Poll: Hayward Memphis pick for Drummond and Rose

[Fafnir]

The idea that Drummond makes us a contender is wild.

He doesn't even help us match up better! Embiid/Giannis just dunk him into the basket. He is even worse than Theis at defending those two, despite his superior size.

I believe this is where personnel and defensive scheme come into play. Put Theis in Detroit and let’s see how well he holds up. Kanter also didn’t magically get more nimble on his feet, and yet he’s seemingly less of a sieve this year than his time with the Knicks or Blazers, for example.

To be clear, I don’t think Drummond is a franchise player. But let’s face it, you’re not getting a franchise player for Hayward straight up. If we could, might as well get Embiid, right?

Contrary to what many think, I think CBS can definitely find a way to make Drummond more than the sum of his parts. He’s a mobile big (when engaged) with court vision (a CBS requirement) and good hands (another CBS requirement) who can finish in the paint without being a high usage player.

I'm sure he could figure a way to maximize Drummond, but I don't think there is all that much to maximize. He'd have a Kanter like role with the C's, but we already have Kanter so why???

Also again Kanter does okay against Embiid in the post, meanwhile Embiid again DUNKS Drummond into the basket. No scheme in the world helps you play strong/disciplined and not get completely taken out of the game mentally. Drummond has repeatedly had that done to him by Embiid.

Scheme is about how you protect a player in team action and set him up for success. If you have to double to protect Drummond like you do Theis what's the point acquiring him?

[Fierce1]

Drummond doesn't scare anyone about how well he attacks the paint. He's not an amazing post player , or an willing/effective roll man most of the time. He's a mediocre finisher at the rim and a bad foul shooter, also very turnover prone.

The only thing he does that adds value on offense is offensive rebound, I have great news for you the Celtics employ Enes Kanter who is even better than Drummond at that.

And again on defense Giannis/Embiid just dunk him into the basket, without regard for human life as Marc Jackson would say.

If Kanter is so good then why can't he average 20 minutes per game, at the very least.

Kanter is not even playing half of 48 minutes.

Every team that Kanter has played for in the past gave up on him.

And Brad Stevens doesn't play players who are bad on defense.

[Donoghus]

Drummond doesn't scare anyone about how well he attacks the paint. He's not an amazing post player , or an willing/effective roll man most of the time. He's a mediocre finisher at the rim and a bad foul shooter, also very turnover prone.

The only thing he does that adds value on offense is offensive rebound, I have great news for you the Celtics employ Enes Kanter who is even better than Drummond at that.

And again on defense Giannis/Embiid just dunk him into the basket, without regard for human life as Marc Jackson would say.

If Kanter is so good then why can't he average 20 minutes per game, at the very least.

Kanter is not even playing half of 48 minutes.

Every team that Kanter has played for in the past gave up on him.

And Brad Stevens doesn't play players who are bad on defense.

Because they don't need him to play more than 20 min/game when they also have Theis or the ability to throw an effective small ball lineup out there. 

[Fierce1]

I have no doubt that Drummond would eat up a ton of boards for this team. He would be like a super charged Kanter who can pass and is more mobile defensively. On top of that he has a bit of vertical gravity that Kanter does not. Unfortunately I agree with many of the posters before me that I'm not sure he's worth 28 million. Also an issue is that he can opt out at the end of the year to explore the market and possibly get more (not sure he will.)

Let's assume that his cap hit is the same going forward, he would have to be one of our 3 most productive players on both sides of the ball for us to have a shot. The game is continuously trending towards players who are able to dynamically impact the game, and that isn't Drummond.

The argument is that we are in the same situation with Hayward, and while that's fair, would trading Hayward be worth the optics? We have just gotten over the league wide perception that free agents don't want to come here (regardless of the validity of that perception.) We also are giving up a swing of the bat in the back end of the lottery in a weak draft (that doesn't bother me as much.)

