Poll: Hayward Memphis pick for Drummond and Rose

[Sophomore]

And Embiib kills you in 4 games...

Embiid is really, really good. When he’s engaged, Kanter and the best effort from the wings does about as well against him as anybody.

I would love to have a great center on this team. I just don’t see Drummond as that guy. He’s a marginal upgrade over Kanter at best, at five times the price. If we could trade Hayward for Horford we might have something, but ah, ...

[A Future of Stevens]

I have no doubt that Drummond would eat up a ton of boards for this team. He would be like a super charged Kanter who can pass and is more mobile defensively. On top of that he has a bit of vertical gravity that Kanter does not. Unfortunately I agree with many of the posters before me that I'm not sure he's worth 28 million. Also an issue is that he can opt out at the end of the year to explore the market and possibly get more (not sure he will.)

Let's assume that his cap hit is the same going forward, he would have to be one of our 3 most productive players on both sides of the ball for us to have a shot. The game is continuously trending towards players who are able to dynamically impact the game, and that isn't Drummond.

The argument is that we are in the same situation with Hayward, and while that's fair, would trading Hayward be worth the optics? We have just gotten over the league wide perception that free agents don't want to come here (regardless of the validity of that perception.) We also are giving up a swing of the bat in the back end of the lottery in a weak draft (that doesn't bother me as much.)

Long story short, I'm not sure Drummond is the dominant big man we want to hitch our horse to going forward.

[Fierce1]

I have no doubt that Drummond would eat up a ton of boards for this team. He would be like a super charged Kanter who can pass and is more mobile defensively. On top of that he has a bit of vertical gravity that Kanter does not. Unfortunately I agree with many of the posters before me that I'm not sure he's worth 28 million. Also an issue is that he can opt out at the end of the year to explore the market and possibly get more (not sure he will.)

Let's assume that his cap hit is the same going forward, he would have to be one of our 3 most productive players on both sides of the ball for us to have a shot. The game is continuously trending towards players who are able to dynamically impact the game, and that isn't Drummond.

The argument is that we are in the same situation with Hayward, and while that's fair, would trading Hayward be worth the optics? We have just gotten over the league wide perception that free agents don't want to come here (regardless of the validity of that perception.) We also are giving up a swing of the bat in the back end of the lottery in a weak draft (that doesn't bother me as much.)

Long story short, I'm not sure Drummond is the dominant big man we want to hitch our horse to going forward.

Here's the thing, Hayward is damaged goods and he will most likely opt in next season at 34m.
That means the Celts' total salary will be closer to 140m.

If the Celts remove Hayward's contract, the Celts' total salary next season will be around 100m.

This is where swapping Hayward's contract for Drummond's contract helps the Celts.
Not only will it give us a chance to see how Drummond fits in with the Celts, it will also only cost the Celts around 29m next season if Drummond doesn't opt out.

Worst case scenario is Drummond doesn't fit in and he opts out.
That will put the Celts under the salary cap, which means the Celts will be able sign someone from the free-agent market.

I think gambling on Drummond for half a season and the playoffs is worth the risk.

Celts will never be able to sign Drummond as a free-agent if the Celts don't get him now.

The Celts will be able to address the need for a big man, in the summer of 2020, if the Celts have flexibility.

Celts will not have the cap flexibility if Hayward is still with the Celts next season.

The result will be having the same team this year for next year, plus the 2020 draft picks.

Not a good idea to wait until Hayward's contract is off the books, in 2021, to start building a championship team.

[LilRip]

Just because people want to trade Hayward doesn’t mean Hayward is no good. Of course this team plays better with Hayward! If we weren’t then, 1) why is he even starting and 2) why would anyone want to trade for him? I mean, we might as well propose Vincent Poirier+Carsen Edwards for Sabonis if we’re looking to just gain talent without giving anything up. You have to give up value to get value.

Also, I don’t buy the whole Pistons haven’t won anything argument. Look at Draymond Green. The guy obviously impacts winning but put him on a team without Steph and Klay and KD and maybe that’s a lot harder to see. Nonetheless, the guy would be a monster here.

