really come into his prime defensively until MEM days but STILL a good player in BOS

Eddie House
Sam I am
Scott Pollard
Scal

That bench grinds 2020 LAL to a halt.

My reasoning is in the thread, but the easiest answer is LBJ and AD are the two best players in the series, and that will win you a playoff series like 95% of the time.

At the end of the day, top end talent wins playoffs series and when your team has the two best players in the series, you are going to win the vast majority of the time.  History tells us that.

Nothing separates KG and AD. KG was superior defensively, as a rebounder and as a passer, AD is the superior scorer and shooter. LBJ might have an edge, but KG and AD are 2a and 2b.

Can go through and dig up dozens of examples of teams with the best player losing series'.

Then there are 2 more All-Star calibre players on the Celtics whereas the Lakers have post-prime Rondo and ... Dwight? KCP? Give me a break.

I think there’s separation.  We don’t win a title in 2008 with Anthony Davis. KG was simply better.

Rondo was no where near an all star player in 2008.

Let you other all stars he was referring to were Pierce and Allen.

While I agree, I don't think there's any way to convince Moranis of that, so I settled for equal. KG was the 2nd best player in the league that year IMO.

Exactly. Thought it was obvious I was referring to the three All-Stars we had that year

Who was the first in your mind , I can't think of anyone who was that close to KG in '08 (maybe Kobe?).

I got LeBron's 07-08 campaign confused with his 08-09 campaign tbh. IMO KG was on top that year.

That being said, 22 year-old CP3 and Kobe put up monster years too.

[Kernewek]

He was on the 2nd Team in 05, didnt make a team in 06, and was 3rd team in 07 and he was fully healthy those years

3rd team in 2006

https://www.nba.com/history/awards/all-nba-team

And, it’s important to note who his competition at forward was those seasons: Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, etc.  All are better than Davis.

As for looking at team record...  Remember you’re comparing him to Anthony Davis.  Win totals in his Pelicans career (chronologically):  27, 34, 45, 30, 34, 48, 33

I don't think pre-'09 Bron and Dirk was as good as Davis this year, but using accolades and raw team record like they're some sort of indicator of player quality when you're comparing great players is ridiculous imo, Garnett was dragged down by some historically bad supporting casts in '06 and '07 while his team struggled with injuries in '05 in a ridiculously stacked conference.

Considering team record could be interesting if you're focused on the idea that the team with the better players typically wins, particularly in the playoffs. So if you have the best player in the league, you would expect the team to win more often than not. James leaving Cleveland is probably the best example of this.

Davis is a tremendous player, but he's not close to Kevin Garnett. And I think Pierce is getting underrated in this hypothetical head to head as well.

Plus, which rules are they playing under? 2008? 2020?
https://cdn.nba.net/nba-drupal-prod/nba-rules-changes-history.pdf

[Somebody]

I suspect that KG would have Davis begging for his mommy.  There isn’t a defender playing today who holds a candle to KG.  Hell, I took Giannis in the Historic Draft, and his defense can’t compare to KG’s.  Davis has never seen anything like 2008 KG.

Size + mobility + instincts / BBIQ + intensity + dirtyness. The guy was the total defensive package.

Hot take:  if KG did nothing on offense other than pass, set screens, and score off of putbacks, he’d still be a top five player in the NBA.

I know lol that's why I'm trying to get clarification from Moranis.

I know he is an ardent LeBron supporter (and for good reason) but I cannot see how they'd compete with that 07-08 BOS team - especially that BENCH.....

Leon (Tha Show) Powe
Glen Davis
PJ Brown
Posey - LeBron defender
TA - can defend LeBron. Didn''t really come into his prime defensively until MEM days but STILL a good player in BOS

Eddie House
Sam I am
Scott Pollard
Scal

That bench grinds 2020 LAL to a halt.

My reasoning is in the thread, but the easiest answer is LBJ and AD are the two best players in the series, and that will win you a playoff series like 95% of the time.

At the end of the day, top end talent wins playoffs series and when your team has the two best players in the series, you are going to win the vast majority of the time.  History tells us that.

Nothing separates KG and AD. KG was superior defensively, as a rebounder and as a passer, AD is the superior scorer and shooter. LBJ might have an edge, but KG and AD are 2a and 2b.

Can go through and dig up dozens of examples of teams with the best player losing series'.

Then there are 2 more All-Star calibre players on the Celtics whereas the Lakers have post-prime Rondo and ... Dwight? KCP? Give me a break.

I think there’s separation.  We don’t win a title in 2008 with Anthony Davis. KG was simply better.

Rondo was no where near an all star player in 2008.

Let you other all stars he was referring to were Pierce and Allen.

