Bill Simmons says 2020 Lakers would beat 2008 Celtics

[KGs Knee]

Please don't forget...







Leon "Pimpin" Powe

Dude had a HUGE game for us Game 2 Finals 2007-08...21 points IIRC.

Oh man, who didn't love them some Powe Pimpin' back in the day!?!?

That man could never be accused of not leaving it all out on the court.

[SparzWizard]

Please don't forget...







Leon "Pimpin" Powe

Dude had a HUGE game for us Game 2 Finals 2007-08...21 points IIRC.

Oh man, who didn't love them some Powe Pimpin' back in the day!?!?

That man could never be accused of not leaving it all out on the court.

If he stayed healthy in The 08-09 year, we'd beat Orlando. Powe was huge

[Somebody]

I suspect that KG would have Davis begging for his mommy. There isn’t a defender playing today who holds a candle to KG.  Hell, I took Giannis in the Historic Draft, and his defense can’t compare to KG’s.  Davis has never seen anything like 2008 KG.

Size + mobility + instincts / BBIQ + intensity + dirtyness. The guy was the total defensive package.

Hot take:  if KG did nothing on offense other than pass, set screens, and score off of putbacks, he’d still be a top five player in the NBA.

Wish you made that clear during the draft , but yeah I absolutely agree with you that Garnett's off-ball game + his defence is still an MVP calibre player.

[Moranis]

I suspect that KG would have Davis begging for his mommy.  There isn’t a defender playing today who holds a candle to KG.  Hell, I took Giannis in the Historic Draft, and his defense can’t compare to KG’s.  Davis has never seen anything like 2008 KG.

Size + mobility + instincts / BBIQ + intensity + dirtyness. The guy was the total defensive package.

Hot take:  if KG did nothing on offense other than pass, set screens, and score off of putbacks, he’d still be a top five player in the NBA.

I know lol that's why I'm trying to get clarification from Moranis.

I know he is an ardent LeBron supporter (and for good reason) but I cannot see how they'd compete with that 07-08 BOS team - especially that BENCH.....

Leon (Tha Show) Powe
Glen Davis
PJ Brown
Posey - LeBron defender
TA - can defend LeBron. Didn''t really come into his prime defensively until MEM days but STILL a good player in BOS

Eddie House
Sam I am
Scott Pollard
Scal

That bench grinds 2020 LAL to a halt.

My reasoning is in the thread, but the easiest answer is LBJ and AD are the two best players in the series, and that will win you a playoff series like 95% of the time.  As for the bench argument, if you put Bradley back on the Lakers, the Lakers don't exactly have a weak bench (the starting 5 before the bubble was essentially Bradley, Green, James, Davis, and McGee).  So with Bradley the Lakers bench is Rondo, KCP, Kuzma, Morris, and Howard not to mention Jared Dudley, Quinn Cook, and Dion Waiters or JR Smith (one isn't on the team if Bradley is). Even without Bradley, the Lakers still had a pretty solid bench.  That is one of the reasons they could play the matchups so well and cruised through the playoffs.  It is why someone like Dwight Howard barely played against Houston and Miami, but played quite a bit against Portland and Denver.

At the end of the day, top end talent wins playoffs series and when your team has the two best players in the series, you are going to win the vast majority of the time.  History tells us that.

[gouki88]

I suspect that KG would have Davis begging for his mommy.  There isn’t a defender playing today who holds a candle to KG.  Hell, I took Giannis in the Historic Draft, and his defense can’t compare to KG’s.  Davis has never seen anything like 2008 KG.

Size + mobility + instincts / BBIQ + intensity + dirtyness. The guy was the total defensive package.

Hot take:  if KG did nothing on offense other than pass, set screens, and score off of putbacks, he’d still be a top five player in the NBA.

I know lol that's why I'm trying to get clarification from Moranis.

I know he is an ardent LeBron supporter (and for good reason) but I cannot see how they'd compete with that 07-08 BOS team - especially that BENCH.....

Leon (Tha Show) Powe
Glen Davis
PJ Brown
Posey - LeBron defender
TA - can defend LeBron. Didn''t really come into his prime defensively until MEM days but STILL a good player in BOS

Eddie House
Sam I am
Scott Pollard
Scal

That bench grinds 2020 LAL to a halt.

