Author Topic: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder  (Read 16812 times)

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Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #90 on: April 06, 2021, 08:26:39 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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Sorry for piling on Ainge, but hes not getting much right lately.  Nesmith,  Grant Williams,  Bane, Carsen Edward's.

Lol. I love conveniently omitting Tatum, Brown, Pritchard, Langford, and Rob Williams in this list. Also, he drafted Rozier only 6 years ago, which at the very least ought to prove he gets it right at a decent clip.

As for the Kemba vs. Rozier debate: Sure, Rozier is younger and costs less. There's a legitimate argument to be made that he would have been a fine PG for the team this year. But I just don't see him moving the needle much at all. He's immature, and he's a ballhog who struggles being the fourth or fifth option on the court. He'd consequently take touches away from Brown and Tatum when their development is the most important aspect of the next two seasons.

This version of Rozier is probably the best he'll ever be. This version of Kemba is probably the worst he'll be during his Celtics tenure. I'm good rolling with Kemba.

I agree with you about Ainge getting more than his share of excellent draft moves, though I'm a bit confused about how Langford made your list (seeing as he seems to be a useless scrub right now).  But I digress... 

Not sure I agree with your assessment on Rozier though.  Not sure I'd call him a ball hog - at least not any more then Kemba is. Both are shoot first PG's and I think they both have "ball hoggy" moments, but both are far from the worst i've seen in that regard.  Hell the way Brown, Tatum and Smart have been playing the past couple of months they make Rozier look like John Stockton lol

I also don't agree entirely with the immature argument.  For 3 years Rozier put up with limited roles while mostly riding the bench, and he never complained about it.  Not once.  The only time he started to get visibly (and vocally) frustrated was after he broke out during that big playoff run only to get held back again in his final year with the Celtics - it seemed everything he did out there ultimately meant nothing, and his lack of a major role really held him back from being able to develop and show what he could do - all in a contract year.  Then on top of that the team was struggling and there were visible tensions in the locker room as it was.  So he got frustrated, said a few things he shouldn't have said.  It wasn't especially wise and he copped more then his fair share of slack for it - but I totally understand his position and why he responded the way he did.   

One thing people have to remember about Rozier is that much like Marcus Smart, he's the kind of guy who plays with a chip on his shoulder and wears his emotions on his sleeve.  He's an extremely passionate guy.  That has it's pros and its cons. 

The con is that sometimes his play can get a little reckless / out of control because he's so fuelled by his passion for winning that he can struggle to keep a clear and level head.  He takes gambles sometimes on defence, takes the occasional questionable shot, etc.  These are all things that Marcus Smart is (and always has been) guilty of as well, but somehow he gets a free pass for it while Rozier gets absolutely grilled over it.   

The pro is that Rozier plays hard EVERY SINGLE NIGHT, and he does it on both ends of the court.  He may not be as versatile defensively as Smart or as talented offensively as Kyrie, but you can never fault him for not giving it everything he has.  How many times have we seen Rozier dive for loose balls, jump over 2 or 3 bigs for a rebound, force a turnover with intense full court defensive pressure, hit huge clutch shots that change the outcome of games?  And so often hes doing these things in huge games in the playoffs or against major rivals.  He has that killer instinct that is rare in players, and that's something that Danny should not have ignored. 

And contrary to what you say, I don't think Rozier would have impacted Tatum and Brown's development at all.  In fact, I felt he played incredibly well when he was sharing the court with Tatum, Brown and Smart.  Those guys seemed to love playing off each other and seemed to really have fun playing together, and I think they all complimented each other very well.  Rozier always seemed like the guy who just wanted to win, and as long as he had the key role he deserved / earned (either starter or big minute 6th man) I think he would have been perfectly happy going out there and doing whatever the hell Brad and Danny wanted him to do - because that's just the type of personality he seemed to always have.

Now on to the Rozier vs Kemba argument - this is a tough one.  Looking at the player Rozier is right now yes, I would take him over Kemba if given the chance.  Rozier gives up experience and a bit of offensive talent to Kemba, but he's bigger, younger, healthier, and a significantly better defensive player.  His ability to defend and rebound at a high level (for a PG) means that he can have a positive impact on the game even when the ball isn't in his hands, and that's not really true of Kemba.  I also think that this Celtics team is a little short on "attitude" and that having Rozier out there with his passion and fire would help excite the crowd and get the other guys on the team fired up and dialled in.  I think it's hard for any team to play lazy when you have Smart and Rozier on the court together.

