Author Topic: Could Kawhi turn out to be this generation's best, even better than LeBron?  (Read 4904 times)

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Offline nickagneta

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Kawhi being a Clipper with a tremendous sidekick in Paul George could mean, maybe, a couple titles for Kawhi over the course of his new contract. If Kawhi ends his career with less gawdy stats than LeBron or Durant but goes like 4-1 or 5-1 in NBA Finals, while bringing home 3 or 4 or 5 Finals MVPs in three different franchises, does that elevate him as this generation's best player over Lebron and Durant? Is a 4-1 or 5-1 in the Finals Kawhi better than a 3-6 in the Finals LeBron?

Or would it come down to being that LeBron was the generation's best player but Kawhi was the biggest winner of the generation? If Kawhi goes on a 3 or 4year run of titles here, including his Toronto win, could that run propel him to greater heights on the greatest player of the generation ladder, even above players like Steph, LeBron and Durant?

EDIT: Kawhi lost a Finals in his sophomore year so the above numbers were corrected to reflect that as I mistakenly had him undefeated in the Finals.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 01:16:56 PM by nickagneta »

Offline Somebody

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Imo him just putting up gaudy stats until his early-mid thirties would put him in the discussion, even if he doesn't win multiple titles. I'd take Kawhi's 3 rings over Bron/Steph/KD, assuming that he wins one more.
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Offline gouki88

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I think so. Less individual domination in terms of stats and MVP wins, but if he can put up similar stats to this Toronto season - say he averages 25/7/3 with consistently elite defence over his next contract, with his routinely good efficiency - and on the Clippers (the flipping Clippers!) is able to win a ring, then I would probably rank him higher than LeBron. Especially if he beats the Lakers in the playoffs along the way.

When you compare them, the only things LeBron really would have over him (assuming what I wrote above comes to be) would be playmaking and longevity. That being said the playmaking gap is a considerable one, but on the flipside so is the gap in defence.

I hope it happens. Don't like LeBron, but Kawhi is one of my favourites.
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Offline Somebody

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I think so. Less individual domination in terms of stats and MVP wins, but if he can put up similar stats to this Toronto season - say he averages 25/7/3 with consistently elite defence over his next contract, with his routinely good efficiency - and on the Clippers (the flipping Clippers!) is able to win a ring, then I would probably rank him higher than LeBron. Especially if he beats the Lakers in the playoffs along the way.

When you compare them, the only things LeBron really would have over him (assuming what I wrote above comes to be) would be playmaking and longevity. That being said the playmaking gap is a considerable one, but on the flipside so is the gap in defence.

I hope it happens. Don't like LeBron, but Kawhi is one of my favourites.
I mean winning a title on three different teams would be pretty crazy. Also think that Kawhi's game can age pretty gracefully, he could plausibly still be at an All-NBA level in his mid thirties.
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Offline gouki88

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I think so. Less individual domination in terms of stats and MVP wins, but if he can put up similar stats to this Toronto season - say he averages 25/7/3 with consistently elite defence over his next contract, with his routinely good efficiency - and on the Clippers (the flipping Clippers!) is able to win a ring, then I would probably rank him higher than LeBron. Especially if he beats the Lakers in the playoffs along the way.

When you compare them, the only things LeBron really would have over him (assuming what I wrote above comes to be) would be playmaking and longevity. That being said the playmaking gap is a considerable one, but on the flipside so is the gap in defence.

I hope it happens. Don't like LeBron, but Kawhi is one of my favourites.
I mean winning a title on three different teams would be pretty crazy. Also think that Kawhi's game can age pretty gracefully, he could plausibly still be at an All-NBA level in his mid thirties.
Yeah, especially teams like Toronto and the Clippers, who have such little pedigree. He's also become less reliant on his athleticism as a Raptor I think, as he's developed some more offensive finesse (better handling, shooting and passing)
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Offline CelticsWhat35

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Kawhi being a Clipper with a tremendous sidekick in Paul George could mean, maybe, a couple titles for Kawhi over the course of his new contract. If Kawhi ends his career with less gawdy stats than LeBron or Durant but goes like 4-0 or 5-0 in NBA Finals, while bringing home 3 or 4 or 5 Finals MVPs in three different franchises, does that elevate him as this generation's best player over Lebron and Durant? Is a 4-0 or 5-0 in the Finals Kawhi better than a 3-6 in the Finals LeBron?

