Author Topic: What player puts the Cs over the top  (Read 13206 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: What player puts the Cs over the top
« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2022, 09:40:05 AM »

Offline Hoopvortex

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1243
  • Tommy Points: 164
What tough interior PFs even exist in the league at this point?  I feel like that's largely a dead player archetype outside of perhaps a half-dozen players.  Not sure why you would consider that to be one of your major team needs. 

I would argue that with Horford and Grant (or Robert and Grant, depending on your view of our starters' positional roles - I don't care to argue the semantics), our physicality at the 4 is better than the vast majority of NBA teams as it currently stands.
Well there's Giannis. Then there's .....ummmm....there's.......ummmm.....well.....well there's Giannis!

Maybe all the crappy ones the Knicks have. Taj Gibson and Bobby Portis and Obi Toppin. And Julius Randle, the only good one.
Bobby Portis a) plays for Milwaukee and b) shoots over 40% from 3. He's been awesome for Milwaukee this season in Lopez's absence

You're right he even won a championship

The Knicks had a good defense with all those forwards, but has fallen apart now for some reason and they just stink now
I love it ;D

Julius Randle declining suddenly has hurt them a lot. Fournier and Kemba have also not lived up to expectations

Were you expecting more from Kemba (and his knee)? For a player who relied on speed and mobility, a chronic situation like his is a career-killer.

Boston tossed his contract away like a hot potato - if I may say so, it was a real coup to bring in Al Horford instead, who's been a critical addition.

In a side note, it's evident that the Celtics brass don't think that low-first draft picks are what they want to build the team right now.
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: What player puts the Cs over the top
« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2022, 10:48:40 AM »

Offline Hoopvortex

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1243
  • Tommy Points: 164
For me, this team needs three players to start winning titles - a playmaking point guard, a tough power forward who has an inside scoring game and a knock-down shooter. We need more than one addition. Those three coming off the bench to replace the current group that gets minimum minutes are what we need.

As far as the "playmaking point guard" goes, it looks as though Brad Stevens has gone decisively in another direction. This team is now built around a decentralized team ball-movement concept, rather than relying on a single player with ball skills to generate offense for the team.

We are too dependent on the first 8 and Ime is playing the starters into the ground.

I would at least agree that Tatum is getting too many minutes.

We'd see Nesmith more, but he's been hurt; I would suggest that one reason Romeo was traded was to open a pathway for Aaron. He's got developing off-the-dribble skills; I guess I'd say that what the team needs is a third wing who can shoot with range, get into the paint off the dribble and finish (again, Aaron has shown real promise with lane scoring, going both ways with his dribble and finishing hand), and making a play (the area that Aaron is most behind in).


Pritchard could develop into the shooter, but he is not at the level of prime Kyle Korver or JJ Reddick.

His size is an issue going forward; but he's way ahead of Redick and Korver in his play-making skills and ahead of both in his ability to get a shot off the dribble.

Horford is our current power forward, but is aging and does not bring the physicality we need to add inside.

I'd agree with one of these three assertions: he's aging. Fortunately, his game does not rely on speed, and Coach Udoka has made a priority of managing his minutes. Fingers crossed, he's avoided injury, always a heightened risk at his age.

To the extent that it's relevant to even say the team has a "power forward", it is not Al. If we're going to use the old-fashioned designations, Horford mostly plays center.

As for lacking physicality - that's not what I see. Leave it at that.

A playmaking point guard is a desperate need and could be a starter.

I think that there's more than one way to build a contender; but as I was saying earlier: in any case, Boston has gone away from that model. They replaced Schroeder with Derrick White, as clear a signal as you could get. They want Tatum and Brown creating for teammates as well as for themselves; as the season has progressed, their assist%s have slowly climbed.

Personally, I love the direction the offense is going; just love to see the ball move the way it has been. But no doubt if Boston had gotten Chris Paul at some point things could be just as awesome. As I say, there's more than one way to get there.

Marcus Smart has 6th Man of the Year written all over him - if he was willing to accept the role.

Okay interesting. Certainly when Brad was head coach Smart played a 6th-man role (though with 5th-man minutes).

The classic 6th man is a scorer who comes in when the opponent's starters go out or start to flag (Lou Williams, in recent seasons, fits the norm) - but whose defense doesn't measure up to his offense (otherwise he'd be a starter).

But of course the Celtics have been innovators in this area as in many from the early years of the league; Loscutoff and Paul Silas are good counterexamples.

Again, though, it looks like both coaching and management are projecting Smart as a starter going forward, with him in a low-usage facilitating role; and their vision of the offense is the decentralized ball-movement team we're seeing right now.