But in Ainge's defence...

1. There were no guarantee Rozier would become this player - there was signs that it could happen, but it was in no way a sure thing.  Kemba on the other hand was a multi-time All-Star and a seemingly proven commodity.  He decided to go with the low risk play by signing Kemba and keeping  Smart rather than take a high risk/ high reward gamble on Rozier.  I would have taken the risk, but I can completely understand why he chose not to. 

2. Boston was in a different position as a team at the time.  Brown was showing potential but was still relatively green, Tatum looked like could be a star but wasn't yet there.  The Celtics looked like a team that needed that consistent, proven, veteran scorer that could be depended on to fill some of the void left by Kyrie.  Even if Rozier could step in to a starting role and score 18-20 PPG (as hes doing now) that might not have been enough to move the needle given where the rest of the team was at that time.  The situation now is very different.  Now Tatum and Brown have emerged as bonafide All-Stars and having a guy like Kemba (who's a big time scorer but compromises in other areas) isn't so fitting.  But this is all information we now have in hindsight that Danny was incapable of predicting at that time.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 08:45:25 PM by Muzzy66 »

Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #91 on: April 13, 2021, 09:28:29 AM »

Offline Big333223

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Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era.

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.
Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.
Great point. TP.
The Celtics have actually had a pretty incredible run on pg's. This was just the third time since '09-10 they didn't have a PG in the all star game (Rondo '10-13, IT '16-17, Kyrie '18-19, Kemba '20).

More of an indicator of how weak the East has been at that position. Curry, Lillard, Paul, Westbrook, Conley all in the west.
I don't think there's any year there where Conley makes an all star team over a Celtic.

Mike Conley has been the most underrated player in the NBA for the last decade.
Not really. Conley is and has been a fine player, but he’s not elite at any one thing and I don’t think has ever been the best player on his team. Tough to make an All-Star case given that, and he shouldn’t have been one this year
Yeah, I mean, Conley is terrific but name me the season he should've made the all star team and didn't?
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Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #92 on: April 13, 2021, 10:12:53 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era.

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.
Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.
Great point. TP.
The Celtics have actually had a pretty incredible run on pg's. This was just the third time since '09-10 they didn't have a PG in the all star game (Rondo '10-13, IT '16-17, Kyrie '18-19, Kemba '20).

More of an indicator of how weak the East has been at that position. Curry, Lillard, Paul, Westbrook, Conley all in the west.
I don't think there's any year there where Conley makes an all star team over a Celtic.

Mike Conley has been the most underrated player in the NBA for the last decade.
Not really. Conley is and has been a fine player, but he’s not elite at any one thing and I don’t think has ever been the best player on his team. Tough to make an All-Star case given that, and he shouldn’t have been one this year
I think he's been fantastic this year - to me he's the second best player on the Jazz behind Rudy Gobert.
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Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #93 on: April 13, 2021, 10:24:38 AM »

Online jambr380

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Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era.

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.
Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.
Great point. TP.
The Celtics have actually had a pretty incredible run on pg's. This was just the third time since '09-10 they didn't have a PG in the all star game (Rondo '10-13, IT '16-17, Kyrie '18-19, Kemba '20).

More of an indicator of how weak the East has been at that position. Curry, Lillard, Paul, Westbrook, Conley all in the west.
I don't think there's any year there where Conley makes an all star team over a Celtic.

Mike Conley has been the most underrated player in the NBA for the last decade.
Not really. Conley is and has been a fine player, but he’s not elite at any one thing and I don’t think has ever been the best player on his team. Tough to make an All-Star case given that, and he shouldn’t have been one this year
I think he's been fantastic this year - to me he's the second best player on the Jazz behind Rudy Gobert.

Are you kidding me? That's just laughably untrue. That's like saying Marcus Smart has been the 2nd best player this year on the Cs next to Jaylen Brown. And then totally leaving off Tatum.

Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #94 on: April 13, 2021, 10:37:16 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era.

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.
Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.
Great point. TP.
The Celtics have actually had a pretty incredible run on pg's. This was just the third time since '09-10 they didn't have a PG in the all star game (Rondo '10-13, IT '16-17, Kyrie '18-19, Kemba '20).