Or would it come down to being that LeBron was the generation's best player but Kawhi was the biggest winner of the generation? If Kawhi goes on a 3 or 4year run of titles here, including his Toronto win, could that run propel him to greater heights on the greatest player of the generation ladder, even above players like Steph, LeBron and Durant?

I was thinking the same thing, which was why him going to the Lakers never made sense to me.  It would’ve tarnished his legacy while elevating Lebron’s (who would’ve gotten all the credit).  If he wins a title with the Clippers, he will have a more impressive resumé than Lebron or anyone else of this generation.

Online Moranis

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I don't think so.  The handful of players that are always in the discussion for greatest ever not only have multiple titles and MVP's but also have gaudy stats (even Bill).  That is what puts them in the discussion for greatest ever.  You have to have both.  Now if over the next 6 years, Kawhi picks up a couple of titles, a MVP or two, and not only continues to score but also starts adding more rebounds and assists to his game, then maybe he starts getting in that discussion.  But he would need to do a lot. 

And while I do think the Clippers are the favorites, it isn't like the Lebron or Durant also couldn't pick up a title or two as their teams are at least theoretically very good teams.
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Offline gift

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I don't understand. Kawhi is not as good as peak Lebron was. Probably never will be. Why is this a question?

Also, in terms of NBA generations I consider Lebron and Kawhi to be different generations.

Offline Green-18

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Kawhi being a Clipper with a tremendous sidekick in Paul George could mean, maybe, a couple titles for Kawhi over the course of his new contract. If Kawhi ends his career with less gawdy stats than LeBron or Durant but goes like 4-0 or 5-0 in NBA Finals, while bringing home 3 or 4 or 5 Finals MVPs in three different franchises, does that elevate him as this generation's best player over Lebron and Durant? Is a 4-0 or 5-0 in the Finals Kawhi better than a 3-6 in the Finals LeBron?

Or would it come down to being that LeBron was the generation's best player but Kawhi was the biggest winner of the generation? If Kawhi goes on a 3 or 4year run of titles here, including his Toronto win, could that run propel him to greater heights on the greatest player of the generation ladder, even above players like Steph, LeBron and Durant?

If all of the above happens, I say yes.  At that point Kawhi will have an aura that supersedes longevity and statistical dominance.  He already has the perfect narrative surrounding his first two title wins.  Fair or not, Kawhi's titles serve his legacy better than any of LeBron's.  LeBron will always be criticized for the way his teams were put together. 

There's valid arguments to be made in either direction, but there's no doubting that popular opinion will favor Kawhi in your scenario. 

Offline jambr380

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I don't understand. Kawhi is not as good as peak Lebron was. Probably never will be. Why is this a question?

Also, in terms of NBA generations I consider Lebron and Kawhi to be different generations.

I agree with your 1st statement and kind-of agree with the 2nd. The question is purely hypothetical, though. As it stands now, Kawhi isn't even remotely in Lebron's ballpark. Lebron as been dominant for over a decade and a half. If not for GSW (one of the greatest teams ever assembled), we would be signing a different tune in terms of his championships.

Kawhi lucked into a Finals MVP in SAS and was one ridiculous bounce away from losing in the ECSF (never mind having the Ws drop like flies in the Finals).

I like Kawhi, and I HATE Lebron, but it really isn't even close at this point. I suppose if he all out dominates over the next 5 years, winning 2-3 MVP and 4 more titles, then sure, we can have a discussion...but I think that discussion could be made with anybody who achieves those accolades.