It's particularly striking that, far from looking for a better Dennis Schroeder, they got a Derrick White, whose role is not all that different from brother Marcus'.

They doubled down.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2022, 10:58:27 AM by Hoopvortex »
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: What player puts the Cs over the top
« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2022, 06:29:20 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3142
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
What tough interior PFs even exist in the league at this point?  I feel like that's largely a dead player archetype outside of perhaps a half-dozen players.  Not sure why you would consider that to be one of your major team needs. 

I would argue that with Horford and Grant (or Robert and Grant, depending on your view of our starters' positional roles - I don't care to argue the semantics), our physicality at the 4 is better than the vast majority of NBA teams as it currently stands.
Well there's Giannis. Then there's .....ummmm....there's.......ummmm.....well.....well there's Giannis!

Maybe all the crappy ones the Knicks have. Taj Gibson and Bobby Portis and Obi Toppin. And Julius Randle, the only good one.
Bobby Portis a) plays for Milwaukee and b) shoots over 40% from 3. He's been awesome for Milwaukee this season in Lopez's absence

You're right he even won a championship

The Knicks had a good defense with all those forwards, but has fallen apart now for some reason and they just stink now
I love it ;D

Julius Randle declining suddenly has hurt them a lot. Fournier and Kemba have also not lived up to expectations

Were you expecting more from Kemba (and his knee)? For a player who relied on speed and mobility, a chronic situation like his is a career-killer.

Boston tossed his contract away like a hot potato - if I may say so, it was a real coup to bring in Al Horford instead, who's been a critical addition.

In a side note, it's evident that the Celtics brass don't think that low-first draft picks are what they want to build the team right now.
He was a significantly more impactful player per-possession in his last season with us than he has been in New York. I expected/hoped he'd be able to still be a contributor on offence, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

Getting Al was a steal. Trick is to now get someone like Sengun to be a long-term replacement :P
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: What player puts the Cs over the top
« Reply #93 on: March 22, 2022, 06:34:01 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 37796
  • Tommy Points: 3030
Batman

Re: What player puts the Cs over the top
« Reply #94 on: March 22, 2022, 06:54:25 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48121
  • Tommy Points: 8800
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
Gosh Gouk and Nicky, I apologize.
I forgot that it is now unacceptable to discuss any possible weaknesses the Celtics have that may prevent title contention.

Nick, most of your posts these days are lashing out at anyone who is not all-positive, all-on-board the Celtics bandwagon.

My suggestions were offered as a way to help the team I want to win the title. I was responding to the OP's question. I guess the Mods should have locked this thread immediately because it suggests the Celtics might need some improvement in order to be serious contenders. But I will watch my language from now on and follow current board rules: Positive Thoughts Only !!!!
Geesh, I wasn't aware that my post was "lashing out" or attacking you in any way. Let's look at what I said:

Really good question. Red was always the best in the game at acquiring just the players a team needed to get over the title hump. Havlicek kept the 60's dynasty going, Paul Silas made the 70's group into a title team, Parrish and McHale were brought in to get us past the 76ers who had too much size for us in the 1980's ECF. Then we traded for Dennis Johnson '84 when we needed a little new blood and a big, defensive stopper in the backcourt - plus he had the perfect mentality to be a Celtic.

For me, this team needs three players to start winning titles - a playmaking point guard, a tough power forward who has an inside scoring game and a knock-down shooter. We need more than one addition. Those three coming off the bench to replace the current group that gets minimum minutes are what we need. We are too dependent on the first 8 and Ime is playing the starters into the ground.

Pritchard could develop into the shooter, but he is not at the level of prime Kyle Korver or JJ Reddick.
Horford is our current power forward, but is aging and does not bring the physicality we need to add inside.
A playmaking point guard is a desperate need and could be a starter.
Marcus Smart has 6th Man of the Year written all over him - if he was willing to accept the role.
The idea that people think this team is 3 players away from being able to win titles is hard to imagine given the absolute dominance this team has show for the last 30% of the season.

The Celtics as currently constructed can win it all. They are the best team in the league RIGHT NOW!
I said the idea the team is 3 players away is hard to imagine. Why? Because they are 22-4 in the last 26 games and dominating everyone. Teams 3 players away from title contention don't go 22-4 and have the best defense in the league with a net rating in the mid teens.

I also said they were the best team in the league because they have been for 3 months. This isn't some 5 game winning streak. This is pure dominance over three months.

The 2007-08 Celtics started 23-3 on the way to a 29-3 start because of a dominating defense  This team just went 22-4 because of a dominating defense.

