Poll: Hayward Memphis pick for Drummond and Rose

[Fierce1]

Let's just take Vernon carey jr with the memphis pick. and keep gordon.

Vernon Carey will not be available if the Celts get the 14th pick.

The Memphis pick is looking like last year's Kings pick.

[nickagneta]

I have no doubt that Drummond would eat up a ton of boards for this team. He would be like a super charged Kanter who can pass and is more mobile defensively. On top of that he has a bit of vertical gravity that Kanter does not. Unfortunately I agree with many of the posters before me that I'm not sure he's worth 28 million. Also an issue is that he can opt out at the end of the year to explore the market and possibly get more (not sure he will.)

Let's assume that his cap hit is the same going forward, he would have to be one of our 3 most productive players on both sides of the ball for us to have a shot. The game is continuously trending towards players who are able to dynamically impact the game, and that isn't Drummond.

The argument is that we are in the same situation with Hayward, and while that's fair, would trading Hayward be worth the optics? We have just gotten over the league wide perception that free agents don't want to come here (regardless of the validity of that perception.) We also are giving up a swing of the bat in the back end of the lottery in a weak draft (that doesn't bother me as much.)

Long story short, I'm not sure Drummond is the dominant big man we want to hitch our horse to going forward.

Here's the thing, Hayward is damaged goods and he will most likely opt in next season at 34m.
That means the Celts' total salary will be closer to 140m.

If the Celts remove Hayward's contract, the Celts' total salary next season will be around 100m.

This is where swapping Hayward's contract for Drummond's contract helps the Celts.
Not only will it give us a chance to see how Drummond fits in with the Celts, it will also only cost the Celts around 29m next season if Drummond doesn't opt out.

Worst case scenario is Drummond doesn't fit in and he opts out.
That will put the Celts under the salary cap, which means the Celts will be able sign someone from the free-agent market.

I think gambling on Drummond for half a season and the playoffs is worth the risk.

Celts will never be able to sign Drummond as a free-agent if the Celts don't get him now.

The Celts will be able to address the need for a big man, in the summer of 2020, if the Celts have flexibility.

Celts will not have the cap flexibility if Hayward is still with the Celts next season.

The result will be having the same team this year for next year, plus the 2020 draft picks.

Not a good idea to wait until Hayward's contract is off the books, in 2021, to start building a championship team.

Are we really going to be under the cap? I assume with Tatum needing to be signed to a bigger contract, you lose all the “cap space”. But I’m no cap expert. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

Yes, and not really.

In a one on one trade of Hayward and Drummond, if Drummond decides to move on, and Kanter moves on and the Celtics don't bring back Theis and Semi and Green and they trade away all their draft picks for future picks that would give the team about $21.8 million with only

Kemba
Brown
Tatum
Smart
RWilliams
GWilliams
Edwards
Langford
Poirier

and the room exception of $4.9 million and vet min contracts to fill out the team.

Now if they keep the 3 picks reduce cap space by $5-7 million depending on where the Memphis, Milwaukee and Boston picks land but add in $2.7 million to the cap space because you are getting rid of the empty roster slot holds. (So total cut from above cap number is $2.3-4.3 million.

If they keep Theis, because, you need at the very least one guy that can slot in as a back up or starting big, reduce that cap space another $5 million.

If Tremont Waters is going to be signed then reduce the cap another $900000

What you end up with is a number not all that much higher than the non-tax payer MLE which you can have plus the bi annual exception and Hayward and Semi and Green, if you just don't make the trade.

You said the Celts are not contenders right now.
That's why you think Ainge will stand pat because it's after the season that Ainge should make trades.

But if Hayward remains then the Celts will basically have the same team from this season to next season.

As long as the core 5 remains intact, Ainge will not be able to do anything significant.

So we'll just waste another year and see the Celts exit in the playoffs again?

Trading Hayward now will open up more opportunities for the Celts.

Not sure what this response is to since I was discussing with Lilrip that the Celtics won't really have any more cap space flexibility whether Hayward is on the roster or not. He asked a question because he thought you were misleading him. I just gave him some facts is all.

What I'm saying is if the Celts don't move Hayward and stand pat, the Celts will be getting the same team for next season.

Moving Hayward now opens up more opportunities for the Celts in the summer, even if it's possible that the Celts might not get that big cap space because the Celts might still end up keeping Theis.

You already admitted that Brown and Tatum would be better. By just that, they won't be the same team next year.

