Poll

Do you regret the IT4 trade?

Yes, because we should be tanking / I prefer Justice Winslow
Yes, because he's a bad fit / too flawed
Yes, because I am mentally ill
Yes, because I don't want the Celtics to succeed
No
Does it matter? I'm trolling to get a reaction from Celtics fans

Author Topic: Do you wish sometimes the IT4 trade never happened?  (Read 9280 times)

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Re: Do you wish sometimes the IT4 trade never happened?
« Reply #90 on: March 02, 2017, 11:00:11 AM »

Offline moiso

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Hogwash.

players, particularly young ones, need to earn their court time not have it given to them.  teams that forcefeed their young players court time do so because they have no other options.  I do believe there was an issue when Doc was here about playing the younger guys but not so much under Brad. 

Smart has earned more time as he's improved.  He wasn't good enough for heavy minutes when he was drafted. Brown is getting more time as he improves.  he's not good enough for heavy minutes right now.  Many would argue that Rozier isn't ready for the time he's already getting never mind getting more minutes as you would suggest all young players should get.  Whoever Danny takes next year will not be ready for heavy minutes starting the season but may improve to get more minutes as the season progresses. 

There's a bunch of top picks that have never justified your philosophy of automatic minutes just because they were drafted high.  we have enough depth in the backcourt and wing that if Danny drafts someone else that plays those positions they won't have to be pressed into heavy minutes.  Not so sure the same luxury will exist for Zizic and Yabu if they join the team next year.
Marcus Smart played 27 mpg as a rookie.  He played 27.3 mpg in his second year.  He jumped up to a whopping 31.1 mpg this year.  This notion that Smart wasn't playing just isn't borne in reality. 

Players, especially young ones, get exponentionally better when they play more minutes.  Sure playing those minutes on a better team is better than playing them on a poorer team, but young guys have to play to reach their full potential.  Even super young raw ones perform better with more playing time.  But here's the thing, look at every single all time great, you know the special room players, they all played a ton of minutes as a rookie.  They almost all had terrible records and made a lot of mistakes, but they all played and all played a lot.  The guys that reach true greatness, do so because they aren't brought along slowly and barely play as rookies.  They do so because they are given as many minutes as they can reasonably play and are allowed to work through and learn from their mistakes.  That is how you reach greatness in the NBA.

Exactly

Did the Spurs bench Duncan? Make him earn his min

There will be a logjam... There is already a logjam
Duncan went to school for 4 years and was awesome from the moment he was drafted.  Brown was 19 years old and had a lot to learn when we drafted him.  Not the same thing.

The true superstars are always going to turn into superstars regardless of how many minutes they play as a rookie.  Hell,  Blake Griffin skipped his first year entirely.  Embiid skipped his first two years entirely and he's a superstar if he ever happens to get healthy.   So no, I don't buy that being force fed minutes works.  Didn't work out very well for Okafor, did it?  Look at his horribly bad habits.

Re: Do you wish sometimes the IT4 trade never happened?
« Reply #91 on: March 02, 2017, 11:02:03 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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No of course not.  That is just silly.

I will say this, without that trade, Boston likely doesn't make the playoffs two years ago and thus would likely have Winslow or Turner instead of Rozier.  That would have been the only real positive.

Can you imagine the state of the blog if we'd drafted Winslow right now? We probably would have Dunn in place of Jaylen, and would be picking mid-lottery with no end in sight to losing.

Fascinating how soon people forgot what the Draft Savant was willing to give up to pick Winslow.

But I digress. We're supposed to forget all of Ainge's draft mistakes. Doesn't fit the narrative.
Criticising Ainge for a trade thet he didn't make is ridiculous.

And my point is proven. Who didn't make that trade?

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4721184/the-one-that-got-away-celtics-get-up-close-look-at-justise-winslow

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Re: Do you wish sometimes the IT4 trade never happened?
« Reply #92 on: March 02, 2017, 11:02:08 AM »

Online Donoghus

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Hogwash.

players, particularly young ones, need to earn their court time not have it given to them.  teams that forcefeed their young players court time do so because they have no other options.  I do believe there was an issue when Doc was here about playing the younger guys but not so much under Brad. 