More of an indicator of how weak the East has been at that position. Curry, Lillard, Paul, Westbrook, Conley all in the west.
I don't think there's any year there where Conley makes an all star team over a Celtic.

Mike Conley has been the most underrated player in the NBA for the last decade.
Not really. Conley is and has been a fine player, but he’s not elite at any one thing and I don’t think has ever been the best player on his team. Tough to make an All-Star case given that, and he shouldn’t have been one this year
I think he's been fantastic this year - to me he's the second best player on the Jazz behind Rudy Gobert.
I'll just leave it at saying I disagree
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PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #95 on: April 13, 2021, 11:55:25 AM »

Online Moranis

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Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era.

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.
Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.
Great point. TP.
The Celtics have actually had a pretty incredible run on pg's. This was just the third time since '09-10 they didn't have a PG in the all star game (Rondo '10-13, IT '16-17, Kyrie '18-19, Kemba '20).

More of an indicator of how weak the East has been at that position. Curry, Lillard, Paul, Westbrook, Conley all in the west.
I don't think there's any year there where Conley makes an all star team over a Celtic.

Mike Conley has been the most underrated player in the NBA for the last decade.
Not really. Conley is and has been a fine player, but he’s not elite at any one thing and I don’t think has ever been the best player on his team. Tough to make an All-Star case given that, and he shouldn’t have been one this year
I think he's been fantastic this year - to me he's the second best player on the Jazz behind Rudy Gobert.
I'll just leave it at saying I disagree
I concur.  The Jazz are even 9-2 in the 11 games Conley has missed.  He is a nice solid player, but he doesn't move the needle for them at all. 

The Jazz though in general have been basically a picture of health, which is one of the reasons their record is as good as it is, but I think they are more likely to lose in the 1st round than make the Finals, maybe even than make the Western Conference Finals (obviously match-ups will matter there). 
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Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #96 on: April 13, 2021, 06:48:24 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era.

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.
Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.
Great point. TP.
The Celtics have actually had a pretty incredible run on pg's. This was just the third time since '09-10 they didn't have a PG in the all star game (Rondo '10-13, IT '16-17, Kyrie '18-19, Kemba '20).

More of an indicator of how weak the East has been at that position. Curry, Lillard, Paul, Westbrook, Conley all in the west.
I don't think there's any year there where Conley makes an all star team over a Celtic.

Mike Conley has been the most underrated player in the NBA for the last decade.
Not really. Conley is and has been a fine player, but he’s not elite at any one thing and I don’t think has ever been the best player on his team. Tough to make an All-Star case given that, and he shouldn’t have been one this year
I think he's been fantastic this year - to me he's the second best player on the Jazz behind Rudy Gobert.

There are Utah fans out there who concur with you. On RealGM I saw numerous posts of fans with a quip that they thought Mitchell should give his All Star spot to Conley. Luckily Conley still got his All Star nod anyway.

Mike Conley is much like Chris Paul. Just knows exactly what to do and what not to do. Both are excellent defenders and floor generals, who keep defenses honest but are willing to take a step back to let other more pure scorers get the spotlight.

Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #97 on: April 13, 2021, 07:49:58 PM »

Online Moranis

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Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era.

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.
Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.
Great point. TP.
The Celtics have actually had a pretty incredible run on pg's. This was just the third time since '09-10 they didn't have a PG in the all star game (Rondo '10-13, IT '16-17, Kyrie '18-19, Kemba '20).

More of an indicator of how weak the East has been at that position. Curry, Lillard, Paul, Westbrook, Conley all in the west.
I don't think there's any year there where Conley makes an all star team over a Celtic.

Mike Conley has been the most underrated player in the NBA for the last decade.
Not really. Conley is and has been a fine player, but he’s not elite at any one thing and I don’t think has ever been the best player on his team. Tough to make an All-Star case given that, and he shouldn’t have been one this year
I think he's been fantastic this year - to me he's the second best player on the Jazz behind Rudy Gobert.

There are Utah fans out there who concur with you. On RealGM I saw numerous posts of fans with a quip that they thought Mitchell should give his All Star spot to Conley. Luckily Conley still got his All Star nod anyway.