The C’s don’t have cap space in the foreseeable. They’re going to sign Tatum (obviously) to a long term deal, which means we’re rolling with Kemba-Jaylen-Jayson for quite a while (which makes sense to me) as their main trio. Hayward’s contract is expiring soon too (he can opt out right?)

The question is: do we want to be the team that pays Hayward 28-30M/yr for the next 3-4 years? (Or alternatively run the risk of getting Horford-ed by Hayward)

[LilRip]

I have no doubt that Drummond would eat up a ton of boards for this team. He would be like a super charged Kanter who can pass and is more mobile defensively. On top of that he has a bit of vertical gravity that Kanter does not. Unfortunately I agree with many of the posters before me that I'm not sure he's worth 28 million. Also an issue is that he can opt out at the end of the year to explore the market and possibly get more (not sure he will.)

Let's assume that his cap hit is the same going forward, he would have to be one of our 3 most productive players on both sides of the ball for us to have a shot. The game is continuously trending towards players who are able to dynamically impact the game, and that isn't Drummond.

The argument is that we are in the same situation with Hayward, and while that's fair, would trading Hayward be worth the optics? We have just gotten over the league wide perception that free agents don't want to come here (regardless of the validity of that perception.) We also are giving up a swing of the bat in the back end of the lottery in a weak draft (that doesn't bother me as much.)

Long story short, I'm not sure Drummond is the dominant big man we want to hitch our horse to going forward.

Here's the thing, Hayward is damaged goods and he will most likely opt in next season at 34m.
That means the Celts' total salary will be closer to 140m.

If the Celts remove Hayward's contract, the Celts' total salary next season will be around 100m.

This is where swapping Hayward's contract for Drummond's contract helps the Celts.
Not only will it give us a chance to see how Drummond fits in with the Celts, it will also only cost the Celts around 29m next season if Drummond doesn't opt out.

Worst case scenario is Drummond doesn't fit in and he opts out.
That will put the Celts under the salary cap, which means the Celts will be able sign someone from the free-agent market.

I think gambling on Drummond for half a season and the playoffs is worth the risk.

Celts will never be able to sign Drummond as a free-agent if the Celts don't get him now.

The Celts will be able to address the need for a big man, in the summer of 2020, if the Celts have flexibility.

Celts will not have the cap flexibility if Hayward is still with the Celts next season.

The result will be having the same team this year for next year, plus the 2020 draft picks.

Not a good idea to wait until Hayward's contract is off the books, in 2021, to start building a championship team.

Are we really going to be under the cap? I assume with Tatum needing to be signed to a bigger contract, you lose all the “cap space”. But I’m no cap expert. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

[Fierce1]

Just because people want to trade Hayward doesn’t mean Hayward is no good. Of course this team plays better with Hayward! If we weren’t then, 1) why is he even starting and 2) why would anyone want to trade for him? I mean, we might as well propose Vincent Poirier+Carsen Edwards for Sabonis if we’re looking to just gain talent without giving anything up. You have to give up value to get value.

Also, I don’t buy the whole Pistons haven’t won anything argument. Look at Draymond Green. The guy obviously impacts winning but put him on a team without Steph and Klay and KD and maybe that’s a lot harder to see. Nonetheless, the guy would be a monster here.

The C’s don’t have cap space in the foreseeable. They’re going to sign Tatum (obviously) to a long term deal, which means we’re rolling with Kemba-Jaylen-Jayson for quite a while (which makes sense to me) as their main trio. Hayward’s contract is expiring soon too (he can opt out right?)

The question is: do we want to be the team that pays Hayward 28-30M/yr for the next 3-4 years? (Or alternatively run the risk of getting Horford-ed by Hayward)

So true.

It's not that Hayward is bad, it's about trying to make the Celts better.

If Hayward remains then Celts will not be able to address the need for a big man.

Celts will just end up having the room exception to spend on a free-agent this summer.

Also, Celts will not be able to trade for someone significant because the assets of this year will be similar to the assets of next year.

Maybe the Memphis pick will be gone, but the Celts will basically have the same roster next season if Hayward is not moved now.

So we wait until the summer of 2021 to officially start building a championship team?

[Fierce1]

I have no doubt that Drummond would eat up a ton of boards for this team. He would be like a super charged Kanter who can pass and is more mobile defensively. On top of that he has a bit of vertical gravity that Kanter does not. Unfortunately I agree with many of the posters before me that I'm not sure he's worth 28 million. Also an issue is that he can opt out at the end of the year to explore the market and possibly get more (not sure he will.)