I didn't lash out or say anything negative towards you. I just find your opinion hard to imagine given facts in hand. This team can easily win it all with no additions.

I will say this about your opinion of needs. Pass first PGs don't really exist too much anymore. Same for bruising inside PFs. They are passè.

You appear to be trying to remake this team into some ideal team you envision from the 1990's and before. This team doesn't need those type players and Smart has proven to be a capable starting PG that can do a lot of everything, which is the philosophy this entire team is built around.

As for shooters. The Celtics have the 5th and 25th best three point shooters in the league in Grant and Pritchard with Tatum now fully out of his slump shooting 39.3% for three since the start of February. Smart (37.5%)and Horford(36.5%) have also been shooting the three at a high percentage over the streak. Every team could use more shooting but the C's have plenty even with a normal excellent three point shooter in JB slumping at the moment.

Sorry, just completely disagree with your assessment. No way this team needs 3 players to win it all. They can do it built just they way they are this year.

Re: What player puts the Cs over the top
« Reply #95 on: March 22, 2022, 07:23:42 PM »

Offline td450

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2330
  • Tommy Points: 254
Gosh Gouk and Nicky, I apologize.
I forgot that it is now unacceptable to discuss any possible weaknesses the Celtics have that may prevent title contention.

Nick, most of your posts these days are lashing out at anyone who is not all-positive, all-on-board the Celtics bandwagon.

My suggestions were offered as a way to help the team I want to win the title. I was responding to the OP's question. I guess the Mods should have locked this thread immediately because it suggests the Celtics might need some improvement in order to be serious contenders. But I will watch my language from now on and follow current board rules: Positive Thoughts Only !!!!
Geesh, I wasn't aware that my post was "lashing out" or attacking you in any way. Let's look at what I said:

Really good question. Red was always the best in the game at acquiring just the players a team needed to get over the title hump. Havlicek kept the 60's dynasty going, Paul Silas made the 70's group into a title team, Parrish and McHale were brought in to get us past the 76ers who had too much size for us in the 1980's ECF. Then we traded for Dennis Johnson '84 when we needed a little new blood and a big, defensive stopper in the backcourt - plus he had the perfect mentality to be a Celtic.

For me, this team needs three players to start winning titles - a playmaking point guard, a tough power forward who has an inside scoring game and a knock-down shooter. We need more than one addition. Those three coming off the bench to replace the current group that gets minimum minutes are what we need. We are too dependent on the first 8 and Ime is playing the starters into the ground.

Pritchard could develop into the shooter, but he is not at the level of prime Kyle Korver or JJ Reddick.
Horford is our current power forward, but is aging and does not bring the physicality we need to add inside.
A playmaking point guard is a desperate need and could be a starter.
Marcus Smart has 6th Man of the Year written all over him - if he was willing to accept the role.
The idea that people think this team is 3 players away from being able to win titles is hard to imagine given the absolute dominance this team has show for the last 30% of the season.

The Celtics as currently constructed can win it all. They are the best team in the league RIGHT NOW!
I said the idea the team is 3 players away is hard to imagine. Why? Because they are 22-4 in the last 26 games and dominating everyone. Teams 3 players away from title contention don't go 22-4 and have the best defense in the league with a net rating in the mid teens.

I also said they were the best team in the league because they have been for 3 months. This isn't some 5 game winning streak. This is pure dominance over three months.

The 2007-08 Celtics started 23-3 on the way to a 29-3 start because of a dominating defense  This team just went 22-4 because of a dominating defense.

I didn't lash out or say anything negative towards you. I just find your opinion hard to imagine given facts in hand. This team can easily win it all with no additions.

I will say this about your opinion of needs. Pass first PGs don't really exist too much anymore. Same for bruising inside PFs. They are passè.

You appear to be trying to remake this team into some ideal team you envision from the 1990's and before. This team doesn't need those type players and Smart has proven to be a capable starting PG that can do a lot of everything, which is the philosophy this entire team is built around.

As for shooters. The Celtics have the 5th and 25th best three point shooters in the league in Grant and Pritchard with Tatum now fully out of his slump shooting 39.3% for three since the start of February. Smart (37.5%)and Horford(36.5%) have also been shooting the three at a high percentage over the streak. Every team could use more shooting but the C's have plenty even with a normal excellent three point shooter in JB slumping at the moment.

Sorry, just completely disagree with your assessment. No way this team needs 3 players to win it all. They can do it built just they way they are this year.

Totally agree that this team can do it - if they stay healthy, they are the favorites.

