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Author Topic: NFL proposes discrimination against teams that hire white coaches  (Read 2216 times)

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Re: NFL proposes discrimination against teams that hire white coaches
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2020, 09:13:18 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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Sorry just having a hard time wrapping my head around this...

In the event there ARE no qualified (and ready) minority candidates out there just start grooming them NOW...

Grab Ezekiel Elliot...Dak...Russell Wilson, etc, etc, etc...pull them aside and talk to them and get them in the pipeline to COACH or GM one day...

It's not hard.

Vast majority of these HUGE offensive linemen....cornerbacks...these young dudes come out of college with degrees in VARIOUS fields...learned to lead in their communities AND on campus...you telling me they can't lead a football team or put one together?

Do you think Todd Bowles, Eric Bienemy, Mike Tomlin, Darren Sproles weíre trained on the job during their playing careers? Or any of the white coaches for that matter during their playing careers?  (At least the ones that did play)

A lot of this is expressing a desire to coach, putting in the work to learn and do it, and also knowing the right people to get you an opportunity.

Iím not saying the NFL doesnít have a demographic problem, but can you provide any evidence that minority coaches are actively being denied opportunities in the NFL?  Perhaps a couple specific examples?

You can AT LEAST drop the info in their ears...of course they'd focus on playing for the time being.

If they express a desire, grab them right as their playing time is over and give them an opportunity.

And the only evidence I need is the fact that the ESPN article exists and Mr. Goodell even signed off on it.

Quote
A league source told ESPN's Dan Graziano that commissioner Roger Goodell is in favor of the proposal, with the diversity committee trying to incentivize teams with a stronger plan. Three of the past 20 NFL head-coaching hires were minorities, while two of the NFL's 32 general managers are minorities.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29180225/nfl-proposal-improve-draft-picks-minority-hires

Sure, plenty of info can be dropped in their ears.  Do you think minority former players are being denied jobs as assistants, position coaches and coordinators??  The two hottest coaching candidates that teams were gonna be after this off-season were minorities!  and former players!  there are plenty of former players that are assistant coaches and coordinators and also team executives.  Sean McVay was a very young hire for a head coach but he still spent years as a position coach and a coordinator.


and OF COURSE Roger Goodell signed off on this, the league has been in a PR nightmare since all the National Anthem stuff, can you imagine the response if he didnt sign off??  Whenever youre under the scrutiny of the public eye, perception means just as much, if not MORE than truth

I'm hoping that something  more substantive comes out of this.

For ME - the existence of this article means there's a problem.

Im not trying to come off as ignorant in this thread, even though Im sure to some I have.  At the end of the day, Im not saying more minority coaches dont need to be given opportunities to coach and GM in the NFL.  Im saying there are a lot more factors at play here than just 'people refuse to hire minority coaches and theyre being held back' and this rule proposal makes it seem as clear cut as 'just these racist owners just wont hire a minority'.   I would hope though that we can all agree that this rule proposal is completely ridiculous no matter what side youre on (if you dont believe me, there already articles out saying this rule could actually lead to less minority coaches being hired).

I know we can agree on one thing though......Go Skins :)


as for the part I bolded above.  Thats a dangerous way to form your opinions.

Here's the problem with this rule and it's the same things that happens in the private sector when affirmative action was instituted. The obvious reaction that white men with all the power have when they feel that power is threatened is to push back and say "on principal, on protest we won't hire any people of color, qualified or not" --which perpetuates the same situation as before. And every old predictable, timeless rebuttal is trotted out.

"You won't be taken seriously because you didn't earn it"
"you're penalizing us because we like who we like"
"communism"
"you're not the boss of me!! I do what I want!!"
"I love black people. I employ lots of them. And my sister's best friend's former roommate was black so...yeah."

and let's not forget my all time favorite...

"I don't see color."

well thats not what i was referencing when I mentioned that people are already saying this rule could lead to less minority coaches being hired.

"If a minority assistant left to become a coordinator elsewhere, his former club would receive a fifth-round compensatory pick. And if a person of color leaves to become a head coach or general manager, his previous team would receive a third-round compensatory pick."

https://www.nfl.com/news/owners-to-vote-on-resolution-to-incentivize-minority-hc-gm-hires

Quoted above is what Im talking regarding this could lead to less minority coaches being hired.