Long story short, I'm not sure Drummond is the dominant big man we want to hitch our horse to going forward.

Here's the thing, Hayward is damaged goods and he will most likely opt in next season at 34m.
That means the Celts' total salary will be closer to 140m.

If the Celts remove Hayward's contract, the Celts' total salary next season will be around 100m.

This is where swapping Hayward's contract for Drummond's contract helps the Celts.
Not only will it give us a chance to see how Drummond fits in with the Celts, it will also only cost the Celts around 29m next season if Drummond doesn't opt out.

Worst case scenario is Drummond doesn't fit in and he opts out.
That will put the Celts under the salary cap, which means the Celts will be able sign someone from the free-agent market.

I think gambling on Drummond for half a season and the playoffs is worth the risk.

Celts will never be able to sign Drummond as a free-agent if the Celts don't get him now.

The Celts will be able to address the need for a big man, in the summer of 2020, if the Celts have flexibility.

Celts will not have the cap flexibility if Hayward is still with the Celts next season.

The result will be having the same team this year for next year, plus the 2020 draft picks.

Not a good idea to wait until Hayward's contract is off the books, in 2021, to start building a championship team.

Are we really going to be under the cap? I assume with Tatum needing to be signed to a bigger contract, you lose all the “cap space”. But I’m no cap expert. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

Yes, and not really.

In a one on one trade of Hayward and Drummond, if Drummond decides to move on, and Kanter moves on and the Celtics don't bring back Theis and Semi and Green and they trade away all their draft picks for future picks that would give the team about $21.8 million with only

Kemba
Brown
Tatum
Smart
RWilliams
GWilliams
Edwards
Langford
Poirier

and the room exception of $4.9 million and vet min contracts to fill out the team.

Now if they keep the 3 picks reduce cap space by $5-7 million depending on where the Memphis, Milwaukee and Boston picks land but add in $2.7 million to the cap space because you are getting rid of the empty roster slot holds. (So total cut from above cap number is $2.3-4.3 million.

If they keep Theis, because, you need at the very least one guy that can slot in as a back up or starting big, reduce that cap space another $5 million.

If Tremont Waters is going to be signed then reduce the cap another $900000

What you end up with is a number not all that much higher than the non-tax payer MLE which you can have plus the bi annual exception and Hayward and Semi and Green, if you just don't make the trade.

You said the Celts are not contenders right now.
That's why you think Ainge will stand pat because it's after the season that Ainge should make trades.

But if Hayward remains then the Celts will basically have the same team from this season to next season.

As long as the core 5 remains intact, Ainge will not be able to do anything significant.

So we'll just waste another year and see the Celts exit in the playoffs again?

Trading Hayward now will open up more opportunities for the Celts.

[Fierce1]

Drummond doesn't scare anyone about how well he attacks the paint. He's not an amazing post player , or an willing/effective roll man most of the time. He's a mediocre finisher at the rim and a bad foul shooter, also very turnover prone.

The only thing he does that adds value on offense is offensive rebound, I have great news for you the Celtics employ Enes Kanter who is even better than Drummond at that.

And again on defense Giannis/Embiid just dunk him into the basket, without regard for human life as Marc Jackson would say.

If Kanter is so good then why can't he average 20 minutes per game, at the very least.

Kanter is not even playing half of 48 minutes.

Every team that Kanter has played for in the past gave up on him.

And Brad Stevens doesn't play players who are bad on defense.

Because they don't need him to play more than 20 min/game when they also have Theis or the ability to throw an effective small ball lineup out there.

Simply not true.

Reason why Kanter is playing the lowest minutes per game, since his 2nd year in 2012-13, is because he's so bad on defense.

Brad Stevens yanks him every time he misses a defensive assignment or he lets the opposing player get an easy bucket.

