Author Topic: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition  (Read 18600 times)

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Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #165 on: Today at 01:39:05 PM »

Offline Who

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Kobe is such an interesting case because so many people consider him top 5 all time (even top 3 or at least most top 10).  I personally do not agree with that for him but still crazy to see how far he fell in this draft even on a Celtics forum.  Will be interesting to see how he works in the SIM because I do think efficiency with him can be a bit of a concern.

Kobe is fascinating. I don't think he is top 5 or even top 10 either. Top 15? Probably. Top 20? Definitely.

I also think he derives a lot of his All-Time value from longevity rather than peak performance. He is almost hurt by this format. A single season format.

I thought Kobe's main All-Time ranking value came from being a top 5 player for a full decade. From 2001 or 2002 until 2011 or 2012. Something like that. He was a top 5 player year in year out. Sometimes top 3.

I don't think he ever had that period where he was the clear #1 player in the league for any sustained period of time. Not like Shaq who was unstoppable in the early 2000s. Or LeBron who completely dominated in the late 00s and throughout the 10s.
Kobe was never the best player in the league. Even the year he was MVP he wasn't the best player. 

I mean starting in 90 you basically had

MJ, Hakeem, MJ, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron (for over 10 years), Giannis, Jokic

Only a season or two of transitions in that entire 30+ year time period and I dont think Kobe was the best player in those seasons.  He is better than Pippen, but I think he was similar to him in many ways.

My top ten by tiers (mostly in order)

1 - Lebron, MJ, Kareem
2 - Magic, Wilt, Bill, Bird
3 - TD, Hakeem, Shaq

The next 2 tiers (so 11-16)
4 - Oscar, Curry, Moses
5 -  Dr. J, Kobe, Durant

And the 2 current guys are on their own, but may really be in tier 4 or 5
6 - Jokic, Giannis

I don't know where to put those guys, but Jokic, in particular could move all the way into tier 3 before he is done (and if he wins a couple more titles, tier 2 isnt out of the question).

I don't know how I'd currently rate those 2 guys when compared to Dirk, KG, Baylor, Barkley, Malone, etc. They've had higher peaks, but not quite there with the longevity yet, whichis why I'd tier them alone.

I think SGA is 1 year into a 3-4 year run that is going to put him in your tier 6 above, and I got in on the ground floor. Looking forward to your pick tomorrow. You've got an incredible foundation Mo. Shaq didn't do much during our timeframe, but that year he was an absolute unit.

I think SGA is already in that same tier as Jokic / Giannis.

An MVP and leading a team to a title puts him in rarified company. Few players in league history can match those accolades. 

Plus, he was 2nd in MVP the year before. And 5th the year before that. 1 MVP. 2 top two finishes. 3 top five finishes.

Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #166 on: Today at 02:11:33 PM »

Online smokeablount

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Kobe is such an interesting case because so many people consider him top 5 all time (even top 3 or at least most top 10).  I personally do not agree with that for him but still crazy to see how far he fell in this draft even on a Celtics forum.  Will be interesting to see how he works in the SIM because I do think efficiency with him can be a bit of a concern.

Kobe is fascinating. I don't think he is top 5 or even top 10 either. Top 15? Probably. Top 20? Definitely.

I also think he derives a lot of his All-Time value from longevity rather than peak performance. He is almost hurt by this format. A single season format.

I thought Kobe's main All-Time ranking value came from being a top 5 player for a full decade. From 2001 or 2002 until 2011 or 2012. Something like that. He was a top 5 player year in year out. Sometimes top 3.

I don't think he ever had that period where he was the clear #1 player in the league for any sustained period of time. Not like Shaq who was unstoppable in the early 2000s. Or LeBron who completely dominated in the late 00s and throughout the 10s.
Kobe was never the best player in the league. Even the year he was MVP he wasn't the best player. 

I mean starting in 90 you basically had

MJ, Hakeem, MJ, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron (for over 10 years), Giannis, Jokic

Only a season or two of transitions in that entire 30+ year time period and I dont think Kobe was the best player in those seasons.  He is better than Pippen, but I think he was similar to him in many ways.