My reasoning is in the thread, but the easiest answer is LBJ and AD are the two best players in the series, and that will win you a playoff series like 95% of the time.

At the end of the day, top end talent wins playoffs series and when your team has the two best players in the series, you are going to win the vast majority of the time.  History tells us that.

Nothing separates KG and AD. KG was superior defensively, as a rebounder and as a passer, AD is the superior scorer and shooter. LBJ might have an edge, but KG and AD are 2a and 2b.

Can go through and dig up dozens of examples of teams with the best player losing series'.

Then there are 2 more All-Star calibre players on the Celtics whereas the Lakers have post-prime Rondo and ... Dwight? KCP? Give me a break.

[Moranis]

I suspect that KG would have Davis begging for his mommy.  There isn’t a defender playing today who holds a candle to KG.  Hell, I took Giannis in the Historic Draft, and his defense can’t compare to KG’s.  Davis has never seen anything like 2008 KG.

Size + mobility + instincts / BBIQ + intensity + dirtyness. The guy was the total defensive package.

Hot take:  if KG did nothing on offense other than pass, set screens, and score off of putbacks, he’d still be a top five player in the NBA.

I know lol that's why I'm trying to get clarification from Moranis.

I know he is an ardent LeBron supporter (and for good reason) but I cannot see how they'd compete with that 07-08 BOS team - especially that BENCH.....

Leon (Tha Show) Powe
Glen Davis
PJ Brown
Posey - LeBron defender
TA - can defend LeBron. Didn''t really come into his prime defensively until MEM days but STILL a good player in BOS

Eddie House
Sam I am
Scott Pollard
Scal

That bench grinds 2020 LAL to a halt.

My reasoning is in the thread, but the easiest answer is LBJ and AD are the two best players in the series, and that will win you a playoff series like 95% of the time.

At the end of the day, top end talent wins playoffs series and when your team has the two best players in the series, you are going to win the vast majority of the time.  History tells us that.

Nothing separates KG and AD. KG was superior defensively, as a rebounder and as a passer, AD is the superior scorer and shooter. LBJ might have an edge, but KG and AD are 2a and 2b.

Can go through and dig up dozens of examples of teams with the best player losing series'.

Then there are 2 more All-Star calibre players on the Celtics whereas the Lakers have post-prime Rondo and ... Dwight? KCP? Give me a break.

Rondo was no where near an all star player in 2008.  He was a 10/4/5 2nd year role player.  He made great strides in both his 3rd and 4th seasons, which you know is pretty common (2010 his 4th year was his 1st all star appearance).  In fact per 36 he was statistically very similar between this year and 2008 though was obviously better able to play more minutes as the younger man and was a bit more efficient.

The best player loses series all the time (I think I counted 3 times this past season alone - Bucks, Clippers, and arguably Sixers), but it is far more rare for the best player to lose when the 3rd best player is also on his team (Clippers also fit that bill this year as it would be hard to make the case that Murray was better than Georgy - Bucks may also though I'd put Butler and Bam ahead of Middleton it is at least arguable).  That obviously happens more frequently than the 2 best players on a team losing, but it isn't nearly as common as people would think because the reality is top end talent is what historically drives playoff series victories. 

KG was obviously a great player that year (earned that top 3 MVP finish), but he was in year 13 and 31 and had started his decline.  He missed as many games that year as he had in the 5 previous seasons combined, his minutes were way down, etc.  Obviously some of that is going from a crap team to a great one (though Pierce and Allen were still in the 36 mpg range not under 33 like KG).  As for rebounding, by then KG had lost his advantage and him and AD were pretty similar rebounders.  10.1 vs 9.7 per 36.  Of course per 36, the year before AD was at 13.1 which is the career best mark for either AD or KG (4 seasons prior KG hit his best at 12.8.  AD joining a guy like Lebron on a team with McGee and Howard really hurt his rebounding.  KG is obviously a better passer, though it isn't like AD is a bad passer.  They are both great defenders, KG was stronger, but AD was far more athletic (at this point in KG's career) and as you indicate AD is a much better scorer and shooter (I mean AD's career TS% average is basically KG's career best season, doing so on a much higher volume).

As I've consistently said in this thread they are pretty close together, but Lebron is clearly the best player and like it or not that stuff matters.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Bill Simmons also thought James Young was a great draft pick.

[Roy H.]