Let's assume that his cap hit is the same going forward, he would have to be one of our 3 most productive players on both sides of the ball for us to have a shot. The game is continuously trending towards players who are able to dynamically impact the game, and that isn't Drummond.

The argument is that we are in the same situation with Hayward, and while that's fair, would trading Hayward be worth the optics? We have just gotten over the league wide perception that free agents don't want to come here (regardless of the validity of that perception.) We also are giving up a swing of the bat in the back end of the lottery in a weak draft (that doesn't bother me as much.)

Long story short, I'm not sure Drummond is the dominant big man we want to hitch our horse to going forward.

Here's the thing, Hayward is damaged goods and he will most likely opt in next season at 34m.
That means the Celts' total salary will be closer to 140m.

If the Celts remove Hayward's contract, the Celts' total salary next season will be around 100m.

This is where swapping Hayward's contract for Drummond's contract helps the Celts.
Not only will it give us a chance to see how Drummond fits in with the Celts, it will also only cost the Celts around 29m next season if Drummond doesn't opt out.

Worst case scenario is Drummond doesn't fit in and he opts out.
That will put the Celts under the salary cap, which means the Celts will be able sign someone from the free-agent market.

I think gambling on Drummond for half a season and the playoffs is worth the risk.

Celts will never be able to sign Drummond as a free-agent if the Celts don't get him now.

The Celts will be able to address the need for a big man, in the summer of 2020, if the Celts have flexibility.

Celts will not have the cap flexibility if Hayward is still with the Celts next season.

The result will be having the same team this year for next year, plus the 2020 draft picks.

Not a good idea to wait until Hayward's contract is off the books, in 2021, to start building a championship team.

Are we really going to be under the cap? I assume with Tatum needing to be signed to a bigger contract, you lose all the “cap space”. But I’m no cap expert. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/boston-celtics-team-salary/

Quick: Spent over the cap. Hard capped by the Kemba Walker sign and trade.

Salary Cap: $109,140,000

Luxury Tax Threshold: $132,627,000

Hard Cap: $138,928,000

Projection for 2020-21 ($116 million cap): Up to $16.9 million, none if Gordon Hayward or Enes Kanter opt in.

If the contracts of Kanter and Hayward will be gone then the Celts will have 16.9m in cap space for this summer's free-agent market.

[Fafnir]

The idea that Drummond makes us a contender is wild.

He doesn't even help us match up better! Embiid/Giannis just dunk him into the basket. He is even worse than Theis at defending those two, despite his superior size.

[Fierce1]

The idea that Drummond makes us a contender is wild.

He doesn't even help us match up better! Embiid/Giannis just dunk him into the basket. He is even worse than Theis at defending those two, despite his superior size.

You're missing the point.

Having Drummond means Embiid and Giannis will have to play defense inside the paint and they will end up in foul trouble.

Right now Embiid and Giannis are not worried about Theis because they know Theis will not score inside the paint against them.

It's about forcing opposing big men to foul and getting them in foul trouble.

You cannot leave Drummond open inside the paint, he will easily get 20 points if given the opportunity.

Diversity on offense, that's what the Celts are lacking right now.

One poster here said if the Celts wing players shot better against the Bucks, the Celts would've won.

True.

But that's the problem, the Celts need to shoot well from the outside to win against elite teams.

The Bucks can win games even when Giannis is off because they have excellent shooters.
And if the shooters are off, Giannis can score inside at will.

If the Celts are not shooting well from the outside, Celts usually lose because they don't have that inside presence that will give them consistent scoring inside the paint.

[A Future of Stevens]

@Fierce, so in you're worst case scenario, Drummond opts out and and we get the cap space you described above. What big man would you target that's a free agent this year that would help us more than Theis? The FA crop this year is kind of whack. I'm not sure one of Whiteside, Thompson, Howard, Gasol, Poeltl, or Noel would be worth the expense of Hayward, regardless of how little some people think of him.