While I agree, I don't think there's any way to convince Moranis of that, so I settled for equal. KG was the 2nd best player in the league that year IMO.

Exactly. Thought it was obvious I was referring to the three All-Stars we had that year

Who was the first in your mind , I can't think of anyone who was that close to KG in '08 (maybe Kobe?).

I got LeBron's 07-08 campaign confused with his 08-09 campaign tbh. IMO KG was on top that year.

That being said, 22 year-old CP3 and Kobe put up monster years too.

Oh absolutely, just think that Garnett's two-way dominance in '08 was one of the great big man seasons.

[Moranis]

I suspect that KG would have Davis begging for his mommy.  There isn’t a defender playing today who holds a candle to KG.  Hell, I took Giannis in the Historic Draft, and his defense can’t compare to KG’s.  Davis has never seen anything like 2008 KG.

Size + mobility + instincts / BBIQ + intensity + dirtyness. The guy was the total defensive package.

Hot take:  if KG did nothing on offense other than pass, set screens, and score off of putbacks, he’d still be a top five player in the NBA.

I know lol that's why I'm trying to get clarification from Moranis.

I know he is an ardent LeBron supporter (and for good reason) but I cannot see how they'd compete with that 07-08 BOS team - especially that BENCH.....

Leon (Tha Show) Powe
Glen Davis
PJ Brown
Posey - LeBron defender
TA - can defend LeBron. Didn''t really come into his prime defensively until MEM days but STILL a good player in BOS

Eddie House
Sam I am
Scott Pollard
Scal

That bench grinds 2020 LAL to a halt.

My reasoning is in the thread, but the easiest answer is LBJ and AD are the two best players in the series, and that will win you a playoff series like 95% of the time.

At the end of the day, top end talent wins playoffs series and when your team has the two best players in the series, you are going to win the vast majority of the time.  History tells us that.

Nothing separates KG and AD. KG was superior defensively, as a rebounder and as a passer, AD is the superior scorer and shooter. LBJ might have an edge, but KG and AD are 2a and 2b.

Can go through and dig up dozens of examples of teams with the best player losing series'.

Then there are 2 more All-Star calibre players on the Celtics whereas the Lakers have post-prime Rondo and ... Dwight? KCP? Give me a break.

I think there’s separation.  We don’t win a title in 2008 with Anthony Davis. KG was simply better.

Rondo was no where near an all star player in 2008.

Let you other all stars he was referring to were Pierce and Allen.

While I agree, I don't think there's any way to convince Moranis of that, so I settled for equal. KG was the 2nd best player in the league that year IMO.

Exactly. Thought it was obvious I was referring to the three All-Stars we had that year

Who was the first in your mind , I can't think of anyone who was that close to KG in '08 (maybe Kobe?).

I got LeBron's 07-08 campaign confused with his 08-09 campaign tbh. IMO KG was on top that year.

That being said, 22 year-old CP3 and Kobe put up monster years too.

Oh absolutely, just think that Garnett's two-way dominance in '08 was one of the great big man seasons.

He wasn't a dominant offensive player though.  Of course he never really was a dominant offensive player, which is a big reason why his teams always underperformed.  He wasn't that type of player.  He was always better suited as a #2 type guy with a dominant scorer on the team to shoulder the offensive load.  His only real team success came with Latrell Spreewell and Paul Pierce who are legit #1 scoring options.  His career best was 24.2 ppg and 58.9 TS% (next best is 23 ppg and he only had 2 other seasons above 57TS%).  KG was a good passer, but not a great one.  He was an elite rebounder, but not by 2008 when he was still very good, but not elite (16.8 TRB% and 10.1 per 36). 

[Moranis]

He was on the 2nd Team in 05, didnt make a team in 06, and was 3rd team in 07 and he was fully healthy those years

3rd team in 2006

https://www.nba.com/history/awards/all-nba-team

And, it’s important to note who his competition at forward was those seasons: Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, etc.  All are better than Davis.

As for looking at team record...  Remember you’re comparing him to Anthony Davis.  Win totals in his Pelicans career (chronologically):  27, 34, 45, 30, 34, 48, 33

Every other site I've seen says Shawn Marion was on the 3rd Team All NBA that year, not KG, but obviously the NBA should be the keeper of the official records.  Elton Brand made the 2nd Team in 2006.  Chris Bosh made the 2nd Team in 2007.  And I wasn't comparing AD or KG to them (but you sort of are proving my point because KG wasn't better than Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, etc. either so he was no where near the 2nd best player in the league), but merely showing that KG was on the downswing.  He didn't miraculously become a better player in year 13 at the age of 31.  He got to a better team and had much greater team success and had a fabulous season, but he wasn't all of a sudden the 2nd best player in the NBA after not being anywhere close to that the prior few seasons.  That is also why I mentioned the team record.  The 2nd best player in the world doesn't have a 63-89 record over 2 full seasons.  Davis isn't the 2nd best player in the world either and I never claimed he was.  His lack of team success puts him in the same general range as KG in my mind, but unlike KG he wasn't on the downswing and could actually get you a bucket if you needed one.  Again, I think they are close, I just think AD this past year was a bit better than KG in 2008.  KG in his peak was better, he just wasn't in his peak by 2008. 