Langford and the Williams boys will probably be better, too. Waters will be here full time. There might be a late lottery pick on the team as well. That makes the team a different team right there.

What I mean by the same team is the Celts will still end up having Theis and Kanter at Center.

The problem will still remain, the Celts will still need a big man.

Right now Drummond and Steven Adams are available.

Next season there might be no big man available.

And so it all comes back to the same stuff you have been carping on since the season started. I refuse to discuss that in any way any longer, Fierce.

[Who]

What I'm saying is if the Celts don't move Hayward and stand pat, the Celts will be getting the same team for next season.

Not necessarily. We got a lot of young guys who are still improving so internal development is a big factor that could change this team's outlook despite the roster not changing much.

Star youth - Tatum and Jaylen
Role player youth - Rob Williams, Carsen Edwards, Romeo Langford, Grant Williams

Rob Williams could become a Capela like figure for the team in another year's time (assuming he stay healthy). Edwards can be the new Eddie House and shore up the backup guard minutes alongside Smart. Grant Williams' role will depend on how good his outside shooting can get in order to play more PF minutes. Romeo Langford can give Boston a legit wing so they can keep those 3 wing lineups on the floor for more minutes while one of Hayward, Jaylen or Tatum rest on the bench.

Maybe 1-2 of those role player youths work out. Maybe none of them. But there is a good chance for improvement out of those guys and still lots of room for improvement with Tatum and Jaylen Brown. And with that - a chance for the team's prospects to improve.

Also a chance Boston could make a smaller free agency move and net a player like Willy Cauley Stein like Golden State did last summer on a budget move. Reinforce the center position that way. Not star talent but someone solid that has legit size. Or a smaller trade involving picks / young role player talent to net a solid center in a trade while keeping the 5 core members in tact (which I am by no means tied to ...)

I am just saying there is a lot of room for development & improvement next season without changing the core of the team.

I agree if the Celts didn't sign Kemba.

Hard to believe Ainge used words like development and improvement to lure Kemba to come to Boston.

I truly believe the Celts are in a win now situation.

They are in both. It is win now and keep winning 5+ years from now. They are trying to win now while keeping enough talent / flexibility to keep winning down the road.

-----------

One idea that I really dislike that I have seen on this site over the last few weeks and months is that the team isn't about winning a Championship now or in the near future but when Tatum & Jaylen hit their prime years aged 25-27 years old.

No way!

This team is far too close to winning a title right now to wait 3-5 years to go for it ... and what a waste of Kemba Walker!

You have this beautiful opportunity right now. Don't look so far forward into the future that you miss how good this team is right now & how close this team is to winning a Championship right now. You cannot take these moments for granted because you do not know what the future will bring. Guys might get hurt (like Hayward did). Guys might want to leave and play elsewhere. Who knows.

So many young teams of the future fall apart before the future ever gets there (OKC with Durant/Westbrook, Portland with Oden/Roy/Aldridge, Orlando with Shaq/Penny, Minny with KG/Marbury).

Gotta be open to taking chances & making that push when you have an opportunity like this Celtics team does right now - being so close to winning a Championship. You can't just let that pass by for sometime 3-5 years from now which may never come anyway.

[Fierce1]

I have no doubt that Drummond would eat up a ton of boards for this team. He would be like a super charged Kanter who can pass and is more mobile defensively. On top of that he has a bit of vertical gravity that Kanter does not. Unfortunately I agree with many of the posters before me that I'm not sure he's worth 28 million. Also an issue is that he can opt out at the end of the year to explore the market and possibly get more (not sure he will.)

Let's assume that his cap hit is the same going forward, he would have to be one of our 3 most productive players on both sides of the ball for us to have a shot. The game is continuously trending towards players who are able to dynamically impact the game, and that isn't Drummond.

The argument is that we are in the same situation with Hayward, and while that's fair, would trading Hayward be worth the optics? We have just gotten over the league wide perception that free agents don't want to come here (regardless of the validity of that perception.) We also are giving up a swing of the bat in the back end of the lottery in a weak draft (that doesn't bother me as much.)

Long story short, I'm not sure Drummond is the dominant big man we want to hitch our horse to going forward.

Here's the thing, Hayward is damaged goods and he will most likely opt in next season at 34m.
That means the Celts' total salary will be closer to 140m.

If the Celts remove Hayward's contract, the Celts' total salary next season will be around 100m.