[Fafnir]

Drummond doesn't scare anyone about how well he attacks the paint. He's not an amazing post player , or an willing/effective roll man most of the time. He's a mediocre finisher at the rim and a bad foul shooter, also very turnover prone.

The only thing he does that adds value on offense is offensive rebound, I have great news for you the Celtics employ Enes Kanter who is even better than Drummond at that.

And again on defense Giannis/Embiid just dunk him into the basket, without regard for human life as Marc Jackson would say.

[nickagneta]

I have no doubt that Drummond would eat up a ton of boards for this team. He would be like a super charged Kanter who can pass and is more mobile defensively. On top of that he has a bit of vertical gravity that Kanter does not. Unfortunately I agree with many of the posters before me that I'm not sure he's worth 28 million. Also an issue is that he can opt out at the end of the year to explore the market and possibly get more (not sure he will.)

Let's assume that his cap hit is the same going forward, he would have to be one of our 3 most productive players on both sides of the ball for us to have a shot. The game is continuously trending towards players who are able to dynamically impact the game, and that isn't Drummond.

The argument is that we are in the same situation with Hayward, and while that's fair, would trading Hayward be worth the optics? We have just gotten over the league wide perception that free agents don't want to come here (regardless of the validity of that perception.) We also are giving up a swing of the bat in the back end of the lottery in a weak draft (that doesn't bother me as much.)

Long story short, I'm not sure Drummond is the dominant big man we want to hitch our horse to going forward.

Here's the thing, Hayward is damaged goods and he will most likely opt in next season at 34m.
That means the Celts' total salary will be closer to 140m.

If the Celts remove Hayward's contract, the Celts' total salary next season will be around 100m.

This is where swapping Hayward's contract for Drummond's contract helps the Celts.
Not only will it give us a chance to see how Drummond fits in with the Celts, it will also only cost the Celts around 29m next season if Drummond doesn't opt out.

Worst case scenario is Drummond doesn't fit in and he opts out.
That will put the Celts under the salary cap, which means the Celts will be able sign someone from the free-agent market.

I think gambling on Drummond for half a season and the playoffs is worth the risk.

Celts will never be able to sign Drummond as a free-agent if the Celts don't get him now.

The Celts will be able to address the need for a big man, in the summer of 2020, if the Celts have flexibility.

Celts will not have the cap flexibility if Hayward is still with the Celts next season.

The result will be having the same team this year for next year, plus the 2020 draft picks.

Not a good idea to wait until Hayward's contract is off the books, in 2021, to start building a championship team.

Are we really going to be under the cap? I assume with Tatum needing to be signed to a bigger contract, you lose all the “cap space”. But I’m no cap expert. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

Yes, and not really.

In a one on one trade of Hayward and Drummond, if Drummond decides to move on, and Kanter moves on and the Celtics don't bring back Theis and Semi and Green and they trade away all their draft picks for future picks that would give the team about $21.8 million with only

Kemba
Brown
Tatum
Smart
RWilliams
GWilliams
Edwards
Langford
Poirier

and the room exception of $4.9 million and vet min contracts to fill out the team.

Now if they keep the 3 picks reduce cap space by $5-7 million depending on where the Memphis, Milwaukee and Boston picks land but add in $2.7 million to the cap space because you are getting rid of the empty roster slot holds. (So total cut from above cap number is $2.3-4.3 million.

If they keep Theis, because, you need at the very least one guy that can slot in as a back up or starting big, reduce that cap space another $5 million.

If Tremont Waters is going to be signed then reduce the cap another $900000

What you end up with is a number not all that much higher than the non-tax payer MLE which you can have plus the bi annual exception and Hayward and Semi and Green, if you just don't make the trade.

[LilRip]

The idea that Drummond makes us a contender is wild.

He doesn't even help us match up better! Embiid/Giannis just dunk him into the basket. He is even worse than Theis at defending those two, despite his superior size.

I believe this is where personnel and defensive scheme come into play. Put Theis in Detroit and let’s see how well he holds up. Kanter also didn’t magically get more nimble on his feet, and yet he’s seemingly less of a sieve this year than his time with the Knicks or Blazers, for example.

To be clear, I don’t think Drummond is a franchise player. But let’s face it, you’re not getting a franchise player for Hayward straight up. If we could, might as well get Embiid, right?