[Fierce1]

Here's an article about how bad Kanter's defense is.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2872313-biggest-need-every-nba-team-must-address-at-the-trade-deadline#slide2

The Celtics' center spot has performed above expectations. However, it's still nowhere near championship-ready, so that's kind of a moot point unless Boston isn't title-chasing this season.

The C's can't chase the crown and keep this center rotation intact. Daniel Theis is as tall as Jayson Tatum and is lighter than Jaylen Brown. Make Enes Kanter move side-to-side and it's like he's walking in wet cement. Robert Williams III has only 51 NBA games under his belt and may not have another until after the All-Star break.

That's a problematic position group in any playoff matchup. It's a fatal flaw in a series against Joel Embiid, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Pascal Siakam or Anthony Davis.

Boston has three options. Do nothing, and hope Brad Stevens can mask this shortcoming, maybe with the league's next small-ball death lineup. Practice patience and hope the buyout market delivers a life preserver like Tristan Thompson. Or make a bold move for a big man, even if it costs a core player like Gordon Hayward.

The latter is extreme, but if the C's think they have a shot at contention, they may throw caution to the wind.

[LilRip]

The idea that Drummond makes us a contender is wild.

He doesn't even help us match up better! Embiid/Giannis just dunk him into the basket. He is even worse than Theis at defending those two, despite his superior size.

I believe this is where personnel and defensive scheme come into play. Put Theis in Detroit and let’s see how well he holds up. Kanter also didn’t magically get more nimble on his feet, and yet he’s seemingly less of a sieve this year than his time with the Knicks or Blazers, for example.

To be clear, I don’t think Drummond is a franchise player. But let’s face it, you’re not getting a franchise player for Hayward straight up. If we could, might as well get Embiid, right?

Contrary to what many think, I think CBS can definitely find a way to make Drummond more than the sum of his parts. He’s a mobile big (when engaged) with court vision (a CBS requirement) and good hands (another CBS requirement) who can finish in the paint without being a high usage player.

I'm sure he could figure a way to maximize Drummond, but I don't think there is all that much to maximize. He'd have a Kanter like role with the C's, but we already have Kanter so why???

Also again Kanter does okay against Embiid in the post, meanwhile Embiid again DUNKS Drummond into the basket. No scheme in the world helps you play strong/disciplined and not get completely taken out of the game mentally. Drummond has repeatedly had that done to him by Embiid.

Scheme is about how you protect a player in team action and set him up for success. If you have to double to protect Drummond like you do Theis what's the point acquiring him?

I highly doubt this is the only meaning of “scheme” Yes, it applies when you have an Isaiah Thomas or something, but you also have a defensive game plan to stop teams from doing things they like or slowing down great offensive players. Even the great Marcus Smart who locks down bigs or DPOY candidates like Gobert or Draymond execute defensive schemes. Defense is a mix of personnel and coaching.

I can’t name a player who can stop Giannis 1 on 1. Or Embiid. Can you?

Also, how amazing of a defensive player would Theis be in Detroit? How great was Kanter on defense before this year? The notion that Kanter >= Drummond is mind boggling

[Fafnir]

Because they don't need him to play more than 20 min/game when they also have Theis or the ability to throw an effective small ball lineup out there.

Yup. And Kanter isn't some sort of clear great player whom you give 30 MPG. He's a good role player who has a specific weakness and strength that you try and put in good positions.

The thing is, I don't think Drummond is a clear great player you want on the court 30+ MPG either.

[Donoghus]

Drummond doesn't scare anyone about how well he attacks the paint. He's not an amazing post player , or an willing/effective roll man most of the time. He's a mediocre finisher at the rim and a bad foul shooter, also very turnover prone.

The only thing he does that adds value on offense is offensive rebound, I have great news for you the Celtics employ Enes Kanter who is even better than Drummond at that.

And again on defense Giannis/Embiid just dunk him into the basket, without regard for human life as Marc Jackson would say.

If Kanter is so good then why can't he average 20 minutes per game, at the very least.

