Author Topic: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season  (Read 19990 times)

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Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2019, 12:45:09 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Hope he finally stops tinkering with substitutions and rotations for half the season to "build data". Its a big chemistry killer that he does every year repeatedly.

this coming year will be his 6th season, chemistry has been an issue for 1 season.  ALL of the other seasons the team overachieved.

hes proven he can do a lot with his 'data' when he gets it, so you should be very optimistic about him being able to fix the problem from this season instead of harping on him to change everything

1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

Yeah, that 30-10 start in 2017-2018 (including 16 in a row early) was a huge problem, especially without Hayward.
Are you kidding you remember how they barely won most of those games and BS called the streak fools gold. They struggled.

You are what your record says you are. - Bill Parcells
Unless you are not and you get beat by a lower seed.

LOL at saying 30-10 is struggling. That's priceless.
Winning games with a ton of luck doesn't count as playing well. The record isnt the sign of struggles I am talking about. Its the play not the standings. Do you even remember how crazy some of those games went? Teams can play bad or poorly and still win especially if you had some luck. How many games has this team consistently played poorly for whole quarters especially 1st and 3rds but still won, are we going to say they had a great game? The answer is no. The rotations and subsitions haven't been good is my issue. How many times has this team been dominated on the boards and BS has three guards line ups, you forget that blunder he repeats over and over? This is basketball coaching choices that he is messing up often. Not utilizing length, cutters, or simply controlling the playing time of guys that aren't following the game prlan.

Let's get back on track here. You said:

Quote
the 1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

And I simply pointed out, 30-10 is not starting in a hole. Everything else at this point is moot.
It's in a hole for chemistry. You want to come with cheap reply that's on you. But I have made the point that stands. The tinkering doesn't help the chemistry and doesn't help for winning basketball. Pro players don't want lesser players taking minutes or being in bad mix matches to collect data. It needs to stop. The avg C's fan can tell you the teams best 8 players should play more and with whom and this guy can't get it right. Excuse it if you want but don't tell me it doesn't hurt the team.

Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2019, 12:53:47 PM »

Offline Never Nervous Pervis

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Hope he finally stops tinkering with substitutions and rotations for half the season to "build data". Its a big chemistry killer that he does every year repeatedly.

this coming year will be his 6th season, chemistry has been an issue for 1 season.  ALL of the other seasons the team overachieved.

hes proven he can do a lot with his 'data' when he gets it, so you should be very optimistic about him being able to fix the problem from this season instead of harping on him to change everything

1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

Yeah, that 30-10 start in 2017-2018 (including 16 in a row early) was a huge problem, especially without Hayward.
Are you kidding you remember how they barely won most of those games and BS called the streak fools gold. They struggled.

You are what your record says you are. - Bill Parcells
Unless you are not and you get beat by a lower seed.

LOL at saying 30-10 is struggling. That's priceless.
Winning games with a ton of luck doesn't count as playing well. The record isnt the sign of struggles I am talking about. Its the play not the standings. Do you even remember how crazy some of those games went? Teams can play bad or poorly and still win especially if you had some luck. How many games has this team consistently played poorly for whole quarters especially 1st and 3rds but still won, are we going to say they had a great game? The answer is no. The rotations and subsitions haven't been good is my issue. How many times has this team been dominated on the boards and BS has three guards line ups, you forget that blunder he repeats over and over? This is basketball coaching choices that he is messing up often. Not utilizing length, cutters, or simply controlling the playing time of guys that aren't following the game prlan.

Let's get back on track here. You said:

Quote
the 1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

And I simply pointed out, 30-10 is not starting in a hole. Everything else at this point is moot.
It's in a hole for chemistry. You want to come with cheap reply that's on you. But I have made the point that stands. The tinkering doesn't help the chemistry and doesn't help for winning basketball. Pro players don't want lesser players taking minutes or being in bad mix matches to collect data. It needs to stop. The avg C''s fan can tell you the teams best 8 players should play and with whom and this guy can't get it right. Excuse it if you want but don't tell me it doesn't hurt the team.