Contrary to what many think, I think CBS can definitely find a way to make Drummond more than the sum of his parts. He’s a mobile big (when engaged) with court vision (a CBS requirement) and good hands (another CBS requirement) who can finish in the paint without being a high usage player.

[LilRip]

I have no doubt that Drummond would eat up a ton of boards for this team. He would be like a super charged Kanter who can pass and is more mobile defensively. On top of that he has a bit of vertical gravity that Kanter does not. Unfortunately I agree with many of the posters before me that I'm not sure he's worth 28 million. Also an issue is that he can opt out at the end of the year to explore the market and possibly get more (not sure he will.)

Let's assume that his cap hit is the same going forward, he would have to be one of our 3 most productive players on both sides of the ball for us to have a shot. The game is continuously trending towards players who are able to dynamically impact the game, and that isn't Drummond.

The argument is that we are in the same situation with Hayward, and while that's fair, would trading Hayward be worth the optics? We have just gotten over the league wide perception that free agents don't want to come here (regardless of the validity of that perception.) We also are giving up a swing of the bat in the back end of the lottery in a weak draft (that doesn't bother me as much.)

Long story short, I'm not sure Drummond is the dominant big man we want to hitch our horse to going forward.

Here's the thing, Hayward is damaged goods and he will most likely opt in next season at 34m.
That means the Celts' total salary will be closer to 140m.

If the Celts remove Hayward's contract, the Celts' total salary next season will be around 100m.

This is where swapping Hayward's contract for Drummond's contract helps the Celts.
Not only will it give us a chance to see how Drummond fits in with the Celts, it will also only cost the Celts around 29m next season if Drummond doesn't opt out.

Worst case scenario is Drummond doesn't fit in and he opts out.
That will put the Celts under the salary cap, which means the Celts will be able sign someone from the free-agent market.

I think gambling on Drummond for half a season and the playoffs is worth the risk.

Celts will never be able to sign Drummond as a free-agent if the Celts don't get him now.

The Celts will be able to address the need for a big man, in the summer of 2020, if the Celts have flexibility.

Celts will not have the cap flexibility if Hayward is still with the Celts next season.

The result will be having the same team this year for next year, plus the 2020 draft picks.

Not a good idea to wait until Hayward's contract is off the books, in 2021, to start building a championship team.

Are we really going to be under the cap? I assume with Tatum needing to be signed to a bigger contract, you lose all the “cap space”. But I’m no cap expert. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

Yes, and not really.

In a one on one trade of Hayward and Drummond, if Drummond decides to move on, and Kanter moves on and the Celtics don't bring back Theis and Semi and Green and they trade away all their draft picks for future picks that would give the team about $21.8 million with only

Kemba
Brown
Tatum
Smart
RWilliams
GWilliams
Edwards
Langford
Poirier

and the room exception of $4.9 million and vet min contracts to fill out the team.

Now if they keep the 3 picks reduce cap space by $5-7 million depending on where the Memphis, Milwaukee and Boston picks land but add in $2.7 million to the cap space because you are getting rid of the empty roster slot holds. (So total cut from above cap number is $2.3-4.3 million.

If they keep Theis, because, you need at the very least one guy that can slot in as a back up or starting big, reduce that cap space another $5 million.

If Tremont Waters is going to be signed then reduce the cap another $900000

What you end up with is a number not all that much higher than the non-tax payer MLE which you can have plus the bi annual exception and Hayward and Semi and Green, if you just don't make the trade.

Ok I thought so. I figured there would be no cap flexibility

[Fierce1]

@Fierce, so in you're worst case scenario, Drummond opts out and and we get the cap space you described above. What big man would you target that's a free agent this year that would help us more than Theis? The FA crop this year is kind of whack. I'm not sure one of Whiteside, Thompson, Howard, Gasol, Poeltl, or Noel would be worth the expense of Hayward, regardless of how little some people think of him.

Too early to tell.

Some of the Celtic fans here don't believe the Celts are contenders right now.

So if this season's Celts are not contenders then that would be the same case next season.
Celts will basically have the same team next season because of Hayward's 34m next season.

Reason why I don't think Hayward is worth keeping next season is because Tatum and Brown will even be better next season.

There's really no need to waste 34m on another wing player next season.