Kanter is not even playing half of 48 minutes.

Every team that Kanter has played for in the past gave up on him.

And Brad Stevens doesn't play players who are bad on defense.

Because they don't need him to play more than 20 min/game when they also have Theis or the ability to throw an effective small ball lineup out there.

Simply not true.

Reason why Kanter is playing the lowest minutes per game, since his 2nd year in 2012-13, is because he's so bad on defense.

Brad Stevens yanks him every time he misses a defensive assignment or he lets the opposing player get an easy bucket.

If you can't grasp the concept of team depth & situational basketball, then there's no reason to continue to bang my head arguing with you over utter nonsense.

Keep spamming across threads the same stuff, though.  That'll end well.

[Fierce1]

Because they don't need him to play more than 20 min/game when they also have Theis or the ability to throw an effective small ball lineup out there.

Yup. And Kanter isn't some sort of clear great player whom you give 30 MPG. He's a good role player who has a specific weakness and strength that you try and put in good positions.

The thing is, I don't think Drummond is a clear great player you want on the court 30+ MPG either.

That's what you think.

We'll never know for sure.

Take the case of Ainge trading for IT at the trade deadline in 2015.

Celts were lottery bound before the IT trade.
Then IT suddenly turned things around for the Celts.
Celts ended up making the playoffs and IT, not only became a starter, he was a top 5 MVP candidate in 2017.

Right now if what some Celtic fans here are saying is true, that the Celts are not real contenders, we'll just end up seeing the Celts exit in the 2nd round of the playoffs this season.

But if the Celts get Drummond, we won't know for sure what will happen.

That's why it's a gamble.

I'd rather gamble than standing pat and just accepting the Celts will not be playing in June.

[Fafnir]

Also, how amazing of a defensive player would Theis be in Detroit? How great was Kanter on defense before this year? The notion that Kanter >= Drummond is mind boggling

Why? Take a look at their production this year: http://bkref.com/tiny/t4PIz

Take a look at their careers: http://bkref.com/tiny/t0S6I

Enes Kanter signed a massive deal very similar to Drummond and when given starting minutes/role put up very similar numbers. Drummond is one year younger and was drafted one year later.

Drummond just has an owner that loves him and is/was on a crappy team with a bad front office that kept him and gave him a ton of minutes. Kanter was moved by Utah/OKC because their owner and GM are just better than Detroit's.

Drummond is a superior defensive rebounder and is better on defense. But he's no great shakes on D and Kanter is a better offensive player. I don't think there is a massive gap between the two players.

[Fierce1]

Drummond doesn't scare anyone about how well he attacks the paint. He's not an amazing post player , or an willing/effective roll man most of the time. He's a mediocre finisher at the rim and a bad foul shooter, also very turnover prone.

The only thing he does that adds value on offense is offensive rebound, I have great news for you the Celtics employ Enes Kanter who is even better than Drummond at that.

And again on defense Giannis/Embiid just dunk him into the basket, without regard for human life as Marc Jackson would say.

If Kanter is so good then why can't he average 20 minutes per game, at the very least.

Kanter is not even playing half of 48 minutes.

Every team that Kanter has played for in the past gave up on him.

And Brad Stevens doesn't play players who are bad on defense.

Because they don't need him to play more than 20 min/game when they also have Theis or the ability to throw an effective small ball lineup out there.

Simply not true.

Reason why Kanter is playing the lowest minutes per game, since his 2nd year in 2012-13, is because he's so bad on defense.

Brad Stevens yanks him every time he misses a defensive assignment or he lets the opposing player get an easy bucket.

If you can't grasp the concept of team depth & situational basketball, then there's no reason to continue to bang my head arguing with you over utter nonsense.

Keep spamming across threads the same stuff, though.  That'll end well.

Spamming?

Do you have proof that I've been spamming the same stuff across multiple threads?

Why are you accusing me of something that I didn't do?