Think about it, if youre the Redskins, would you sign a minority coach to a contract that currently works on the Cowboys, or any other division rival, if you know youre going to have to be giving your competitor a 3rd round pick?  If Im the Redskins and Im loooking at two very qualified coaches, one is a minority defensive coordinator on the philadelphia eagles and the other is a white offensive coordinator on the LA Rams, I would have to believe a major factor in the decision is that hiring one of these wont give your rival a compensatory pick.

TP

This is smart analysis and it makes sense. I get the flaw in the rule. The spirit it represents though I also get. The NFL has had decades to make fair and equitable decisions regarding personnel. But as usual, you often have to force people's hand to get them to do the right thing because the owners and GMs have proven again and again that they will not do it. And inevitably people of color are finally shoehorned into a situation where they have to succeed in way less than favorable conditions. If they succeed, they will get less of the credit and they will get most of the blame if they fail.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: NFL proposes discrimination against teams that hire white coaches
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2020, 10:42:44 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Sorry just having a hard time wrapping my head around this...

In the event there ARE no qualified (and ready) minority candidates out there just start grooming them NOW...

Grab Ezekiel Elliot...Dak...Russell Wilson, etc, etc, etc...pull them aside and talk to them and get them in the pipeline to COACH or GM one day...

It's not hard.

Vast majority of these HUGE offensive linemen....cornerbacks...these young dudes come out of college with degrees in VARIOUS fields...learned to lead in their communities AND on campus...you telling me they can't lead a football team or put one together?

Do you think Todd Bowles, Eric Bienemy, Mike Tomlin, Darren Sproles weíre trained on the job during their playing careers? Or any of the white coaches for that matter during their playing careers?  (At least the ones that did play)

A lot of this is expressing a desire to coach, putting in the work to learn and do it, and also knowing the right people to get you an opportunity.

Iím not saying the NFL doesnít have a demographic problem, but can you provide any evidence that minority coaches are actively being denied opportunities in the NFL?  Perhaps a couple specific examples?

You can AT LEAST drop the info in their ears...of course they'd focus on playing for the time being.

If they express a desire, grab them right as their playing time is over and give them an opportunity.

And the only evidence I need is the fact that the ESPN article exists and Mr. Goodell even signed off on it.

Quote
A league source told ESPN's Dan Graziano that commissioner Roger Goodell is in favor of the proposal, with the diversity committee trying to incentivize teams with a stronger plan. Three of the past 20 NFL head-coaching hires were minorities, while two of the NFL's 32 general managers are minorities.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29180225/nfl-proposal-improve-draft-picks-minority-hires

Sure, plenty of info can be dropped in their ears.  Do you think minority former players are being denied jobs as assistants, position coaches and coordinators??  The two hottest coaching candidates that teams were gonna be after this off-season were minorities!  and former players!  there are plenty of former players that are assistant coaches and coordinators and also team executives.  Sean McVay was a very young hire for a head coach but he still spent years as a position coach and a coordinator.


and OF COURSE Roger Goodell signed off on this, the league has been in a PR nightmare since all the National Anthem stuff, can you imagine the response if he didnt sign off??  Whenever youre under the scrutiny of the public eye, perception means just as much, if not MORE than truth

I'm hoping that something  more substantive comes out of this.

For ME - the existence of this article means there's a problem.

Im not trying to come off as ignorant in this thread, even though Im sure to some I have.  At the end of the day, Im not saying more minority coaches dont need to be given opportunities to coach and GM in the NFL.  Im saying there are a lot more factors at play here than just 'people refuse to hire minority coaches and theyre being held back' and this rule proposal makes it seem as clear cut as 'just these racist owners just wont hire a minority'.   I would hope though that we can all agree that this rule proposal is completely ridiculous no matter what side youre on (if you dont believe me, there already articles out saying this rule could actually lead to less minority coaches being hired).

I know we can agree on one thing though......Go Skins :)


as for the part I bolded above.  Thats a dangerous way to form your opinions.

Here's the problem with this rule and it's the same things that happens in the private sector when affirmative action was instituted. The obvious reaction that white men with all the power have when they feel that power is threatened is to push back and say "on principal, on protest we won't hire any people of color, qualified or not" --which perpetuates the same situation as before. And every old predictable, timeless rebuttal is trotted out.

"You won't be taken seriously because you didn't earn it"
"you're penalizing us because we like who we like"
"communism"
"you're not the boss of me!! I do what I want!!"
"I love black people. I employ lots of them. And my sister's best friend's former roommate was black so...yeah."

and let's not forget my all time favorite...