Smart has earned more time as he's improved.  He wasn't good enough for heavy minutes when he was drafted. Brown is getting more time as he improves.  he's not good enough for heavy minutes right now.  Many would argue that Rozier isn't ready for the time he's already getting never mind getting more minutes as you would suggest all young players should get.  Whoever Danny takes next year will not be ready for heavy minutes starting the season but may improve to get more minutes as the season progresses. 

There's a bunch of top picks that have never justified your philosophy of automatic minutes just because they were drafted high.  we have enough depth in the backcourt and wing that if Danny drafts someone else that plays those positions they won't have to be pressed into heavy minutes.  Not so sure the same luxury will exist for Zizic and Yabu if they join the team next year.
Marcus Smart played 27 mpg as a rookie.  He played 27.3 mpg in his second year.  He jumped up to a whopping 31.1 mpg this year.  This notion that Smart wasn't playing just isn't borne in reality. 

Players, especially young ones, get exponentionally better when they play more minutes.  Sure playing those minutes on a better team is better than playing them on a poorer team, but young guys have to play to reach their full potential.  Even super young raw ones perform better with more playing time.  But here's the thing, look at every single all time great, you know the special room players, they all played a ton of minutes as a rookie.  They almost all had terrible records and made a lot of mistakes, but they all played and all played a lot.  The guys that reach true greatness, do so because they aren't brought along slowly and barely play as rookies.  They do so because they are given as many minutes as they can reasonably play and are allowed to work through and learn from their mistakes.  That is how you reach greatness in the NBA.

Exactly

Did the Spurs bench Duncan? Make him earn his min

There will be a logjam... There is already a logjam
Duncan went to school for 4 years and was awesome from the moment he was drafted.  Brown was 19 years old and had a lot to learn when we drafted him.  Not the same thing.

The true superstars are always going to turn into superstars regardless of how many minutes they play as a rookie.  Hell,  Blake Griffen skipped his first year entirely.  Embiid skipped his first two years entirely and he's a superstar if he ever happens to get healthy.   So no, I don't buy that being force fed minutes works.  Didn't work out very well for Okafor, did it?  Look at his horribly bad habits.

It's certainly not cut & dried to go one way or another in regards to minutes as a rookie.   A lot of it really just comes down to the ultimate skill level of the individual which usually rises to the top at some point or another.


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Re: Do you wish sometimes the IT4 trade never happened?
« Reply #93 on: March 02, 2017, 11:38:50 AM »

Online Moranis

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Hogwash.

players, particularly young ones, need to earn their court time not have it given to them.  teams that forcefeed their young players court time do so because they have no other options.  I do believe there was an issue when Doc was here about playing the younger guys but not so much under Brad. 

Smart has earned more time as he's improved.  He wasn't good enough for heavy minutes when he was drafted. Brown is getting more time as he improves.  he's not good enough for heavy minutes right now.  Many would argue that Rozier isn't ready for the time he's already getting never mind getting more minutes as you would suggest all young players should get.  Whoever Danny takes next year will not be ready for heavy minutes starting the season but may improve to get more minutes as the season progresses. 

There's a bunch of top picks that have never justified your philosophy of automatic minutes just because they were drafted high.  we have enough depth in the backcourt and wing that if Danny drafts someone else that plays those positions they won't have to be pressed into heavy minutes.  Not so sure the same luxury will exist for Zizic and Yabu if they join the team next year.
Marcus Smart played 27 mpg as a rookie.  He played 27.3 mpg in his second year.  He jumped up to a whopping 31.1 mpg this year.  This notion that Smart wasn't playing just isn't borne in reality. 