My top ten by tiers (mostly in order)

1 - Lebron, MJ, Kareem
2 - Magic, Wilt, Bill, Bird
3 - TD, Hakeem, Shaq

The next 2 tiers (so 11-16)
4 - Oscar, Curry, Moses
5 -  Dr. J, Kobe, Durant

And the 2 current guys are on their own, but may really be in tier 4 or 5
6 - Jokic, Giannis

I don't know where to put those guys, but Jokic, in particular could move all the way into tier 3 before he is done (and if he wins a couple more titles, tier 2 isnt out of the question).

I don't know how I'd currently rate those 2 guys when compared to Dirk, KG, Baylor, Barkley, Malone, etc. They've had higher peaks, but not quite there with the longevity yet, whichis why I'd tier them alone.

I think SGA is 1 year into a 3-4 year run that is going to put him in your tier 6 above, and I got in on the ground floor. Looking forward to your pick tomorrow. You've got an incredible foundation Mo. Shaq didn't do much during our timeframe, but that year he was an absolute unit.

I think SGA is already in that same tier as Jokic / Giannis.

An MVP and leading a team to a title puts him in rarified company. Few players in league history can match those accolades. 

Plus, he was 2nd in MVP the year before. And 5th the year before that. 1 MVP. 2 top two finishes. 3 top five finishes.

The 6 players ever to post a .300 WS/48 in an MVP season since 1960:

Kareem
MJ
Lebron
Curry
Jokic
SGA

The 4 players ever to win a scoring title, MVP, FMVP and championship in the same year, all time:

Kareem
MJ
Shaq
SGA

The only 3 players on both lists are Kareem, MJ, and SGA

The only player eligible from 2005-2025 is SGA.

But I think he has to put a few more years in to get to Curry or Giannis level. But this individual season alone is already close to their absolute peak seasons, so at #14 I think it?s a steal

Thanks for the kind words, Who, TP.

To the lurkers, feel free to write a little blurb on each team, we?d love it. I may not have time, but I will do so if I can get to it in the next 2 days.
CsBlog 05-25 Fantasy Draft Commish, OKC:

PG: SGA (24-25, MVP, 32 MPG)
SG: Kevin Durant (13-14, MVP, 39 MPG)
SF: ?
PF: ?
C: ?

Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #167 on: Today at 02:26:21 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Round 3 is where the fun begins, IMO. 

Gonna start seeing some drastic differences in player valuations and this will be the tricky area of roster building. 


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Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #168 on: Today at 02:38:08 PM »

Online Celtic Fan Forever

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Round 3 is where the fun begins, IMO. 

Gonna start seeing some drastic differences in player valuations and this will be the tricky area of roster building.

This is my favorite part of the draft. You get your top superstars and now you have to figure out how to work in other guys. There are some top end talents on the board that I can see dropping even further due to fit issues with other stars.
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Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #169 on: Today at 02:44:13 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Kobe is such an interesting case because so many people consider him top 5 all time (even top 3 or at least most top 10).  I personally do not agree with that for him but still crazy to see how far he fell in this draft even on a Celtics forum.  Will be interesting to see how he works in the SIM because I do think efficiency with him can be a bit of a concern.

Kobe is fascinating. I don't think he is top 5 or even top 10 either. Top 15? Probably. Top 20? Definitely.

I also think he derives a lot of his All-Time value from longevity rather than peak performance. He is almost hurt by this format. A single season format.

I thought Kobe's main All-Time ranking value came from being a top 5 player for a full decade. From 2001 or 2002 until 2011 or 2012. Something like that. He was a top 5 player year in year out. Sometimes top 3.

I don't think he ever had that period where he was the clear #1 player in the league for any sustained period of time. Not like Shaq who was unstoppable in the early 2000s. Or LeBron who completely dominated in the late 00s and throughout the 10s.
Kobe was never the best player in the league. Even the year he was MVP he wasn't the best player. 

I mean starting in 90 you basically had

MJ, Hakeem, MJ, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron (for over 10 years), Giannis, Jokic

Only a season or two of transitions in that entire 30+ year time period and I dont think Kobe was the best player in those seasons.  He is better than Pippen, but I think he was similar to him in many ways.