This is where swapping Hayward's contract for Drummond's contract helps the Celts.
Not only will it give us a chance to see how Drummond fits in with the Celts, it will also only cost the Celts around 29m next season if Drummond doesn't opt out.

Worst case scenario is Drummond doesn't fit in and he opts out.
That will put the Celts under the salary cap, which means the Celts will be able sign someone from the free-agent market.

I think gambling on Drummond for half a season and the playoffs is worth the risk.

Celts will never be able to sign Drummond as a free-agent if the Celts don't get him now.

The Celts will be able to address the need for a big man, in the summer of 2020, if the Celts have flexibility.

Celts will not have the cap flexibility if Hayward is still with the Celts next season.

The result will be having the same team this year for next year, plus the 2020 draft picks.

Not a good idea to wait until Hayward's contract is off the books, in 2021, to start building a championship team.

Are we really going to be under the cap? I assume with Tatum needing to be signed to a bigger contract, you lose all the “cap space”. But I’m no cap expert. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

Yes, and not really.

In a one on one trade of Hayward and Drummond, if Drummond decides to move on, and Kanter moves on and the Celtics don't bring back Theis and Semi and Green and they trade away all their draft picks for future picks that would give the team about $21.8 million with only

Kemba
Brown
Tatum
Smart
RWilliams
GWilliams
Edwards
Langford
Poirier

and the room exception of $4.9 million and vet min contracts to fill out the team.

Now if they keep the 3 picks reduce cap space by $5-7 million depending on where the Memphis, Milwaukee and Boston picks land but add in $2.7 million to the cap space because you are getting rid of the empty roster slot holds. (So total cut from above cap number is $2.3-4.3 million.

If they keep Theis, because, you need at the very least one guy that can slot in as a back up or starting big, reduce that cap space another $5 million.

If Tremont Waters is going to be signed then reduce the cap another $900000

What you end up with is a number not all that much higher than the non-tax payer MLE which you can have plus the bi annual exception and Hayward and Semi and Green, if you just don't make the trade.

You said the Celts are not contenders right now.
That's why you think Ainge will stand pat because it's after the season that Ainge should make trades.

But if Hayward remains then the Celts will basically have the same team from this season to next season.

As long as the core 5 remains intact, Ainge will not be able to do anything significant.

So we'll just waste another year and see the Celts exit in the playoffs again?

Trading Hayward now will open up more opportunities for the Celts.

Not sure what this response is to since I was discussing with Lilrip that the Celtics won't really have any more cap space flexibility whether Hayward is on the roster or not. He asked a question because he thought you were misleading him. I just gave him some facts is all.

What I'm saying is if the Celts don't move Hayward and stand pat, the Celts will be getting the same team for next season.

Moving Hayward now opens up more opportunities for the Celts in the summer, even if it's possible that the Celts might not get that big cap space because the Celts might still end up keeping Theis.

You already admitted that Brown and Tatum would be better. By just that, they won't be the same team next year.

Langford and the Williams boys will probably be better, too. Waters will be here full time. There might be a late lottery pick on the team as well. That makes the team a different team right there.

What I mean by the same team is the Celts will still end up having Theis and Kanter at Center.

The problem will still remain, the Celts will still need a big man.

Right now Drummond and Steven Adams are available.

Next season there might be no big man available.

And so it all comes back to the same stuff you have been carping on since the season started. I refuse to discuss that in any way any longer, Fierce.

But everything changes if Ainge makes a move on or before the trade deadline, right?

[Fierce1]

What I'm saying is if the Celts don't move Hayward and stand pat, the Celts will be getting the same team for next season.

Not necessarily. We got a lot of young guys who are still improving so internal development is a big factor that could change this team's outlook despite the roster not changing much.

Star youth - Tatum and Jaylen
Role player youth - Rob Williams, Carsen Edwards, Romeo Langford, Grant Williams

Rob Williams could become a Capela like figure for the team in another year's time (assuming he stay healthy). Edwards can be the new Eddie House and shore up the backup guard minutes alongside Smart. Grant Williams' role will depend on how good his outside shooting can get in order to play more PF minutes. Romeo Langford can give Boston a legit wing so they can keep those 3 wing lineups on the floor for more minutes while one of Hayward, Jaylen or Tatum rest on the bench.

Maybe 1-2 of those role player youths work out. Maybe none of them. But there is a good chance for improvement out of those guys and still lots of room for improvement with Tatum and Jaylen Brown. And with that - a chance for the team's prospects to improve.