You can check for yourself how many threads I posted in the last few days and see what I posted.

[Fierce1]

Drummond doesn't scare anyone about how well he attacks the paint. He's not an amazing post player , or an willing/effective roll man most of the time. He's a mediocre finisher at the rim and a bad foul shooter, also very turnover prone.

The only thing he does that adds value on offense is offensive rebound, I have great news for you the Celtics employ Enes Kanter who is even better than Drummond at that.

And again on defense Giannis/Embiid just dunk him into the basket, without regard for human life as Marc Jackson would say.

If Kanter is so good then why can't he average 20 minutes per game, at the very least.

Kanter is not even playing half of 48 minutes.

Every team that Kanter has played for in the past gave up on him.

And Brad Stevens doesn't play players who are bad on defense.

Because they don't need him to play more than 20 min/game when they also have Theis or the ability to throw an effective small ball lineup out there.

If the Celts are so effective in their small ball lineup then why are the Celts just the 4th best team in the east right now?

Just because you don't like what I'm saying it doesn't mean I'm spamming!

[Fafnir]

Because they don't need him to play more than 20 min/game when they also have Theis or the ability to throw an effective small ball lineup out there.

Yup. And Kanter isn't some sort of clear great player whom you give 30 MPG. He's a good role player who has a specific weakness and strength that you try and put in good positions.

The thing is, I don't think Drummond is a clear great player you want on the court 30+ MPG either.

That's what you think.

We'll never know for sure.

Take the case of Ainge trading for IT at the trade deadline in 2015.

Celts were lottery bound before the IT trade.
Then IT suddenly turned things around for the Celts.
Celts ended up making the playoffs and IT, not only became a starter, he was a top 5 MVP candidate in 2017.

Right now if what some Celtic fans here are saying is true, that the Celts are not real contenders, we'll just end up seeing the Celts exit in the 2nd round of the playoffs this season.

But if the Celts get Drummond, we won't know for sure what will happen.

That's why it's a gamble.

I'd rather gamble than standing pat and just accepting the Celts will not be playing in June.

What did Ainge give up for IT? Is that comparable to Hayward? Also does Drummond look like the player who could pop if given a different role? Those are the questions you should ask yourself, I'm skeptical he'd suddenly become a high level player in a lesser role on the C's

As for the, "you think stuff" yes that's what I think? The future is indeed unknowable, but I don't think that means you should through caution to the wind and shake the snow globe up just to see what happens.

[Fierce1]

Drummond doesn't scare anyone about how well he attacks the paint. He's not an amazing post player , or an willing/effective roll man most of the time. He's a mediocre finisher at the rim and a bad foul shooter, also very turnover prone.

The only thing he does that adds value on offense is offensive rebound, I have great news for you the Celtics employ Enes Kanter who is even better than Drummond at that.

And again on defense Giannis/Embiid just dunk him into the basket, without regard for human life as Marc Jackson would say.

If Kanter is so good then why can't he average 20 minutes per game, at the very least.

Kanter is not even playing half of 48 minutes.

Every team that Kanter has played for in the past gave up on him.

And Brad Stevens doesn't play players who are bad on defense.

Because they don't need him to play more than 20 min/game when they also have Theis or the ability to throw an effective small ball lineup out there.

Simply not true.

Reason why Kanter is playing the lowest minutes per game, since his 2nd year in 2012-13, is because he's so bad on defense.

Brad Stevens yanks him every time he misses a defensive assignment or he lets the opposing player get an easy bucket.

If you can't grasp the concept of team depth & situational basketball, then there's no reason to continue to bang my head arguing with you over utter nonsense.

Keep spamming across threads the same stuff, though.  That'll end well.

Team depth and situational basketball?

How many times has Brad Stevens been to the NBA Finals?

When was the last time the Celts made it to the Finals?

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Ainge's small ball is not working, that's why the Celts have not gone back to the Finals since 2010!