Players, especially young ones, get exponentionally better when they play more minutes.  Sure playing those minutes on a better team is better than playing them on a poorer team, but young guys have to play to reach their full potential.  Even super young raw ones perform better with more playing time.  But here's the thing, look at every single all time great, you know the special room players, they all played a ton of minutes as a rookie.  They almost all had terrible records and made a lot of mistakes, but they all played and all played a lot.  The guys that reach true greatness, do so because they aren't brought along slowly and barely play as rookies.  They do so because they are given as many minutes as they can reasonably play and are allowed to work through and learn from their mistakes.  That is how you reach greatness in the NBA.

Exactly

Did the Spurs bench Duncan? Make him earn his min

There will be a logjam... There is already a logjam
Duncan went to school for 4 years and was awesome from the moment he was drafted.  Brown was 19 years old and had a lot to learn when we drafted him.  Not the same thing.

The true superstars are always going to turn into superstars regardless of how many minutes they play as a rookie.  Hell,  Blake Griffin skipped his first year entirely.  Embiid skipped his first two years entirely and he's a superstar if he ever happens to get healthy.   So no, I don't buy that being force fed minutes works.  Didn't work out very well for Okafor, did it?  Look at his horribly bad habits.
find a super raw 18/19/20 year old that barely played as a rookie and went on to greatness.  The only one I can think of is Jermaine O'Neal and using greatness with him is a bit of a stretch (he was certainly very good for a long time, just not sure he was ever great). 

If you can't find minutes for a guy, it probably means he isn't very good and won't ever be very good.  But as we've seen from this super raw Jaylen Brown, the more minutes you get the faster you improve.  He has shown that over the last few weeks with Bradley out and his minutes up.  You just get better at a much faster rate when you play. 
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Re: Do you wish sometimes the IT4 trade never happened?
« Reply #94 on: March 02, 2017, 11:45:43 AM »

Online slamtheking

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Hogwash.

players, particularly young ones, need to earn their court time not have it given to them.  teams that forcefeed their young players court time do so because they have no other options.  I do believe there was an issue when Doc was here about playing the younger guys but not so much under Brad. 

Smart has earned more time as he's improved.  He wasn't good enough for heavy minutes when he was drafted. Brown is getting more time as he improves.  he's not good enough for heavy minutes right now.  Many would argue that Rozier isn't ready for the time he's already getting never mind getting more minutes as you would suggest all young players should get.  Whoever Danny takes next year will not be ready for heavy minutes starting the season but may improve to get more minutes as the season progresses. 

There's a bunch of top picks that have never justified your philosophy of automatic minutes just because they were drafted high.  we have enough depth in the backcourt and wing that if Danny drafts someone else that plays those positions they won't have to be pressed into heavy minutes.  Not so sure the same luxury will exist for Zizic and Yabu if they join the team next year.
Marcus Smart played 27 mpg as a rookie.  He played 27.3 mpg in his second year.  He jumped up to a whopping 31.1 mpg this year.  This notion that Smart wasn't playing just isn't borne in reality. 

Players, especially young ones, get exponentionally better when they play more minutes.  Sure playing those minutes on a better team is better than playing them on a poorer team, but young guys have to play to reach their full potential.  Even super young raw ones perform better with more playing time.  But here's the thing, look at every single all time great, you know the special room players, they all played a ton of minutes as a rookie.  They almost all had terrible records and made a lot of mistakes, but they all played and all played a lot.  The guys that reach true greatness, do so because they aren't brought along slowly and barely play as rookies.  They do so because they are given as many minutes as they can reasonably play and are allowed to work through and learn from their mistakes.  That is how you reach greatness in the NBA.

Exactly

Did the Spurs bench Duncan? Make him earn his min

There will be a logjam... There is already a logjam

if the new guy is better than other people on the floor, he'll get the time.  if not, he'll sit or get limited minutes.  simple concept.  forcefeeding players time for the sake of playing them is not a great strategy and is often employed by teams lacking decent players hence why most top picks get lots of playing time --> their team stinks. 

If Duncan is your sole example of a young player deserving time, try again.  Try not to point to Lebron either.  Duncan was a 4-year college player that had a well-developed game coming into the NBA and had Robinson as a top-quality mentor.  Lebron was/is a generational talent.  Look at the non-superstar talents and you'll see they need time to develop or in some cases never develop. 