Also a chance Boston could make a smaller free agency move and net a player like Willy Cauley Stein like Golden State did last summer on a budget move. Reinforce the center position that way. Not star talent but someone solid that has legit size. Or a smaller trade involving picks / young role player talent to net a solid center in a trade while keeping the 5 core members in tact (which I am by no means tied to ...)

I am just saying there is a lot of room for development & improvement next season without changing the core of the team.

I agree if the Celts didn't sign Kemba.

Hard to believe Ainge used words like development and improvement to lure Kemba to come to Boston.

I truly believe the Celts are in a win now situation.

They are in both. It is win now and keep winning 5+ years from now. They are trying to win now while keeping enough talent / flexibility to keep winning down the road.

-----------

One idea that I really dislike that I have seen on this site over the last few weeks and months is that the team isn't about winning a Championship now or in the near future but when Tatum & Jaylen hit their prime years aged 25-27 years old.

No way!

This team is far too close to winning a title right now to wait 3-5 years to go for it ... and what a waste of Kemba Walker!

You have this beautiful opportunity right now. Don't look so far forward into the future that you miss how good this team is right now & how close this team is to winning a Championship right now. You cannot take these moments for granted because you do not know what the future will bring. Guys might get hurt (like Hayward did). Guys might want to leave and play elsewhere. Who knows.

So many young teams of the future fall apart before the future ever gets there (OKC with Durant/Westbrook, Portland with Oden/Roy/Aldridge, Orlando with Shaq/Penny, Minny with KG/Marbury).

Gotta be open to taking chances & making that push when you have an opportunity like this Celtics team does right now - being so close to winning a Championship. You can't just let that pass by for sometime 3-5 years from now which may never come anyway.

I absolutely agree with you on that one.

The Celts definitely have a shot at winning the Finals this season because of all the player movement that happened last summer.

I think the only real obstacle for the Celtics is the Bucks.

If the Celts can get past the Bucks, I think the Celts will have an easier time winning in the Finals.

Right now the contenders in the west are not established yet.

[Donoghus]

Drummond doesn't scare anyone about how well he attacks the paint. He's not an amazing post player , or an willing/effective roll man most of the time. He's a mediocre finisher at the rim and a bad foul shooter, also very turnover prone.

The only thing he does that adds value on offense is offensive rebound, I have great news for you the Celtics employ Enes Kanter who is even better than Drummond at that.

And again on defense Giannis/Embiid just dunk him into the basket, without regard for human life as Marc Jackson would say.

If Kanter is so good then why can't he average 20 minutes per game, at the very least.

Kanter is not even playing half of 48 minutes.

Every team that Kanter has played for in the past gave up on him.

And Brad Stevens doesn't play players who are bad on defense.

Because they don't need him to play more than 20 min/game when they also have Theis or the ability to throw an effective small ball lineup out there.

Simply not true.

Reason why Kanter is playing the lowest minutes per game, since his 2nd year in 2012-13, is because he's so bad on defense.

Brad Stevens yanks him every time he misses a defensive assignment or he lets the opposing player get an easy bucket.

If you can't grasp the concept of team depth & situational basketball, then there's no reason to continue to bang my head arguing with you over utter nonsense.

Keep spamming across threads the same stuff, though.  That'll end well.

Spamming?

Do you have proof that I've been spamming the same stuff across multiple threads?

Why are you accusing me of something that I didn't do?

You can check for yourself how many threads I posted in the last few days and see what I posted.

See that little NGT next to your name? That's called a history.  That little two week vacation you took awhile back? That's some proof.  The fact that you have history of essentially coming in & hijacking/spamming threads and beating a dead horse with the same point over & over & over again?  That's called a track record.

[Rondo9]

What does NGT stand for?

[nickagneta]

Drummond doesn't scare anyone about how well he attacks the paint. He's not an amazing post player , or an willing/effective roll man most of the time. He's a mediocre finisher at the rim and a bad foul shooter, also very turnover prone.

The only thing he does that adds value on offense is offensive rebound, I have great news for you the Celtics employ Enes Kanter who is even better than Drummond at that.

And again on defense Giannis/Embiid just dunk him into the basket, without regard for human life as Marc Jackson would say.

If Kanter is so good then why can't he average 20 minutes per game, at the very least.

Kanter is not even playing half of 48 minutes.