Your point does not stand. We were the best team in the Eastern Conference last season, we won games at a alarmingly high rate to begin the year (without our big free agent acquisition), and there were no chemistry issues in 2017-2018. You're grasping at straws.

Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2019, 12:54:28 PM »

Offline greg683x

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Hope he finally stops tinkering with substitutions and rotations for half the season to "build data". Its a big chemistry killer that he does every year repeatedly.

this coming year will be his 6th season, chemistry has been an issue for 1 season.  ALL of the other seasons the team overachieved.

hes proven he can do a lot with his 'data' when he gets it, so you should be very optimistic about him being able to fix the problem from this season instead of harping on him to change everything

1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

Yeah, that 30-10 start in 2017-2018 (including 16 in a row early) was a huge problem, especially without Hayward.
Are you kidding you remember how they barely won most of those games and BS called the streak fools gold. They struggled.

You are what your record says you are. - Bill Parcells
Unless you are not and you get beat by a lower seed.

LOL at saying 30-10 is struggling. That's priceless.
Winning games with a ton of luck doesn't count as playing well. The record isnt the sign of struggles I am talking about. Its the play not the standings. Do you even remember how crazy some of those games went? Teams can play bad or poorly and still win especially if you had some luck. How many games has this team consistently played poorly for whole quarters especially 1st and 3rds but still won, are we going to say they had a great game? The answer is no. The rotations and subsitions haven't been good is my issue. How many times has this team been dominated on the boards and BS has three guards line ups, you forget that blunder he repeats over and over? This is basketball coaching choices that he is messing up often. Not utilizing length, cutters, or simply controlling the playing time of guys that aren't following the game prlan.

Let's get back on track here. You said:

Quote
the 1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

And I simply pointed out, 30-10 is not starting in a hole. Everything else at this point is moot.
It's in a hole for chemistry. You want to come with cheap reply that's on you. But I have made the point that stands. The tinkering doesn't help the chemistry and doesn't help for winning basketball. Pro players don't want lesser players taking minutes or being in bad mix matches to collect data. It needs to stop. The avg C's fan can tell you the teams best 8 players should play more and with whom and this guy can't get it right. Excuse it if you want but don't tell me it doesn't hurt the team.

So the chemistry problem this year had to do with tinkering with lineups and not players developing huge egos after the post season run and not wanting to go back to lesser roles?  Just trying to understand the logic because as far as I’m concerned chemistry has been an issue 1 season out of 5 for Brad.
Greg

Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2019, 02:41:57 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I don't know why people care so much that Brad 'force fed' Hayward minutes to start the season. It doesn't really matter what the other players thought, he was a recent all-star on a max contract; he needed to be playing major minutes to help shed the rust.

CBS not taking more of an authoritarian attitude when players egos got too big may be one thing, but playing Hayward lots of minutes was absolutely the right thing to do. It was the only way we were ever going to have a chance of succeeding.

Well said. I also believe the "Hayward was force fed major minutes early" is a slightly distorted narrative. He averaged 24.5, 27.5 and 26.5 minutes the first three months of the season. Those are 6th man numbers, not starter's minutes.

And those minutes didn't really come at the expense of Tatum and Brown. Tatum's minutes were steady throughout the year (he consistently averaged 30+ minutes a game) and when Brown struggled early and was sent to the bench (along with Hayward), Smart became the starter at the two.

Jaylen's minutes over the course of the year were down 4+ minutes a game from last year, but that was a reflection of his poor play to begin the year.

When Jaylen stepped it up post-Christmas, I do think Brad should have returned him to the starting lineup; not sure that was Hayward's fault, though. He came off the bench the rest of the year.

Yeah, I think the guy who unexpectedly consumed minutes that might have gone to others was Morris.  After playing a reasonable off-the-bench 1447 minutes for us in 2018-19 he jumped way up to playing 2091 minutes this last year.  That was the 4th most minutes on the team.    That came at direct expense of minutes for guys like Jaylen, Gordon & Baynes and indirectly to Rozier.    And that seems strange especially considering Morris is almost certainly gone in free agency this summer.