My top ten by tiers (mostly in order)

1 - Lebron, MJ, Kareem
2 - Magic, Wilt, Bill, Bird
3 - TD, Hakeem, Shaq

The next 2 tiers (so 11-16)
4 - Oscar, Curry, Moses
5 -  Dr. J, Kobe, Durant

And the 2 current guys are on their own, but may really be in tier 4 or 5
6 - Jokic, Giannis

I don't know where to put those guys, but Jokic, in particular could move all the way into tier 3 before he is done (and if he wins a couple more titles, tier 2 isnt out of the question).

I don't know how I'd currently rate those 2 guys when compared to Dirk, KG, Baylor, Barkley, Malone, etc. They've had higher peaks, but not quite there with the longevity yet, whichis why I'd tier them alone.

I think SGA is 1 year into a 3-4 year run that is going to put him in your tier 6 above, and I got in on the ground floor. Looking forward to your pick tomorrow. You've got an incredible foundation Mo. Shaq didn't do much during our timeframe, but that year he was an absolute unit.

I think SGA is already in that same tier as Jokic / Giannis.

An MVP and leading a team to a title puts him in rarified company. Few players in league history can match those accolades. 

Plus, he was 2nd in MVP the year before. And 5th the year before that. 1 MVP. 2 top two finishes. 3 top five finishes.
He isn't a top 20 player all time. Just hasn't played long enough. Could get there of course, but he has a ways to go and a lot can happen.  I mean has he had a better career than someone like Kawhi.  Kawhi doesnt have the MVP, but does have 2 DPOY and 2 Finals MVP.  Is SGA ahead of KG or Dirk or even Barkley or Malone.  I don't think so and frankly think it is hard to argue whereas you could with both Giannis and Jokic.  Longevity matters and SGA doesn't have the longevity, yet.  Talent is there and he is building the stats and awards. Just not there yet.
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Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #170 on: Today at 03:00:34 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Kobe is such an interesting case because so many people consider him top 5 all time (even top 3 or at least most top 10).  I personally do not agree with that for him but still crazy to see how far he fell in this draft even on a Celtics forum.  Will be interesting to see how he works in the SIM because I do think efficiency with him can be a bit of a concern.

Kobe is fascinating. I don't think he is top 5 or even top 10 either. Top 15? Probably. Top 20? Definitely.

I also think he derives a lot of his All-Time value from longevity rather than peak performance. He is almost hurt by this format. A single season format.

I thought Kobe's main All-Time ranking value came from being a top 5 player for a full decade. From 2001 or 2002 until 2011 or 2012. Something like that. He was a top 5 player year in year out. Sometimes top 3.

I don't think he ever had that period where he was the clear #1 player in the league for any sustained period of time. Not like Shaq who was unstoppable in the early 2000s. Or LeBron who completely dominated in the late 00s and throughout the 10s.
Kobe was never the best player in the league. Even the year he was MVP he wasn't the best player. 

I mean starting in 90 you basically had

MJ, Hakeem, MJ, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron (for over 10 years), Giannis, Jokic

Only a season or two of transitions in that entire 30+ year time period and I dont think Kobe was the best player in those seasons.  He is better than Pippen, but I think he was similar to him in many ways.

My top ten by tiers (mostly in order)

1 - Lebron, MJ, Kareem
2 - Magic, Wilt, Bill, Bird
3 - TD, Hakeem, Shaq

The next 2 tiers (so 11-16)
4 - Oscar, Curry, Moses
5 -  Dr. J, Kobe, Durant

And the 2 current guys are on their own, but may really be in tier 4 or 5
6 - Jokic, Giannis

I don't know where to put those guys, but Jokic, in particular could move all the way into tier 3 before he is done (and if he wins a couple more titles, tier 2 isnt out of the question).

I don't know how I'd currently rate those 2 guys when compared to Dirk, KG, Baylor, Barkley, Malone, etc. They've had higher peaks, but not quite there with the longevity yet, whichis why I'd tier them alone.