Every team that Kanter has played for in the past gave up on him.

And Brad Stevens doesn't play players who are bad on defense.

Because they don't need him to play more than 20 min/game when they also have Theis or the ability to throw an effective small ball lineup out there.

Simply not true.

Reason why Kanter is playing the lowest minutes per game, since his 2nd year in 2012-13, is because he's so bad on defense.

Brad Stevens yanks him every time he misses a defensive assignment or he lets the opposing player get an easy bucket.

If you can't grasp the concept of team depth & situational basketball, then there's no reason to continue to bang my head arguing with you over utter nonsense.

Keep spamming across threads the same stuff, though.  That'll end well.

Spamming?

Do you have proof that I've been spamming the same stuff across multiple threads?

Why are you accusing me of something that I didn't do?

You can check for yourself how many threads I posted in the last few days and see what I posted.

See that little NGT next to your name? That's called a history.  That little two week vacation you took awhile back? That's some proof.  The fact that you have history of essentially coming in & hijacking/spamming threads and beating a dead horse with the same point over & over & over again?  That's called a track record.

And a quick glance through your posting history shows that the hijacking/spamming of threads and beating a dead horse with the same point over & over & over again, can be found happening as recently as the 18th and 19th of January. That's called proof.

[nickagneta]

What does NGT stand for?

No Game Threads

[greg683x]

ive been tempted to throw my .02 in several times, but I cant.  Im frustrated just reading this thread.

the only thing more tiring than walking in circles, is talking in circles.

[MichiganAdam]

Let's just take Vernon carey jr with the memphis pick. and keep gordon.

Vernon Carey will not be available if the Celts get the 14th pick.

The Memphis pick is looking like last year's Kings pick.

Which is exactly why I wanted to trade the pick last year.  Now we end up with a late lottery pick again.  Not worthless, but worth much less than last year.

[Fafnir]

Wait wait wait, you think DeMar freaking benched in the playoffs DeRozen was better than Kyle Lowry? Okay I'm done here.

Benched in the playoffs?

DeRozan averaged 36.2 minutes per game in the 1st round of the 2018 playoffs.

In the 2nd round against the Cavs, where the Raptors got swept, DeRozan averaged 34 minutes per game.

DeRozan averaged 35.4 minutes per game in the playoffs that year.
35 minutes a game is being benched?

He got benched in game 3 against the Cavs in the eastern semi-finals, the last competitive minutes of basketball the Raptors played until they traded him and fired Dwyane Casey.

That entire series the Raptors got smoked with him on the court.

[SHAQATTACK]

What does NGT stand for?

My wife says of my first love ..

No Guitar Tonight ...

[mmmmm]

Drummond doesn't scare anyone about how well he attacks the paint. He's not an amazing post player , or an willing/effective roll man most of the time. He's a mediocre finisher at the rim and a bad foul shooter, also very turnover prone.

The only thing he does that adds value on offense is offensive rebound, I have great news for you the Celtics employ Enes Kanter who is even better than Drummond at that.

And again on defense Giannis/Embiid just dunk him into the basket, without regard for human life as Marc Jackson would say.

If Kanter is so good then why can't he average 20 minutes per game, at the very least.

For the very same reason we DON'T need to play a guy like Drummond more than ~20 minutes per game.

Kanter is ideal as a match up advantage against most bench bigs and then occasionally against the few starting "true bigs" like Embiid.

Against most other lineups, where we need a more switchable 5, Theis is ideal.

[mmmmm]

Also, how amazing of a defensive player would Theis be in Detroit? How great was Kanter on defense before this year? The notion that Kanter >= Drummond is mind boggling

Why? Take a look at their production this year: http://bkref.com/tiny/t4PIz

Take a look at their careers: http://bkref.com/tiny/t0S6I

Enes Kanter signed a massive deal very similar to Drummond and when given starting minutes/role put up very similar numbers. Drummond is one year younger and was drafted one year later.

Drummond just has an owner that loves him and is/was on a crappy team with a bad front office that kept him and gave him a ton of minutes. Kanter was moved by Utah/OKC because their owner and GM are just better than Detroit's.

Drummond is a superior defensive rebounder and is better on defense. But he's no great shakes on D and Kanter is a better offensive player. I don't think there is a massive gap between the two players.

Wow.  It's eerie just how similar their per-36 numbers are.   Except that Enes has been a much more efficient scorer and turns the ball over way, way less.