To a lesser extent, Smart also ended up getting more minutes than I think was expected at the start of the year.   Yes, he got a new contract.  But he was expected to continue to come off the bench.  And with the return of Hayward and Jaylen set to take up a lot of minutes at the 2, it was hard to anticipate Smart jumping up from 1614 minutes the previous year to a hefty 2200 minutes this last year.

Between the two of them, Morris and Smart ended up playing almost 1000 minutes more than one might have expected going into the season.   And those were minutes that I think a lot of folks (players included) probably thought were going to go to guys like Baynes, Jaylen, Rozier and even deeper bench guys like Theis & Semi.
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Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2019, 02:49:15 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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Aside from the dysfunction problems beginning with Hayward, when you talk about Stevens, you can't get away from talking about the 3P shot, where just about everybody including the ballboy has the green light to shoot if they are far enough away from the basket.

I just heard a nice critique of the 3P shot which pointed out something the media never gets into--possessions.

Ever notice that when the Celtics are bombs away 3s and hitting about 20% , they keep on bombing away in the hope more will go in the basket.  A miss is very often accompanied by an easy basket by the opponent--a layup --because the Celtics are caught on the perimeter downcourt and not near the paint for the rebound.

The analytics are simple: You hit 4 for 12 3s --the same as hitting 6 for 12 2s.  What most regard as the standard--you must hit 33% 3s for 50% 2s.  But you're missing  8 3s vs 6 2s to make the same number of points! That's two more possessions for your opponents  if you shoot 3s. That's giving your opponent too many possessions--often easy ones. 36 3s, that would be 6 possessions. Even more if you shoot less than 33% on 3s. Game lost.


So there you have the weakness of 3P disease. Why I think the Celtics need more balance to their game if they are ever going to win anything.


Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2019, 02:52:41 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Decided to copypasta the article to make it easier for people:

After spending the last six years as one of Brad Stevens’s top assistants with the Celtics, Micah Shrewsberry is leaving to take a similar role at Purdue. This week he spoke to the Globe about a variety of topics. Here are his thoughts about some of Boston’s current players.

Q. You helped coach Gordon Hayward at Butler. Obviously it’s been an unfulfilling start for him in Boston, mostly due to his injury. What do you think the past two years have been like for him?

A. I know it’s been hard. It’s definitely not what you envision when you choose a place and now you’re finally there and you get injured, and it takes a while to get back. Knowing Gordon, I think it just really drives him. When people doubt him, I think he gets better.

I don’t want to put any expectations on him, but I think next year will be a year for him to really show who he is and who people were excited about. People don’t realize how good of a player Gordon is. It gets lost in the shuffle because of what’s happened the last two years. But he’s a really good player. I think he’s just itching to prove that and itching to prove people wrong and itching to put his stamp on the organization.

Q. How would you describe the experience of coaching Kyrie Irving?

A. To just see some of the stuff he does up close, sometimes you have to get out of fan mode and go into coach mode, because he can do things that regular guys can’t do. Then the way he goes about his business every day, he comes in and gets his work in the weight room, or his conditioning, or his shooting and ballhandling. His everyday motor for doing those things to make himself better or keep himself at that level, that’s what you see the best of the best do.

Q. Did you talk to him after the season ended?

A. I was in the video room when he came by and turned down the hall and went down to Danny [Ainge’s] office [for his exit interview]. And then when I was sitting in my office on his way back, he saw me as he was leaving and he stopped and came in and just thanked me for the year and told me good luck at Purdue. He was happy for my situation and was happy for me. He said, ‘I know this is what you wanted, so I’m happy for you.’ So that was nice of him to do that and say that. That meant a lot.

Q. How do you think the last two weeks of the season affected him?

A. He never really let on how tough it was. He just always talked about the next game. That’s how we kept it. We wanted to get to the next game and hope the next game would be the one to get us back on track.

Q. You worked closely with Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum in particular. How has Jaylen grown since he arrived?