Mike Conley is much like Chris Paul. Just knows exactly what to do and what not to do. Both are excellent defenders and floor generals, who keep defenses honest but are willing to take a step back to let other more pure scorers get the spotlight.
except Chris Paul is a significantly better basketball player. 
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Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #98 on: April 13, 2021, 08:40:48 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era.

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.
Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.
Great point. TP.
The Celtics have actually had a pretty incredible run on pg's. This was just the third time since '09-10 they didn't have a PG in the all star game (Rondo '10-13, IT '16-17, Kyrie '18-19, Kemba '20).

More of an indicator of how weak the East has been at that position. Curry, Lillard, Paul, Westbrook, Conley all in the west.
I don't think there's any year there where Conley makes an all star team over a Celtic.

Mike Conley has been the most underrated player in the NBA for the last decade.
Not really. Conley is and has been a fine player, but he’s not elite at any one thing and I don’t think has ever been the best player on his team. Tough to make an All-Star case given that, and he shouldn’t have been one this year
I think he's been fantastic this year - to me he's the second best player on the Jazz behind Rudy Gobert.

There are Utah fans out there who concur with you. On RealGM I saw numerous posts of fans with a quip that they thought Mitchell should give his All Star spot to Conley. Luckily Conley still got his All Star nod anyway.

Mike Conley is much like Chris Paul. Just knows exactly what to do and what not to do. Both are excellent defenders and floor generals, who keep defenses honest but are willing to take a step back to let other more pure scorers get the spotlight.
except Chris Paul is a significantly better basketball player.
Yeah, Conley is solid, and his shooting this year has been really helpful to unlocking that Utah offence (same with the crazy surprise shooting from Clarkson), but he's a worse passer, rebounder and defender than Paul. His marginal edge in scoring doesn't really make them comparable. Paul v Booker is a much closer debate than Conley v Mitchell
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PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #99 on: April 14, 2021, 01:54:19 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era.

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.
Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.
Great point. TP.
The Celtics have actually had a pretty incredible run on pg's. This was just the third time since '09-10 they didn't have a PG in the all star game (Rondo '10-13, IT '16-17, Kyrie '18-19, Kemba '20).

More of an indicator of how weak the East has been at that position. Curry, Lillard, Paul, Westbrook, Conley all in the west.
I don't think there's any year there where Conley makes an all star team over a Celtic.

Mike Conley has been the most underrated player in the NBA for the last decade.
Not really. Conley is and has been a fine player, but he’s not elite at any one thing and I don’t think has ever been the best player on his team. Tough to make an All-Star case given that, and he shouldn’t have been one this year
I think he's been fantastic this year - to me he's the second best player on the Jazz behind Rudy Gobert.

There are Utah fans out there who concur with you. On RealGM I saw numerous posts of fans with a quip that they thought Mitchell should give his All Star spot to Conley. Luckily Conley still got his All Star nod anyway.

Mike Conley is much like Chris Paul. Just knows exactly what to do and what not to do. Both are excellent defenders and floor generals, who keep defenses honest but are willing to take a step back to let other more pure scorers get the spotlight.
except Chris Paul is a significantly better basketball player.
Yeah, Conley is solid, and his shooting this year has been really helpful to unlocking that Utah offence (same with the crazy surprise shooting from Clarkson), but he's a worse passer, rebounder and defender than Paul. His marginal edge in scoring doesn't really make them comparable. Paul v Booker is a much closer debate than Conley v Mitchell
I'm actually not quite sure. Obviously Paul is a better passer and rebounder, but the latter doesn't really add too much value defensively for a guard, and Paul has lost enough athleticism that he's not really the bulldog he was 4-6 years ago on that end. I think Conley's combination of defensive smarts and quickness makes him a really good guard defender (he's posting some very good adjusted defensive +/- numbers this season) and I don't really see this iteration of Paul being a better defender than him.

Also think that Paul's passing comes with a high opportunity cost as a secondary/tertiary star - he really needs to dominate the ball in order to fully unlock the value of his passing while Conley can still retain most of his passing value even as an on/off-ball hybrid.

Call me crazy, but I think that Conley might be a better player than Chris Paul in 2021.
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Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #100 on: April 14, 2021, 01:55:56 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era.

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.
Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.
Great point. TP.
The Celtics have actually had a pretty incredible run on pg's. This was just the third time since '09-10 they didn't have a PG in the all star game (Rondo '10-13, IT '16-17, Kyrie '18-19, Kemba '20).