"I don't see color."

well thats not what i was referencing when I mentioned that people are already saying this rule could lead to less minority coaches being hired.

"If a minority assistant left to become a coordinator elsewhere, his former club would receive a fifth-round compensatory pick. And if a person of color leaves to become a head coach or general manager, his previous team would receive a third-round compensatory pick."

https://www.nfl.com/news/owners-to-vote-on-resolution-to-incentivize-minority-hc-gm-hires

Quoted above is what Im talking regarding this could lead to less minority coaches being hired.

Think about it, if youre the Redskins, would you sign a minority coach to a contract that currently works on the Cowboys, or any other division rival, if you know youre going to have to be giving your competitor a 3rd round pick?  If Im the Redskins and Im loooking at two very qualified coaches, one is a minority defensive coordinator on the philadelphia eagles and the other is a white offensive coordinator on the LA Rams, I would have to believe a major factor in the decision is that hiring one of these wont give your rival a compensatory pick.

TP

This is smart analysis and it makes sense. I get the flaw in the rule. The spirit it represents though I also get. The NFL has had decades to make fair and equitable decisions regarding personnel. But as usual, you often have to force people's hand to get them to do the right thing because the owners and GMs have proven again and again that they will not do it. And inevitably people of color are finally shoehorned into a situation where they have to succeed in way less than favorable conditions. If they succeed, they will get less of the credit and they will get most of the blame if they fail.
The Patriots gave the Jets a 1st round pick for Belichick.  I mean they gave one up, it was one of theirs that they exchanged and not just a gift from the league.  So what I'm saying is no team is not going to hire the coach they want because the team that the coach was on would get a 3rd round pick from the league, especially when you would get a better pick yourself.  And let's be real here, no two candidates are ever equal.  One is always rated higher than the other. 
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Re: NFL proposes discrimination against teams that hire white coaches
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2020, 01:55:57 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Quote
Jim Trotter
@JimTrotter_NFL
BREAKING: NFL owners have tabled the resolution to incentivize the hiring of minority coaches and general managers, per source.

Good.  There's got to be a better way to address this issue. 


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: NFL proposes discrimination against teams that hire white coaches
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2020, 04:28:35 PM »

Offline greg683x

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Sorry just having a hard time wrapping my head around this...

In the event there ARE no qualified (and ready) minority candidates out there just start grooming them NOW...

Grab Ezekiel Elliot...Dak...Russell Wilson, etc, etc, etc...pull them aside and talk to them and get them in the pipeline to COACH or GM one day...

It's not hard.

Vast majority of these HUGE offensive linemen....cornerbacks...these young dudes come out of college with degrees in VARIOUS fields...learned to lead in their communities AND on campus...you telling me they can't lead a football team or put one together?

Do you think Todd Bowles, Eric Bienemy, Mike Tomlin, Darren Sproles weíre trained on the job during their playing careers? Or any of the white coaches for that matter during their playing careers?  (At least the ones that did play)

A lot of this is expressing a desire to coach, putting in the work to learn and do it, and also knowing the right people to get you an opportunity.

Iím not saying the NFL doesnít have a demographic problem, but can you provide any evidence that minority coaches are actively being denied opportunities in the NFL?  Perhaps a couple specific examples?

You can AT LEAST drop the info in their ears...of course they'd focus on playing for the time being.

If they express a desire, grab them right as their playing time is over and give them an opportunity.

And the only evidence I need is the fact that the ESPN article exists and Mr. Goodell even signed off on it.

Quote
A league source told ESPN's Dan Graziano that commissioner Roger Goodell is in favor of the proposal, with the diversity committee trying to incentivize teams with a stronger plan. Three of the past 20 NFL head-coaching hires were minorities, while two of the NFL's 32 general managers are minorities.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29180225/nfl-proposal-improve-draft-picks-minority-hires

Sure, plenty of info can be dropped in their ears.  Do you think minority former players are being denied jobs as assistants, position coaches and coordinators??  The two hottest coaching candidates that teams were gonna be after this off-season were minorities!  and former players!  there are plenty of former players that are assistant coaches and coordinators and also team executives.  Sean McVay was a very young hire for a head coach but he still spent years as a position coach and a coordinator.


and OF COURSE Roger Goodell signed off on this, the league has been in a PR nightmare since all the National Anthem stuff, can you imagine the response if he didnt sign off??  Whenever youre under the scrutiny of the public eye, perception means just as much, if not MORE than truth

I'm hoping that something  more substantive comes out of this.