Re: Do you wish sometimes the IT4 trade never happened?
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2017, 11:47:57 AM »

Online slamtheking

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Hogwash.

players, particularly young ones, need to earn their court time not have it given to them.  teams that forcefeed their young players court time do so because they have no other options.  I do believe there was an issue when Doc was here about playing the younger guys but not so much under Brad. 

Smart has earned more time as he's improved.  He wasn't good enough for heavy minutes when he was drafted. Brown is getting more time as he improves.  he's not good enough for heavy minutes right now.  Many would argue that Rozier isn't ready for the time he's already getting never mind getting more minutes as you would suggest all young players should get.  Whoever Danny takes next year will not be ready for heavy minutes starting the season but may improve to get more minutes as the season progresses. 

There's a bunch of top picks that have never justified your philosophy of automatic minutes just because they were drafted high.  we have enough depth in the backcourt and wing that if Danny drafts someone else that plays those positions they won't have to be pressed into heavy minutes.  Not so sure the same luxury will exist for Zizic and Yabu if they join the team next year.
Marcus Smart played 27 mpg as a rookie.  He played 27.3 mpg in his second year.  He jumped up to a whopping 31.1 mpg this year.  This notion that Smart wasn't playing just isn't borne in reality. 

Players, especially young ones, get exponentionally better when they play more minutes.  Sure playing those minutes on a better team is better than playing them on a poorer team, but young guys have to play to reach their full potential.  Even super young raw ones perform better with more playing time.  But here's the thing, look at every single all time great, you know the special room players, they all played a ton of minutes as a rookie.  They almost all had terrible records and made a lot of mistakes, but they all played and all played a lot.  The guys that reach true greatness, do so because they aren't brought along slowly and barely play as rookies.  They do so because they are given as many minutes as they can reasonably play and are allowed to work through and learn from their mistakes.  That is how you reach greatness in the NBA.

Exactly

Did the Spurs bench Duncan? Make him earn his min

There will be a logjam... There is already a logjam
Duncan went to school for 4 years and was awesome from the moment he was drafted.  Brown was 19 years old and had a lot to learn when we drafted him.  Not the same thing.

The true superstars are always going to turn into superstars regardless of how many minutes they play as a rookie.  Hell,  Blake Griffin skipped his first year entirely.  Embiid skipped his first two years entirely and he's a superstar if he ever happens to get healthy.   So no, I don't buy that being force fed minutes works.  Didn't work out very well for Okafor, did it?  Look at his horribly bad habits.
find a super raw 18/19/20 year old that barely played as a rookie and went on to greatness.  The only one I can think of is Jermaine O'Neal and using greatness with him is a bit of a stretch (he was certainly very good for a long time, just not sure he was ever great). 

If you can't find minutes for a guy, it probably means he isn't very good and won't ever be very good.  But as we've seen from this super raw Jaylen Brown, the more minutes you get the faster you improve.  He has shown that over the last few weeks with Bradley out and his minutes up.  You just get better at a much faster rate when you play. 
there's more players force fed minutes that didn't turn out to be superstars or very good.  getting playing time doesn't automatically equate to a player becoming great or even good. 

Re: Do you wish sometimes the IT4 trade never happened?
« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2017, 12:00:41 PM »

Online Moranis

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Hogwash.

players, particularly young ones, need to earn their court time not have it given to them.  teams that forcefeed their young players court time do so because they have no other options.  I do believe there was an issue when Doc was here about playing the younger guys but not so much under Brad. 

Smart has earned more time as he's improved.  He wasn't good enough for heavy minutes when he was drafted. Brown is getting more time as he improves.  he's not good enough for heavy minutes right now.  Many would argue that Rozier isn't ready for the time he's already getting never mind getting more minutes as you would suggest all young players should get.  Whoever Danny takes next year will not be ready for heavy minutes starting the season but may improve to get more minutes as the season progresses. 