Offline Roy H.

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Just a reminder, nick: Kawhi has a Finals loss, so he won’t finish 4-0 or 5-0.

I think Lebron will always be the best of his era, but if Kawhi wins another couple of titles while beating Lebron in the process, it may diminish Lebron’s legacy a bit. The perception would be that Kawhi could get it done, while Lebron couldn’t carry his teams to titles even when having at times superior talent.


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Offline nickagneta

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Just a reminder, nick: Kawhi has a Finals loss, so he won’t finish 4-0 or 5-0.

I think Lebron will always be the best of his era, but if Kawhi wins another couple of titles while beating Lebron in the process, it may diminish Lebron’s legacy a bit. The perception would be that Kawhi could get it done, while Lebron couldn’t carry his teams to titles even when having at times superior talent.
That is correct. I forgot about that loss early in his career before Kawhi actually became Kawhi. TP nice pickup on that.

I saw a comment saying that LeBron and Kawhi are from different generations. I can't see that as the two players may end up playing against each other for 10-13 years before it is all said and done.

But, I think I am falling into the category that if Kawhi does go on a run of excellent ball, puts up the numbers and does end up as 4-1 or 5-1 in the Finals, that LeBron should still be considered the best player of the generation but, as I said in the OP, maybe Kawhi will be considered the generation's best winner and that would tarnish LeBron's legacy some. Maybe that would keep Lebron out of the conversation as best player ever with Russell, MJ, Bird and Magic.

Offline CelticsElite

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I don't think so.  The handful of players that are always in the discussion for greatest ever not only have multiple titles and MVP's but also have gaudy stats (even Bill).  That is what puts them in the discussion for greatest ever.  You have to have both.  Now if over the next 6 years, Kawhi picks up a couple of titles, a MVP or two, and not only continues to score but also starts adding more rebounds and assists to his game, then maybe he starts getting in that discussion.  But he would need to do a lot. 

And while I do think the Clippers are the favorites, it isn't like the Lebron or Durant also couldn't pick up a title or two as their teams are at least theoretically very good teams.
how are the Lakers a good team outside of Lebron and AD?

Offline CptZoogs

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Just a reminder, nick: Kawhi has a Finals loss, so he won’t finish 4-0 or 5-0.

I think Lebron will always be the best of his era, but if Kawhi wins another couple of titles while beating Lebron in the process, it may diminish Lebron’s legacy a bit. The perception would be that Kawhi could get it done, while Lebron couldn’t carry his teams to titles even when having at times superior talent.
That is correct. I forgot about that loss early in his career before Kawhi actually became Kawhi. TP nice pickup on that.

I saw a comment saying that LeBron and Kawhi are from different generations. I can't see that as the two players may end up playing against each other for 10-13 years before it is all said and done.

But, I think I am falling into the category that if Kawhi does go on a run of excellent ball, puts up the numbers and does end up as 4-1 or 5-1 in the Finals, that LeBron should still be considered the best player of the generation but, as I said in the OP, maybe Kawhi will be considered the generation's best winner and that would tarnish LeBron's legacy some. Maybe that would keep Lebron out of the conversation as best player ever with Russell, MJ, Bird and Magic.

I think it's tricky.  Would you say Kobe and Lebron were the same generation?  Based on your criteria, yes.  But I wouldn't put Kobe and Kawhi in the same generation.  Shouldn't there be transitivity?  Small point I guess.

Larger point, I think Lebron at his best was the better player.  Leonard cannot match the play-making ability.  Kawhi has a lot more time left, so it will be fun to see what he does with it.

Offline SHAQATTACK

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he could throw shade on Lebrons career ,IF he can beat Lebron and win 2-3 titles .

Kawhi needs to get it done before Klay and Steph get reloaded and before LeTurd can get   "mo hepp"

Giannis might put a stop to all the bS in LA period.