More of an indicator of how weak the East has been at that position. Curry, Lillard, Paul, Westbrook, Conley all in the west.
I don't think there's any year there where Conley makes an all star team over a Celtic.

Mike Conley has been the most underrated player in the NBA for the last decade.
Not really. Conley is and has been a fine player, but he’s not elite at any one thing and I don’t think has ever been the best player on his team. Tough to make an All-Star case given that, and he shouldn’t have been one this year
I think he's been fantastic this year - to me he's the second best player on the Jazz behind Rudy Gobert.
Are you kidding me? That's just laughably untrue. That's like saying Marcus Smart has been the 2nd best player this year on the Cs next to Jaylen Brown. And then totally leaving off Tatum.
Saying that Donovan Mitchell is as good as Jayson Tatum while Gobert is the Jaylen Brown of the Jazz is the statement that's laughably untrue :laugh:
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #101 on: April 14, 2021, 07:04:51 AM »

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If you're a GM in any sport, you're bound to make mistakes.  There are too many variables to not make any.  Look at the Cavs, first overall pick in 2013, the went with Bennett.  the next two players off the board were Oladipo and Porter Jr.  You have to limit the mistakes you make, specially in the grand scheme of when they're the 1st overall pick.  I think Danny has done that.  People will look at this and another in GWill.  The reviews of GWill coming out of the draft were, that was a B+ or higher pick.  Does it look that way now, no, but he's in his second year and neither year has had a true training camp or off season program.  This is where players like PP flourish, four years in school.  Hey, it could be worse, the Bruins traded Tyler Seguin and got back a back of pucks!
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Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #102 on: April 14, 2021, 07:14:28 AM »

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There are too many variables to not make any.

Turns out, it's incredibly hard to judge whether or not 20-year-olds will end up being really good at basketball and able to remain injury-free some 5 years later.

Who'da thunk hey? :)

On a similar note; I'm not even able to tell you what I'm eating 2 days from now.

Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #103 on: April 14, 2021, 07:58:15 AM »

Offline JAH1892

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Rozier had to go.  He was a cancer.  No real getting around that.  That doesn't mean Kemba should have been the target though.  I do think that was a mistake by Ainge as Walker never really made sense for the team.  They didn't need a score first PG, especially one that isn't an elite shooter.  Team needed someone more like Brogdon, who should have been the target that summer.

👀 CALM DOWN

It was obvious Rozier was a baller, every fa pick up has been utterly meh both before the fact and how it panned out, go BIG or hold pat should be the way imo

Re: Kemba over Terry Rozier. Another Ainge blunder
« Reply #104 on: April 14, 2021, 08:52:49 AM »

Online jambr380

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Really it is amazing how much PG drama there has been on this club since the end of the KG era.

Before KG, as well.  Lots of debates about Banks, Delonte, Telfair, etc.  I don’t remember much griping about Gary Payton, I guess.
Kenny Anderson had a good stint here. People generally liked him.

Yeah, but imagine if Kenny played during the time of our forums, or worse, social media.  He would have been torn down constantly, especially when Chauncey’s career took off.
Great point. TP.
The Celtics have actually had a pretty incredible run on pg's. This was just the third time since '09-10 they didn't have a PG in the all star game (Rondo '10-13, IT '16-17, Kyrie '18-19, Kemba '20).

More of an indicator of how weak the East has been at that position. Curry, Lillard, Paul, Westbrook, Conley all in the west.
I don't think there's any year there where Conley makes an all star team over a Celtic.

Mike Conley has been the most underrated player in the NBA for the last decade.
Not really. Conley is and has been a fine player, but he’s not elite at any one thing and I don’t think has ever been the best player on his team. Tough to make an All-Star case given that, and he shouldn’t have been one this year
I think he's been fantastic this year - to me he's the second best player on the Jazz behind Rudy Gobert.
Are you kidding me? That's just laughably untrue. That's like saying Marcus Smart has been the 2nd best player this year on the Cs next to Jaylen Brown. And then totally leaving off Tatum.
Saying that Donovan Mitchell is as good as Jayson Tatum while Gobert is the Jaylen Brown of the Jazz is the statement that's laughably untrue :laugh:

Mitchell has been every bit as good as Tatum this season. I won't try to make a Brown/Gobert comparison since they are totally different players playing totally different roles/positions.