For ME - the existence of this article means there's a problem.

Im not trying to come off as ignorant in this thread, even though Im sure to some I have.  At the end of the day, Im not saying more minority coaches dont need to be given opportunities to coach and GM in the NFL.  Im saying there are a lot more factors at play here than just 'people refuse to hire minority coaches and theyre being held back' and this rule proposal makes it seem as clear cut as 'just these racist owners just wont hire a minority'.   I would hope though that we can all agree that this rule proposal is completely ridiculous no matter what side youre on (if you dont believe me, there already articles out saying this rule could actually lead to less minority coaches being hired).

I know we can agree on one thing though......Go Skins :)


as for the part I bolded above.  Thats a dangerous way to form your opinions.

Here's the problem with this rule and it's the same things that happens in the private sector when affirmative action was instituted. The obvious reaction that white men with all the power have when they feel that power is threatened is to push back and say "on principal, on protest we won't hire any people of color, qualified or not" --which perpetuates the same situation as before. And every old predictable, timeless rebuttal is trotted out.

"You won't be taken seriously because you didn't earn it"
"you're penalizing us because we like who we like"
"communism"
"you're not the boss of me!! I do what I want!!"
"I love black people. I employ lots of them. And my sister's best friend's former roommate was black so...yeah."

and let's not forget my all time favorite...

"I don't see color."

well thats not what i was referencing when I mentioned that people are already saying this rule could lead to less minority coaches being hired.

"If a minority assistant left to become a coordinator elsewhere, his former club would receive a fifth-round compensatory pick. And if a person of color leaves to become a head coach or general manager, his previous team would receive a third-round compensatory pick."

https://www.nfl.com/news/owners-to-vote-on-resolution-to-incentivize-minority-hc-gm-hires

Quoted above is what Im talking regarding this could lead to less minority coaches being hired.

Think about it, if youre the Redskins, would you sign a minority coach to a contract that currently works on the Cowboys, or any other division rival, if you know youre going to have to be giving your competitor a 3rd round pick?  If Im the Redskins and Im loooking at two very qualified coaches, one is a minority defensive coordinator on the philadelphia eagles and the other is a white offensive coordinator on the LA Rams, I would have to believe a major factor in the decision is that hiring one of these wont give your rival a compensatory pick.

TP

This is smart analysis and it makes sense. I get the flaw in the rule. The spirit it represents though I also get. The NFL has had decades to make fair and equitable decisions regarding personnel. But as usual, you often have to force people's hand to get them to do the right thing because the owners and GMs have proven again and again that they will not do it. And inevitably people of color are finally shoehorned into a situation where they have to succeed in way less than favorable conditions. If they succeed, they will get less of the credit and they will get most of the blame if they fail.
The Patriots gave the Jets a 1st round pick for Belichick.  I mean they gave one up, it was one of theirs that they exchanged and not just a gift from the league. So what I'm saying is no team is not going to hire the coach they want because the team that the coach was on would get a 3rd round pick from the league, especially when you would get a better pick yourself. And let's be real here, no two candidates are ever equal. One is always rated higher than the other.

Thats a pretty big sweeping generalization.  All candidates are never equal but they all have their pros and their cons, to say one gm wouldnt ever be torn between two candidates is a bit nuts, especially when you could have a team president, and other assistants in your ear about which they would choose.  you cant say the fact that one would deprive an arch rival of an additonal third round pick wouldnt factor into the equation.

Would it be a common occurrence, no definitely not, but the spirit of all this is to create avenues for more minority hires, not giving GMs a reason to give it a second thought
Greg

Re: NFL proposes discrimination against teams that hire white coaches
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2020, 08:20:29 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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So, I saw on Boomer and Gio this morning that evidently there is serious discussion about "adding more teeth" to the already existing Rooney Rule.

At the end of the day - no matter how the original proposal came off - I think the MAIN goal of this whole thing was to get serious discussion going.

What is a shame, though, is that it took THIS to get the ball moving in a positive direction.

Why is it that - after having a Black President and many other positive achievements in this country - does it STILL take extreme measures to "JUST" spur conversation?

Have we REALLY.....progressed?

Why is it that such measures must be taken oftentimes to "JUST" spur discussion?
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