[mobilija]

He was on the 2nd Team in 05, didnt make a team in 06, and was 3rd team in 07 and he was fully healthy those years

3rd team in 2006

https://www.nba.com/history/awards/all-nba-team

And, it’s important to note who his competition at forward was those seasons: Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, etc.  All are better than Davis.

As for looking at team record...  Remember you’re comparing him to Anthony Davis.  Win totals in his Pelicans career (chronologically):  27, 34, 45, 30, 34, 48, 33

I don't think pre-'09 Bron and Dirk was as good as Davis this year, but using accolades and raw team record like they're some sort of indicator of player quality when you're comparing great players is ridiculous imo, Garnett was dragged down by some historically bad supporting casts in '06 and '07 while his team struggled with injuries in '05 in a ridiculously stacked conference.

Considering team record could be interesting if you're focused on the idea that the team with the better players typically wins, particularly in the playoffs. So if you have the best player in the league, you would expect the team to win more often than not. James leaving Cleveland is probably the best example of this.

Davis is a tremendous player, but he's not close to Kevin Garnett. And I think Pierce is getting underrated in this hypothetical head to head as well.

Plus, which rules are they playing under? 2008? 2020?
https://cdn.nba.net/nba-drupal-prod/nba-rules-changes-history.pdf

Agreed on Pierce. He’s always gone toe to toe with Lebron and showed out very well. If you had to pick a SF to match up with Lebron defensively and offensively, I’m not sure who you would pick besides Pierce.

[Roy H.]

If you had to pick a SF to match up with Lebron defensively and offensively, I’m not sure who you would pick besides Pierce.

I think the only two modern guys in the conversation are Durant and Giannis.

[Kernewek]

If you had to pick a SF to match up with Lebron defensively and offensively, I’m not sure who you would pick besides Pierce.

I think the only two modern guys in the conversation are Durant and Giannis.

Inclined to agree, possibly Leonard as well?

[Roy H.]

Hot take:  Pau Gasol on the Lakers and Anthony Davis were closer than KG vs. Davis

That’s not even a knock on Davis.  Gasol was that good. 

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Anthony+Davis&player_id1_select=Anthony+Davis&player_id1=davisan02&idx=bbr__players&p1yrfrom=2020&player_id2_hint=Pau+Gasol&player_id2_select=Pau+Gasol&player_id2=gasolpa01&idx=bbr__players&p2yrfrom=2009

(Note, the above uses Gasol’s stats from 2009, since basketball-reference sold out and ruined all of their tools.  I can’t link to just Gasol’s Lakers numbers in 2008).

Pau was at least even in rebounding and passing, he had higher efficiency and fewer turnovers.  His ORtg / DRtg compare favorably.  There’s a big gap in scoring, but there’s also a gigantic difference in usage (Davis’ is almost 50% higher).

[Moranis]

Hot take:  Pau Gasol on the Lakers and Anthony Davis were closer than KG vs. Davis

That’s not even a knock on Davis.  Gasol was that good. 

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Anthony+Davis&player_id1_select=Anthony+Davis&player_id1=davisan02&idx=bbr__players&p1yrfrom=2020&player_id2_hint=Pau+Gasol&player_id2_select=Pau+Gasol&player_id2=gasolpa01&idx=bbr__players&p2yrfrom=2009

(Note, the above uses Gasol’s stats from 2009, since basketball-reference sold out and ruined all of their tools.  I can’t link to just Gasol’s Lakers numbers in 2008).

Pau was at least even in rebounding and passing, he had higher efficiency and fewer turnovers.  His ORtg / DRtg compare favorably.  There’s a big gap in scoring, but there’s also a gigantic difference in usage (Davis’ is almost 50% higher).

Gasol was better in 09 than he was in 08, but even then all of the advanced metrics favor Davis and some of them favor Davis pretty significantly, you know things like BPM, VORP, WS, efficiencies (especially the defensive ones), etc.  Gasol was a fine player (and I think he should have been the Finals MVP in 10), but he was never anywhere close to a top 5 player in the league, something Davis actually is.