A lot depends on Marcus. I thought the team could be great if they were able to strategically do the things they have done (shed all the players that couldn't play aggressive switching defense and promote pace and ball movement) but one thing I didn't think would happen was Smart completely getting his act together.

There is another level or two for this team. Jaylen is just coming around now. He could easily be next level in 10 games. Derrick White will probably revert to the mean, at least. He's playing with better players. Theis still needs a few more games to catch up. Nesmith doesn't even exist, and it is completely plausible for him to become a exactly the kind of legit rotation wing they need.

We are winning in a sustainable way, and we've been doing it all of 2022.

Re: What player puts the Cs over the top
« Reply #96 on: March 22, 2022, 08:06:31 PM »

Offline #1P4P

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 993
  • Tommy Points: 143
This team needs the players on the roster to continue building. Jayson, Jaylen, Rob, Grant, Payton, Nesmith, Smart, and White are still on the ascent of their career.

People have to allow young players to continue to grow without an ongoing worry that there’s something missing/wrong.

If Tatum is ready to be a top 5 mainstay, the pieces are already here and the Celtics are Champions.

Re: What player puts the Cs over the top
« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2022, 09:13:56 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7165
  • Tommy Points: 845
Gosh Gouk and Nicky, I apologize.
I forgot that it is now unacceptable to discuss any possible weaknesses the Celtics have that may prevent title contention.

Nick, most of your posts these days are lashing out at anyone who is not all-positive, all-on-board the Celtics bandwagon.

My suggestions were offered as a way to help the team I want to win the title. I was responding to the OP's question. I guess the Mods should have locked this thread immediately because it suggests the Celtics might need some improvement in order to be serious contenders. But I will watch my language from now on and follow current board rules: Positive Thoughts Only !!!!
Don't be so precious. Your post came off as if you haven't been watching the last 25 games. There is no better team in the whole league right now, yet we are 3 players away from being title contenders? It's simply unreasonable

I'm just not there yet. This team has to prove themselves in the playoffs, where much more prep goes into each game, where defensive strategy can be adjusted game to game. And depth is an issue for this team. We do not have enough offensive firepower off the bench to win a title. Other than maybe Pritchard (big maybe) we don't have a killer catch-and-shoot guy on the team. Our shooting can go south against the better defense we will see in the playoffs.

Having said that, I hope I am wrong.
The Four Celtic Generals:
Russell - Cowens - Bird - Garnett

The Four Celtic Lieutenants:
Cousy - Havlicek - McHale - Pierce

Re: What player puts the Cs over the top
« Reply #98 on: March 23, 2022, 09:23:45 PM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3733
  • Tommy Points: 280
Apparently Derrick White

Re: What player puts the Cs over the top
« Reply #99 on: March 23, 2022, 09:30:28 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3142
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
Gosh Gouk and Nicky, I apologize.
I forgot that it is now unacceptable to discuss any possible weaknesses the Celtics have that may prevent title contention.

Nick, most of your posts these days are lashing out at anyone who is not all-positive, all-on-board the Celtics bandwagon.

My suggestions were offered as a way to help the team I want to win the title. I was responding to the OP's question. I guess the Mods should have locked this thread immediately because it suggests the Celtics might need some improvement in order to be serious contenders. But I will watch my language from now on and follow current board rules: Positive Thoughts Only !!!!
Don't be so precious. Your post came off as if you haven't been watching the last 25 games. There is no better team in the whole league right now, yet we are 3 players away from being title contenders? It's simply unreasonable

I'm just not there yet. This team has to prove themselves in the playoffs, where much more prep goes into each game, where defensive strategy can be adjusted game to game. And depth is an issue for this team. We do not have enough offensive firepower off the bench to win a title. Other than maybe Pritchard (big maybe) we don't have a killer catch-and-shoot guy on the team. Our shooting can go south against the better defense we will see in the playoffs.

Having said that, I hope I am wrong.
Since the calendar year flipped over, we are 28-8 (~64 win pace). Smart has averaged 13/6 on 38.6% shooting from three, with All-D 1st team level defence. Al has averaged 9/7/3 with 34% shooting from three and elite defence. Rob has averaged 10/10 with elite, borderline DPOY level defence and 72% shooting from the field. Pritchard & Grant are both shooting mid-40s from three recently, which I think is sustainable. White gets shots for others, plays good defence and can score inside the arc. Theis is a very strong 3rd string big man.

I think that's a really good supporting cast for Tatum (current top 10 form) and Brown (top 25-30 form).
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: What player puts the Cs over the top
« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2022, 09:45:13 PM »

Offline liam

  • NCE
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 45920
  • Tommy Points: 3340
Pritchard!