There's a bunch of top picks that have never justified your philosophy of automatic minutes just because they were drafted high.  we have enough depth in the backcourt and wing that if Danny drafts someone else that plays those positions they won't have to be pressed into heavy minutes.  Not so sure the same luxury will exist for Zizic and Yabu if they join the team next year.
Marcus Smart played 27 mpg as a rookie.  He played 27.3 mpg in his second year.  He jumped up to a whopping 31.1 mpg this year.  This notion that Smart wasn't playing just isn't borne in reality. 

Players, especially young ones, get exponentionally better when they play more minutes.  Sure playing those minutes on a better team is better than playing them on a poorer team, but young guys have to play to reach their full potential.  Even super young raw ones perform better with more playing time.  But here's the thing, look at every single all time great, you know the special room players, they all played a ton of minutes as a rookie.  They almost all had terrible records and made a lot of mistakes, but they all played and all played a lot.  The guys that reach true greatness, do so because they aren't brought along slowly and barely play as rookies.  They do so because they are given as many minutes as they can reasonably play and are allowed to work through and learn from their mistakes.  That is how you reach greatness in the NBA.

Exactly

Did the Spurs bench Duncan? Make him earn his min

There will be a logjam... There is already a logjam
Duncan went to school for 4 years and was awesome from the moment he was drafted.  Brown was 19 years old and had a lot to learn when we drafted him.  Not the same thing.

The true superstars are always going to turn into superstars regardless of how many minutes they play as a rookie.  Hell,  Blake Griffin skipped his first year entirely.  Embiid skipped his first two years entirely and he's a superstar if he ever happens to get healthy.   So no, I don't buy that being force fed minutes works.  Didn't work out very well for Okafor, did it?  Look at his horribly bad habits.
find a super raw 18/19/20 year old that barely played as a rookie and went on to greatness.  The only one I can think of is Jermaine O'Neal and using greatness with him is a bit of a stretch (he was certainly very good for a long time, just not sure he was ever great). 

If you can't find minutes for a guy, it probably means he isn't very good and won't ever be very good.  But as we've seen from this super raw Jaylen Brown, the more minutes you get the faster you improve.  He has shown that over the last few weeks with Bradley out and his minutes up.  You just get better at a much faster rate when you play. 
there's more players force fed minutes that didn't turn out to be superstars or very good.  getting playing time doesn't automatically equate to a player becoming great or even good.
of course not, and I never said or implied otherwise.  All I'm saying is the more minutes a player gets and the earlier he gets them, the faster that player will reach his peak, whatever that may be.  You could forcefeed me 30 mpg and I'm never going to be great, but I would get a lot better a lot faster.
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Re: Do you wish sometimes the IT4 trade never happened?
« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2017, 12:26:13 PM »

Offline bdm860

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Hogwash.

players, particularly young ones, need to earn their court time not have it given to them.  teams that forcefeed their young players court time do so because they have no other options.  I do believe there was an issue when Doc was here about playing the younger guys but not so much under Brad. 

Smart has earned more time as he's improved.  He wasn't good enough for heavy minutes when he was drafted. Brown is getting more time as he improves.  he's not good enough for heavy minutes right now.  Many would argue that Rozier isn't ready for the time he's already getting never mind getting more minutes as you would suggest all young players should get.  Whoever Danny takes next year will not be ready for heavy minutes starting the season but may improve to get more minutes as the season progresses. 

There's a bunch of top picks that have never justified your philosophy of automatic minutes just because they were drafted high.  we have enough depth in the backcourt and wing that if Danny drafts someone else that plays those positions they won't have to be pressed into heavy minutes.  Not so sure the same luxury will exist for Zizic and Yabu if they join the team next year.
Marcus Smart played 27 mpg as a rookie.  He played 27.3 mpg in his second year.  He jumped up to a whopping 31.1 mpg this year.  This notion that Smart wasn't playing just isn't borne in reality. 