I suspect that KG would have Davis begging for his mommy.  There isn’t a defender playing today who holds a candle to KG.  Hell, I took Giannis in the Historic Draft, and his defense can’t compare to KG’s.  Davis has never seen anything like 2008 KG.

Size + mobility + instincts / BBIQ + intensity + dirtyness. The guy was the total defensive package.

Hot take:  if KG did nothing on offense other than pass, set screens, and score off of putbacks, he’d still be a top five player in the NBA.

I know lol that's why I'm trying to get clarification from Moranis.

I know he is an ardent LeBron supporter (and for good reason) but I cannot see how they'd compete with that 07-08 BOS team - especially that BENCH.....

Leon (Tha Show) Powe
Glen Davis
PJ Brown
Posey - LeBron defender
TA - can defend LeBron. Didn''t really come into his prime defensively until MEM days but STILL a good player in BOS

Eddie House
Sam I am
Scott Pollard
Scal

That bench grinds 2020 LAL to a halt.

My reasoning is in the thread, but the easiest answer is LBJ and AD are the two best players in the series, and that will win you a playoff series like 95% of the time.

At the end of the day, top end talent wins playoffs series and when your team has the two best players in the series, you are going to win the vast majority of the time.  History tells us that.

Nothing separates KG and AD. KG was superior defensively, as a rebounder and as a passer, AD is the superior scorer and shooter. LBJ might have an edge, but KG and AD are 2a and 2b.

Can go through and dig up dozens of examples of teams with the best player losing series'.

Then there are 2 more All-Star calibre players on the Celtics whereas the Lakers have post-prime Rondo and ... Dwight? KCP? Give me a break.

I think there’s separation.  We don’t win a title in 2008 with Anthony Davis. KG was simply better.

Rondo was no where near an all star player in 2008.

Let you other all stars he was referring to were Pierce and Allen.

[gouki88]

I suspect that KG would have Davis begging for his mommy.  There isn’t a defender playing today who holds a candle to KG.  Hell, I took Giannis in the Historic Draft, and his defense can’t compare to KG’s.  Davis has never seen anything like 2008 KG.

Size + mobility + instincts / BBIQ + intensity + dirtyness. The guy was the total defensive package.

Hot take:  if KG did nothing on offense other than pass, set screens, and score off of putbacks, he’d still be a top five player in the NBA.

I know lol that's why I'm trying to get clarification from Moranis.

I know he is an ardent LeBron supporter (and for good reason) but I cannot see how they'd compete with that 07-08 BOS team - especially that BENCH.....

Leon (Tha Show) Powe
Glen Davis
PJ Brown
Posey - LeBron defender
TA - can defend LeBron. Didn''t really come into his prime defensively until MEM days but STILL a good player in BOS

Eddie House
Sam I am
Scott Pollard
Scal

That bench grinds 2020 LAL to a halt.

My reasoning is in the thread, but the easiest answer is LBJ and AD are the two best players in the series, and that will win you a playoff series like 95% of the time.

At the end of the day, top end talent wins playoffs series and when your team has the two best players in the series, you are going to win the vast majority of the time.  History tells us that.

Nothing separates KG and AD. KG was superior defensively, as a rebounder and as a passer, AD is the superior scorer and shooter. LBJ might have an edge, but KG and AD are 2a and 2b.

Can go through and dig up dozens of examples of teams with the best player losing series'.

Then there are 2 more All-Star calibre players on the Celtics whereas the Lakers have post-prime Rondo and ... Dwight? KCP? Give me a break.

I think there’s separation.  We don’t win a title in 2008 with Anthony Davis. KG was simply better.

Rondo was no where near an all star player in 2008.

Let you other all stars he was referring to were Pierce and Allen.

While I agree, I don't think there's any way to convince Moranis of that, so I settled for equal. KG was the 2nd best player in the league that year IMO.

Exactly. Thought it was obvious I was referring to the three All-Stars we had that year

[mobilija]

FWIW...
Here in CelticsBlog in 2020 Historical Draft of the 2000’s KG went 2nd and AD 15th

2019 Alltime Historical Draft KG 14th and AD 35th

Those seem like large gaps...sure there some variation if ur picking specific years for each player but...not that significant.