A. I think he’s continuously tried to add little things to his game. It might not be noticeable but he’s doing it in flashes, and I think it’ll go from a flash to a habit. He loves to work, loves to get in the gym and stay in the gym. He’ll jump into different groups. Let’s say Gordon and Semi [Ojeyleye] are working on different reads, JB will just ask to jump in. Or if Terry [Rozier] is working on something, he may say, ‘Hey, T-Ro, can I work with you?’ He’s just kind of adding little bits at a time and still he’s constantly learning.

Q. Did you have to give him some extra encouragement when he had a slow start this season?

A. Yeah, I did, because he’s hard on himself. His confidence was probably shook, because he wasn’t playing great and he wanted to really come out and make a difference. He started pressing a little bit. You don’t have to say much to him, but he really stepped back and saw what things needed to be done and how he could change it, and he went out and did it. When he moved to the bench, he never complained about it. He was just about the team. I’m sure it might have been upsetting but he never let that be known.

Q. What changed for him later in the season?

A. He kept it simple and played off other guys and found different ways to be successful, or how he could interact with different guys on the floor better. We needed him to get to the basket and he got his transition baskets or drives from the perimeter, and in the playoffs he really focused on his free-throws, so that gave him more confidence to get to the basket.

Q. Tatum comes across as so mild-mannered. How did you gauge his fire and intensity?

**A.**He’s quiet, but he opens up once he feels comfortable and knows you have his best interests at heart. I constantly say to him that he still needs to be more vocal to let his feelings known a bit. That’s something I think he needs to keep working on. He has an engaging personality, and guys like and respect him, and I think him using his voice is going to be of even greater benefit as he continues to step into a bigger and bigger role.

Q. After his great rookie year, expectations surged entering this season. Did that seem to weigh on him?

A. I think his expectations for himself were high. He puts a lot on himself. And then the expectations for our team were really high. I think the pressure probably did get to him at times. But he never really panicked. Even when things weren’t going great, when he’d go through a shooting slump or something or there was a chance for his confidence to waver, he kept it consistent.

And opponents were gunning for him this year. I thought people were taking the challenge to him. That’s something he’s going to have to learn from. The best players are going to get the best shot from the best defenders. So, be ready. This is probably his first time going through it at this level. You’re going to get some guys that are trying to prove a point.

Q. Can Tatum and Brown both become all-stars?

A. I think they can be. They’re going to continue to get better. They make plays for each other sometimes and you can see the flashes of it. And the more they put that together, the more they can use each other and play off each other and play off the other guys that fit around them, the more the team is going to have success. And the more success we have as a team, that’s when those accolades come.

Q. You coached with Stevens at Butler, what’s something different you learned from him during this second stint together?

A. The amount of preparation, the way he goes about it, and to see it more up close. In college there’s a lot of time we’re apart and you don’t really see Brad’s preparation going into a game. But to see how he goes on these quick turnarounds when you’re playing a game and flying to the next game, he doesn’t waste time. The moments that are open he uses to get ready for the next game while still being locked in on the game that is about to happen that afternoon. That stuff is amazing to me.
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Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2019, 04:03:37 PM »

Offline Never Nervous Pervis

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I don't know why people care so much that Brad 'force fed' Hayward minutes to start the season. It doesn't really matter what the other players thought, he was a recent all-star on a max contract; he needed to be playing major minutes to help shed the rust.

CBS not taking more of an authoritarian attitude when players egos got too big may be one thing, but playing Hayward lots of minutes was absolutely the right thing to do. It was the only way we were ever going to have a chance of succeeding.

Well said. I also believe the "Hayward was force fed major minutes early" is a slightly distorted narrative. He averaged 24.5, 27.5 and 26.5 minutes the first three months of the season. Those are 6th man numbers, not starter's minutes.

And those minutes didn't really come at the expense of Tatum and Brown. Tatum's minutes were steady throughout the year (he consistently averaged 30+ minutes a game) and when Brown struggled early and was sent to the bench (along with Hayward), Smart became the starter at the two.

Jaylen's minutes over the course of the year were down 4+ minutes a game from last year, but that was a reflection of his poor play to begin the year.