Players, especially young ones, get exponentionally better when they play more minutes.  Sure playing those minutes on a better team is better than playing them on a poorer team, but young guys have to play to reach their full potential.  Even super young raw ones perform better with more playing time.  But here's the thing, look at every single all time great, you know the special room players, they all played a ton of minutes as a rookie.  They almost all had terrible records and made a lot of mistakes, but they all played and all played a lot.  The guys that reach true greatness, do so because they aren't brought along slowly and barely play as rookies.  They do so because they are given as many minutes as they can reasonably play and are allowed to work through and learn from their mistakes.  That is how you reach greatness in the NBA.

Exactly

Did the Spurs bench Duncan? Make him earn his min

There will be a logjam... There is already a logjam
Duncan went to school for 4 years and was awesome from the moment he was drafted.  Brown was 19 years old and had a lot to learn when we drafted him.  Not the same thing.

The true superstars are always going to turn into superstars regardless of how many minutes they play as a rookie.  Hell,  Blake Griffin skipped his first year entirely.  Embiid skipped his first two years entirely and he's a superstar if he ever happens to get healthy.   So no, I don't buy that being force fed minutes works.  Didn't work out very well for Okafor, did it?  Look at his horribly bad habits.
find a super raw 18/19/20 year old that barely played as a rookie and went on to greatness.  The only one I can think of is Jermaine O'Neal and using greatness with him is a bit of a stretch (he was certainly very good for a long time, just not sure he was ever great). 

If you can't find minutes for a guy, it probably means he isn't very good and won't ever be very good.  But as we've seen from this super raw Jaylen Brown, the more minutes you get the faster you improve.  He has shown that over the last few weeks with Bradley out and his minutes up.  You just get better at a much faster rate when you play. 
there's more players force fed minutes that didn't turn out to be superstars or very good.  getting playing time doesn't automatically equate to a player becoming great or even good.
of course not, and I never said or implied otherwise.  All I'm saying is the more minutes a player gets and the earlier he gets them, the faster that player will reach his peak, whatever that may be.  You could forcefeed me 30 mpg and I'm never going to be great, but I would get a lot better a lot faster.

How many super raw 18/19/20 year olds with real superstar potential end up on a team trying to win now though as opposed to focusing on developing young talent?

Darko, Jaylen Brown, Otto Porter.  I can't think of too many others.  Usually when you're drafted in the top 5, you're going to a bad team.

For guys like Jermaine O'Neal (and I would add Zach Randolph, Andrew Bynum too with a very loose superstar definition), when you're drafted outside the top 10, you generally go to better teams and it's more of a challenge to get minutes.  Even Kobe only played 15.5mpg as a rookie (though don't know if that's considered "barely played" or not).

I think the sample size is just too small to say how getting minutes impacts a players development during their 18-20 years in the NBA.


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Re: Do you wish sometimes the IT4 trade never happened?
« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2017, 12:36:42 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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No.

Pros:  We have a PG having an MVP-level season.

Cons: Reading multiple threads disrespecting our PG having an MVP-level season

Never thought of IT4 as a pg

He is more like a short sg

Who is 11th in assists.

How many other non-PGs are there? Curry, Lillard, Kyrie, Kemba, Rose, Lowry...
You were so on-fire that I decided to not bother reading the rest of the thread.

Re: Do you wish sometimes the IT4 trade never happened?
« Reply #99 on: March 02, 2017, 12:40:35 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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No of course not.  That is just silly.

I will say this, without that trade, Boston likely doesn't make the playoffs two years ago and thus would likely have Winslow or Turner instead of Rozier.  That would have been the only real positive.

Can you imagine the state of the blog if we'd drafted Winslow right now? We probably would have Dunn in place of Jaylen, and would be picking mid-lottery with no end in sight to losing.

Fascinating how soon people forgot what the Draft Savant was willing to give up to pick Winslow.

But I digress. We're supposed to forget all of Ainge's draft mistakes. Doesn't fit the narrative.
Criticising Ainge for a trade thet he didn't make is ridiculous.

And my point is proven. Who didn't make that trade?

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4721184/the-one-that-got-away-celtics-get-up-close-look-at-justise-winslow

Revisionist history in 3, 2, 1 ...
Well since the trade didn't happen, Boston therefore did not make it.