Lebron
KG
AD
Pierce
Allen
2008 Rondo
2020 Rondo (this one arguable but very close. I’ll take youth and energy over whatever wisdom Rondo gained in 12 years. Plus anything from 2008!has to be better than what 2020 has given us  )
Howard
Perk
Then....it gets murky but I’m taking most players on the Celtics bench (Posey, PJ Brown, Cassel, even House) over the Lakers 5th starter KCP. Maybe Kuzma can slide in there somewhere but I think 2008 Celtics 6-10 is a superior playoff force to 2020 Lakers 5-10.

2020 Lakers have best player but 2008 Celtics have 4 of the next 5 most talented players including 2nd best overall. And it just gets worse for the Lakers as you move deeper into the starters and the bench.

[KGs Knee]

The idea that Anthony Davis in any year of his career was equal to 2008 KG is preposterous.  2008 KG was still probably the 2nd best defensive player of all-time.

[Roy H.]

Yeah, rankings wise I’d go:

1. Lebron
2. KG
3. Davis
4. Pierce
5. Ray
6. Rondo - 2008
7. Posey
8. Rondo - 2020
9. Perk

I think there’s a decent gap between the two Rondos.  In 2008, he played defense, and played it extremely well. 

Beyond rankings, though, there’s the difference between the teams as a unit.

2008 Celtics: Def. Rtg. 98.9; Off. Rtg. 110.2

2020 Lakers: DRtg: 106.3, ORtg. 112.0

The Celtics were just much more dominant.  And, as mentioned above, they played a younger, more athletic Lebron and limited him.  The counting numbers were there, but he shot 35.5% FG% / 23.1% 3PT% and had 5.3 turnovers per game.  He’s a smarter player now, but his defense back then was better.

Our defense was amazing.  We went up against a two-headed monster of a team (with Odom being a head and shoulders better third option than anything 2020 has) and shut them down.

[Moranis]

Looking at the regular season and making projections for a LeBron team isn't very accurate.  It isn't a secret he coasts through large chunks of the regular season, but come playoff time he always locks it in, just as he did this year.  And it isn't just LeBron that is a fairly recent trend, which is why sites like 538 can do a decent job predicting the regular season but a terrible job projecting the post season.  The stats just don't correlate when the players are truly locked in.  The Clippers tried this this year and failed.  The Bucks never really had Giannis play heavy minutes and he couldn't ramp up either so it doesn't always work, but for LeBron it does just as it did for the Warriors with Durant.  The C's that year were on a mission all season long and played like it all season long so of course their drtg and ortg were great.

KG was on the downside.  His last 1st Team All NBA before that season was 2004. He was on the 2nd Team in 05, didnt make a team in 06, and was 3rd team in 07 and he was fully healthy those years. 08 was his last all NBA team (though obviously was injured in 09). He got a huge boost for anchoring the C's defense on the best team in the league, but statistically he wasn't there.  It was clear he had been losing steps for years which is why the Wolves were so bad his last couple seasons there. The 2nd best player in the league doesn't go 31-45 and 32-44 in consecutive seasons. 08 was a magical season, but as champions go that team isn't among the best.  The 20 Lakers aren't either, but I do believe they would win a series between those teams.

And I do think it matters a bit on the rules on some level. If the series was today, Perk would barely have played (like Dwight and JaVale). If it was back then, Dwight and Javale would have played a much greater role.  I think KG would have a more difficult time guarding AD with the faster pace 3 point oriented game of today, while conversely AD would struggle a lot more in the slower inside out offense of the last decade.  Pierce, Allen, and James would have been fine in any period.

[SparzWizard]

Bill Simmons also thought James Young was a great draft pick.

Ahahaha I remember that one time, "We're going smart and young!" and did that little gesture on screen when they were drafted.

[gouki88]

KG was on the downside.  His last 1st Team All NBA before that season was 2004. He was on the 2nd Team in 05, didnt make a team in 06, and was 3rd team in 07 and he was fully healthy those years. 08 was his last all NBA team (though obviously was injured in 09). He got a huge boost for anchoring the C's defense on the best team in the league, but statistically he wasn't there.  It was clear he had been losing steps for years which is why the Wolves were so bad his last couple seasons there. The 2nd best player in the league doesn't go 31-45 and 32-44 in consecutive seasons. 08 was a magical season, but as champions go that team isn't among the best.  The 20 Lakers aren't either, but I do believe they would win a series between those teams.

This argument is beyond fallacious, my god.