When Jaylen stepped it up post-Christmas, I do think Brad should have returned him to the starting lineup; not sure that was Hayward's fault, though. He came off the bench the rest of the year.

Yeah, I think the guy who unexpectedly consumed minutes that might have gone to others was Morris.  After playing a reasonable off-the-bench 1447 minutes for us in 2018-19 he jumped way up to playing 2091 minutes this last year.  That was the 4th most minutes on the team.    That came at direct expense of minutes for guys like Jaylen, Gordon & Baynes and indirectly to Rozier.    And that seems strange especially considering Morris is almost certainly gone in free agency this summer.

To a lesser extent, Smart also ended up getting more minutes than I think was expected at the start of the year.   Yes, he got a new contract.  But he was expected to continue to come off the bench.  And with the return of Hayward and Jaylen set to take up a lot of minutes at the 2, it was hard to anticipate Smart jumping up from 1614 minutes the previous year to a hefty 2200 minutes this last year.

Between the two of them, Morris and Smart ended up playing almost 1000 minutes more than one might have expected going into the season.   And those were minutes that I think a lot of folks (players included) probably thought were going to go to guys like Baynes, Jaylen, Rozier and even deeper bench guys like Theis & Semi.

Excellent points. TP.

Morris was one of our more consistent players early on, but once his shooting cooled off, he should have returned to a bench role. His offense is better suited for the second unit.

Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2019, 05:12:37 PM »

Offline Spicoli

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Brad Stevens is a mediocre coach. He almost had me fooled in game 1 of the bucks series but he reverted back to his true self. Here are some issues i have with him:

1. He ices his own players. A guy can come out red hot scoring 5 buckets in a row, but at an exact minute mark in the quarter that guy will be subbed out because Stevens must not deviate from his robotic sustitutions. Once the guy comes back into the game he's no longer on fire and what could have easily been a 30 point night is now a 18 point night.

2. His defensive scheme is terrible against the pick and roll. Any team that runs pick and roll will torch the Celtics. This is why you see guys like Lou Williams, Jamal Murray, Devin Booker, and Kemba Walker go absolutely ham against this defense.

3. He never returned to the opening night lineup, even when the team was facing elimination. Yes this lineup started poorly but how do you go an entire season and not at least try to go back to that lineup? Those were your 5 best players by far and you never even try to go back to it? Ridiculous.

4. Not playing Williams was ridiculous. The kid is raw, but he blocks every shot near the rim. How do you not at least have him over Theis or Yabusele on the depth chart? Those guys are not NBA players.

5. He allows the other teams to go on massive runs without calling a timeout. What coach in his right mind would continue to allow 20-5 runs without doing anything about it? It's insanity, but Stevens does this on a game to game basis.

6. He cannot manage egos and personalities, which is important in the NBA seeing as though it's a star driven league.

7. He allows his players free reign on offense to jack bad shot after bad shot with no consequence.

Watching the brand of basketball that Toronto, Philly, and Milwaukee play makes me depressed. The Celtics are so far away from that level. Even with Kyrie and AD i do not like this teams chances of winning a title because of the system being run here.

Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2019, 06:09:06 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Hope he finally stops tinkering with substitutions and rotations for half the season to "build data". Its a big chemistry killer that he does every year repeatedly.

this coming year will be his 6th season, chemistry has been an issue for 1 season.  ALL of the other seasons the team overachieved.

hes proven he can do a lot with his 'data' when he gets it, so you should be very optimistic about him being able to fix the problem from this season instead of harping on him to change everything

1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

Yeah, that 30-10 start in 2017-2018 (including 16 in a row early) was a huge problem, especially without Hayward.
Are you kidding you remember how they barely won most of those games and BS called the streak fools gold. They struggled.

You are what your record says you are. - Bill Parcells
Unless you are not and you get beat by a lower seed.