I think SGA is 1 year into a 3-4 year run that is going to put him in your tier 6 above, and I got in on the ground floor. Looking forward to your pick tomorrow. You've got an incredible foundation Mo. Shaq didn't do much during our timeframe, but that year he was an absolute unit.

I think SGA is already in that same tier as Jokic / Giannis.

An MVP and leading a team to a title puts him in rarified company. Few players in league history can match those accolades. 

Plus, he was 2nd in MVP the year before. And 5th the year before that. 1 MVP. 2 top two finishes. 3 top five finishes.
He isn't a top 20 player all time. Just hasn't played long enough. Could get there of course, but he has a ways to go and a lot can happen.  I mean has he had a better career than someone like Kawhi.  Kawhi doesnt have the MVP, but does have 2 DPOY and 2 Finals MVP.  Is SGA ahead of KG or Dirk or even Barkley or Malone.  I don't think so and frankly think it is hard to argue whereas you could with both Giannis and Jokic.  Longevity matters and SGA doesn't have the longevity, yet.  Talent is there and he is building the stats and awards. Just not there yet.
Comparing players who are in the prime of their career with many years to play with players who have already played their full career or most of it isn't fair.  The fair comparison is how does SGA compare to those players at a similar point in their career.  I'd say he compares well to most of them. 

As for this draft, careers shouldn't matter since it is a single season draft.  I'd say SGA's best season stacks up quite well especially since he isn't using the 3pt shot to "pad" his stats. 

Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #171 on: Today at 03:49:46 PM »

Online smokeablount

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Here is the link to the team thread. Adding it to the OP too

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=109542.0
CsBlog 05-25 Fantasy Draft Commish, OKC:

PG: SGA (24-25, MVP, 32 MPG)
SG: Kevin Durant (13-14, MVP, 39 MPG)
SF: ?
PF: ?
C: ?

Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #172 on: Today at 03:55:59 PM »

Online Roy H.

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As for this draft, careers shouldn't matter since it is a single season draft.  I'd say SGA's best season stacks up quite well especially since he isn't using the 3pt shot to "pad" his stats.

I agree about the single season aspect.

I'm curious what you mean by using threes to pad stats, though.  Scoring is scoring and efficiency is efficiency, isn't it?


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Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #173 on: Today at 05:04:56 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I find careers always matter, even in the single season drafts.  Now a guy like SGA just entering his prime may not be docked points so to speak, but a one hit wonder certainly has been historically in these drafts.  Think someone like Tiny Archibald, who had one of the greatest individual seasons ever, but he is never thought of that way in these sorts of drafts. 
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Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #174 on: Today at 05:44:44 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Regarding the Steph-SGA comp

I think SGA has a case for being a superior first option thanks to his shot creation ability, whereas Steph is clearly better suited for a secondary role thanks to his elite shooting and off-ball movement. Given our fantasy teams will be loaded with stars, Steph provides more value in our game.

SGA ranked 3rd in the league in USG% behind only Giannis and a certain other undrafted player. I consider him a heliocentric ball handler who excels when the whole team is built around him. Let's say he's a rich man's Harden or a poor man's Oscar Robertson. Steph is nowhere near as ball dominant. In fact, he was happy to play 2nd fiddle to KD even though the Warriors were clearly Steph's team up until KD's arrival. Not to mention, he only won 1 FMVP meaning he's happy to rely on his teammates even in the clutch.

Not sure who'd be the first option between SGA and KD. To a large extent, I envision them taking turns on offense. KD can certainly feed off SGA's gravity as a shot creator. Not sure whether it works the other way around since SGA is a reluctant 3pt shooter. The fit is perfect though thanks to KD's versatility.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:50:25 PM by Jvalin »

Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #175 on: Today at 05:50:27 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I find careers always matter, even in the single season drafts.  Now a guy like SGA just entering his prime may not be docked points so to speak, but a one hit wonder certainly has been historically in these drafts.  Think someone like Tiny Archibald, who had one of the greatest individual seasons ever, but he is never thought of that way in these sorts of drafts.
I agree people's assessments get biased by careers but if you are really doing a single season draft then careers shouldn't matter for the assessment.  The simulation won't be taking careers into account.   As for SGA, he's had 3 straight seasons of 30+ points per game so no one-hit wonder. 

Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #176 on: Today at 05:59:25 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Regarding the Steph-SGA comp

I think SGA has a case for being a superior first option thanks to his shot creation ability, whereas Steph is clearly better suited for a secondary role thanks to his elite shooting and off-ball movement. Given our fantasy teams will be loaded with stars, Steph provides more value in our game.

SGA ranked 3rd in the league in USG% behind only Giannis and a certain other undrafted player. I consider him a heliocentric ball handler who excels when the whole team is built around him. Let's say he's a rich man's Harden or a poor man's Oscar Robertson. Steph is nowhere near as ball dominant. In fact, he was happy to play 2nd fiddle to KD even though the Warriors were clearly Steph's team up until KD's arrival. Not to mention, he only won 1 FMVP meaning he's happy to rely on his teammates even in the clutch.

Not sure who'd be the first option between SGA and KD. To a large extent, I envision them taking turns on offense. KD can certainly feed off SGA's gravity as a shot creator. Not sure whether it works the other way around since SGA is a reluctant 3pt shooter. The fit is perfect though thanks to KD's versatility.
35.5% on 3.7 attempts for his career is a reluctant 3pt shooter?  37.5% on 5.7 attempts last season.  This era has really distorted the game.  It would be great if there were more reluctant 3pt shooters like SGA. 

Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #177 on: Today at 06:11:10 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Regarding the Steph-SGA comp

I think SGA has a case for being a superior first option thanks to his shot creation ability, whereas Steph is clearly better suited for a secondary role thanks to his elite shooting and off-ball movement. Given our fantasy teams will be loaded with stars, Steph provides more value in our game.

SGA ranked 3rd in the league in USG% behind only Giannis and a certain other undrafted player. I consider him a heliocentric ball handler who excels when the whole team is built around him. Let's say he's a rich man's Harden or a poor man's Oscar Robertson. Steph is nowhere near as ball dominant. In fact, he was happy to play 2nd fiddle to KD even though the Warriors were clearly Steph's team up until KD's arrival. Not to mention, he only won 1 FMVP meaning he's happy to rely on his teammates even in the clutch.

Not sure who'd be the first option between SGA and KD. To a large extent, I envision them taking turns on offense. KD can certainly feed off SGA's gravity as a shot creator. Not sure whether it works the other way around since SGA is a reluctant 3pt shooter. The fit is perfect though thanks to KD's versatility.
35.5% on 3.7 attempts for his career is a reluctant 3pt shooter?  37.5% on 5.7 attempts last season.  This era has really distorted the game.  It would be great if there were more reluctant 3pt shooters like SGA.
Was averaging 21.8 FGAs per game though. His 3PAr last season was 26.3%. His career average is 22%. Both numbers are well below league average for primary ball handlers. SGA excels at the mid-range shot, not the 3-pointer.

It's late at night where I am. See you all tomorrow for round 3!

Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #178 on: Today at 06:22:35 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I find careers always matter, even in the single season drafts.  Now a guy like SGA just entering his prime may not be docked points so to speak, but a one hit wonder certainly has been historically in these drafts.  Think someone like Tiny Archibald, who had one of the greatest individual seasons ever, but he is never thought of that way in these sorts of drafts.
I agree people's assessments get biased by careers but if you are really doing a single season draft then careers shouldn't matter for the assessment.  The simulation won't be taking careers into account.   As for SGA, he's had 3 straight seasons of 30+ points per game so no one-hit wonder.
I disagree. I think it matters and here's why.  If a player has 1 amazing season and a bunch of ok seasons over a long career, then I think that one amazing season is likely not all that repeatable. Meaning it was the specific conditions of that season that led to an abnormal (to the positive) season.  Those conditions are never going to be replicated here if they couldn't even be replicated by his own team at the time.

To be clear that shouldn't be an issue for someone like SGA, but it absolutely can matter for certain players in this. Careers matter even in a one season look.
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Re: 2025 CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft: '05-'25 Edition
« Reply #179 on: Today at 06:23:25 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The way Im currently leaning will cause some debate I think. 
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