LOL at saying 30-10 is struggling. That's priceless.
Winning games with a ton of luck doesn't count as playing well. The record isnt the sign of struggles I am talking about. Its the play not the standings. Do you even remember how crazy some of those games went? Teams can play bad or poorly and still win especially if you had some luck. How many games has this team consistently played poorly for whole quarters especially 1st and 3rds but still won, are we going to say they had a great game? The answer is no. The rotations and subsitions haven't been good is my issue. How many times has this team been dominated on the boards and BS has three guards line ups, you forget that blunder he repeats over and over? This is basketball coaching choices that he is messing up often. Not utilizing length, cutters, or simply controlling the playing time of guys that aren't following the game prlan.

Let's get back on track here. You said:

Quote
the 1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

And I simply pointed out, 30-10 is not starting in a hole. Everything else at this point is moot.
It's in a hole for chemistry. You want to come with cheap reply that's on you. But I have made the point that stands. The tinkering doesn't help the chemistry and doesn't help for winning basketball. Pro players don't want lesser players taking minutes or being in bad mix matches to collect data. It needs to stop. The avg C''s fan can tell you the teams best 8 players should play and with whom and this guy can't get it right. Excuse it if you want but don't tell me it doesn't hurt the team.

Your point does not stand. We were the best team in the Eastern Conference last season, we won games at a alarmingly high rate to begin the year (without our big free agent acquisition), and there were no chemistry issues in 2017-2018. You're grasping at straws.
C's weren't the best team in the East that year.

Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2019, 06:12:31 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Hope he finally stops tinkering with substitutions and rotations for half the season to "build data". Its a big chemistry killer that he does every year repeatedly.

this coming year will be his 6th season, chemistry has been an issue for 1 season.  ALL of the other seasons the team overachieved.

hes proven he can do a lot with his 'data' when he gets it, so you should be very optimistic about him being able to fix the problem from this season instead of harping on him to change everything

1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

Yeah, that 30-10 start in 2017-2018 (including 16 in a row early) was a huge problem, especially without Hayward.
Are you kidding you remember how they barely won most of those games and BS called the streak fools gold. They struggled.

You are what your record says you are. - Bill Parcells
Unless you are not and you get beat by a lower seed.

LOL at saying 30-10 is struggling. That's priceless.
Winning games with a ton of luck doesn't count as playing well. The record isnt the sign of struggles I am talking about. Its the play not the standings. Do you even remember how crazy some of those games went? Teams can play bad or poorly and still win especially if you had some luck. How many games has this team consistently played poorly for whole quarters especially 1st and 3rds but still won, are we going to say they had a great game? The answer is no. The rotations and subsitions haven't been good is my issue. How many times has this team been dominated on the boards and BS has three guards line ups, you forget that blunder he repeats over and over? This is basketball coaching choices that he is messing up often. Not utilizing length, cutters, or simply controlling the playing time of guys that aren't following the game prlan.

Let's get back on track here. You said:

Quote
the 1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

And I simply pointed out, 30-10 is not starting in a hole. Everything else at this point is moot.
It's in a hole for chemistry. You want to come with cheap reply that's on you. But I have made the point that stands. The tinkering doesn't help the chemistry and doesn't help for winning basketball. Pro players don't want lesser players taking minutes or being in bad mix matches to collect data. It needs to stop. The avg C's fan can tell you the teams best 8 players should play more and with whom and this guy can't get it right. Excuse it if you want but don't tell me it doesn't hurt the team.

So the chemistry problem this year had to do with tinkering with lineups and not players developing huge egos after the post season run and not wanting to go back to lesser roles?  Just trying to understand the logic because as far as I’m concerned chemistry has been an issue 1 season out of 5 for Brad.
You are wrong, from IT to Crowder to Turner there have been issues at times with chemistry. They finished okay but it was a lot of chaos and guys even then complained about roles and minutes. It's like everyone is focused on it this year because they expected a better outcome. But there were problems.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 06:28:43 PM by Csfan1984 »

Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2019, 07:10:16 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Hope he finally stops tinkering with substitutions and rotations for half the season to "build data". Its a big chemistry killer that he does every year repeatedly.

this coming year will be his 6th season, chemistry has been an issue for 1 season.  ALL of the other seasons the team overachieved.

hes proven he can do a lot with his 'data' when he gets it, so you should be very optimistic about him being able to fix the problem from this season instead of harping on him to change everything
1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

Yeah, that 30-10 start in 2017-2018 (including 16 in a row early) was a huge problem, especially without Hayward.
Are you kidding you remember how they barely won most of those games and BS called the streak fools gold. They struggled.

You are what your record says you are. - Bill Parcells
Unless you are not and you get beat by a lower seed.

LOL at saying 30-10 is struggling. That's priceless.
Winning games with a ton of luck doesn't count as playing well. The record isnt the sign of struggles I am talking about. Its the play not the standings. Do you even remember how crazy some of those games went? Teams can play bad or poorly and still win especially if you had some luck. How many games has this team consistently played poorly for whole quarters especially 1st and 3rds but still won, are we going to say they had a great game? The answer is no. The rotations and subsitions haven't been good is my issue. How many times has this team been dominated on the boards and BS has three guards line ups, you forget that blunder he repeats over and over? This is basketball coaching choices that he is messing up often. Not utilizing length, cutters, or simply controlling the playing time of guys that aren't following the game prlan.
If this was just you going through some serious mental gymnastics to create some kind of revisionist history, that's one thing. But this is just a fairy tale that has no place in reality. That team was rolling and feeding off the "we vs the world" mentality. Their defense was off the hook, outstanding. They never gave up and came back on many occasions to win games. They were playing likes champions.

Not sure what team you were watching but it wasn't the Celtics post Hayward's injury.

Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2019, 07:52:09 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Hope he finally stops tinkering with substitutions and rotations for half the season to "build data". Its a big chemistry killer that he does every year repeatedly.

this coming year will be his 6th season, chemistry has been an issue for 1 season.  ALL of the other seasons the team overachieved.

hes proven he can do a lot with his 'data' when he gets it, so you should be very optimistic about him being able to fix the problem from this season instead of harping on him to change everything
1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

Yeah, that 30-10 start in 2017-2018 (including 16 in a row early) was a huge problem, especially without Hayward.
Are you kidding you remember how they barely won most of those games and BS called the streak fools gold. They struggled.

You are what your record says you are. - Bill Parcells
Unless you are not and you get beat by a lower seed.

LOL at saying 30-10 is struggling. That's priceless.
Winning games with a ton of luck doesn't count as playing well. The record isnt the sign of struggles I am talking about. Its the play not the standings. Do you even remember how crazy some of those games went? Teams can play bad or poorly and still win especially if you had some luck. How many games has this team consistently played poorly for whole quarters especially 1st and 3rds but still won, are we going to say they had a great game? The answer is no. The rotations and subsitions haven't been good is my issue. How many times has this team been dominated on the boards and BS has three guards line ups, you forget that blunder he repeats over and over? This is basketball coaching choices that he is messing up often. Not utilizing length, cutters, or simply controlling the playing time of guys that aren't following the game prlan.
If this was just you going through some serious mental gymnastics to create some kind of revisionist history, that's one thing. But this is just a fairy tale that has no place in reality. That team was rolling and feeding off the "we vs the world" mentality. Their defense was off the hook, outstanding. They never gave up and came back on many occasions to win games. They were playing likes champions.

Not sure what team you were watching but it wasn't the Celtics post Hayward's injury.
What do you mean revisionist you just wrote it yourself. They had to come back to win on many occasions.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 07:58:12 PM by Csfan1984 »

Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2019, 08:11:38 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Hope he finally stops tinkering with substitutions and rotations for half the season to "build data". Its a big chemistry killer that he does every year repeatedly.

this coming year will be his 6th season, chemistry has been an issue for 1 season.  ALL of the other seasons the team overachieved.

hes proven he can do a lot with his 'data' when he gets it, so you should be very optimistic about him being able to fix the problem from this season instead of harping on him to change everything
1st half's of seasons they have struggled due to his tinkering each year. Just because they pulled it out a few second halfs doesn't mean it's not a problem. You are starting in the hole.

Yeah, that 30-10 start in 2017-2018 (including 16 in a row early) was a huge problem, especially without Hayward.
Are you kidding you remember how they barely won most of those games and BS called the streak fools gold. They struggled.

You are what your record says you are. - Bill Parcells
Unless you are not and you get beat by a lower seed.

LOL at saying 30-10 is struggling. That's priceless.
Winning games with a ton of luck doesn't count as playing well. The record isnt the sign of struggles I am talking about. Its the play not the standings. Do you even remember how crazy some of those games went? Teams can play bad or poorly and still win especially if you had some luck. How many games has this team consistently played poorly for whole quarters especially 1st and 3rds but still won, are we going to say they had a great game? The answer is no. The rotations and subsitions haven't been good is my issue. How many times has this team been dominated on the boards and BS has three guards line ups, you forget that blunder he repeats over and over? This is basketball coaching choices that he is messing up often. Not utilizing length, cutters, or simply controlling the playing time of guys that aren't following the game prlan.
If this was just you going through some serious mental gymnastics to create some kind of revisionist history, that's one thing. But this is just a fairy tale that has no place in reality. That team was rolling and feeding off the "we vs the world" mentality. Their defense was off the hook, outstanding. They never gave up and came back on many occasions to win games. They were playing likes champions.

Not sure what team you were watching but it wasn't the Celtics post Hayward's injury.
What do you mean revisionist you just wrote it yourself. They had to come back to win on many occasions.
Coming back from being down in games are what the best teams do. If you think championship teams go out and win every game going away, never falling behind, then I now understand your fairy tale view of that team.

Hate to break it to you but every team falls behind by good amounts in just about every game. The really good to great teams, they come back and win those games. If that team was playing poorly, they would have lost those games.

Instead, after the first 2 losses, the team held 25 of their next 42 opponents to less than 100 points scored, had the best defense in the league by a wide margin, all while going 34-8. That team was playing the best basketball a Celtic team had been playing while being coached by Stevens.

Sorry, but you are just completely wrong about how that team was playing

Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2019, 10:22:48 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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Aside from the dysfunction problems beginning with Hayward, when you talk about Stevens, you can't get away from talking about the 3P shot, where just about everybody including the ballboy has the green light to shoot if they are far enough away from the basket.

I just heard a nice critique of the 3P shot which pointed out something the media never gets into--possessions.

Ever notice that when the Celtics are bombs away 3s and hitting about 20% , they keep on bombing away in the hope more will go in the basket.  A miss is very often accompanied by an easy basket by the opponent--a layup --because the Celtics are caught on the perimeter downcourt and not near the paint for the rebound.

The analytics are simple: You hit 4 for 12 3s --the same as hitting 6 for 12 2s.  What most regard as the standard--you must hit 33% 3s for 50% 2s.  But you're missing  8 3s vs 6 2s to make the same number of points! That's two more possessions for your opponents  if you shoot 3s. That's giving your opponent too many possessions--often easy ones. 36 3s, that would be 6 possessions. Even more if you shoot less than 33% on 3s. Game lost.


So there you have the weakness of 3P disease. Why I think the Celtics need more balance to their game if they are ever going to win anything.

I'm uncomfortable with the amount of critical thinking backed up by facts in this post.  Mods?   

Re: Shrewsberry: Stevens Really Beat Himself up Over Last Season
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2019, 10:32:20 PM »

Offline Scintan

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"This season’s struggles, however, remain somewhat confounding for the coaching staff. Shrewsberry said it was frustrating that the Celtics were unable to identify the root of their struggles. If they had, he said, perhaps they could have found an elixir before it was too late."

Most people could see the problems easily enough.  So, absolutely, the Celtics should start with figuring out why they were so blind.

Yes, because the people who spend day in and day out with and around the team don't know as much as some posters on a message board who probably aren't misinformed at all.

First, sometimes outsiders can see what those too close to a situation cannot.

Second, sometimes the people who "spend day in and day out with and around the team" screw up.  That's something that the H.C. has admitted he did.

Third, people were warning about the possibility that what came to pass might come to pass, because it was obvious from the start that such was a possibility.

So you might want to back off on the needless snark.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.