Who says "no" to this simple Rondo trade in off-season?

[fitzhickey]

Going back to the Rondo trade, I wouldn't do that. Mostly due  to the fact that I think Rondo will have one of his better seasons next season. His stats this season were all pretty good, except his FG%.

I want to build around Rondo and bring another star in next to him, as I think he could lead us to the Conference finals with a decent support cast.

[Eddie20]

I like this idea but I think Indiana says no.

I know Hibbert has laid an egg this season headed into the playoffs, but fact remains he's still a young, legit 7 footer who can play a big role in leading a team to victory.

Don't think Larry deals him to another Eastern Conference team for Rondo.

I could however see Hibbert being involved in a deal for Indy to get a more consistent PF/C in return like Kevin Love, Demarcus Cousins or maybe even Asik.

He's less than a year younger than Rondo.  Yet, many fans seem to consider Rondo an "old/past his prime point guard."

I've never heard anyone criticize Rondo for being "past his prime."

So you think Rondo can return to being a top fifteen player in the league next season?

Return?

To answer the thread title, I would say 2 members of this board would say no and I confidently say that without even knowing the details of the trade.

Yes, return.  Would you dispute that Rondo was considered to be a top fifteen player in the NBA for the 2012 season?

By whose standards? Yours? Tim's?

By the folks who vote for the All NBA teams.

By the folks who vote for the all star game reserves.

By the folks who cast the MVP votes.

By the folks who vote for the all defensive teams.

By the folks who vote for the ESPN annual NBA player rankings.

Tim's and my standards aren't really relevant.

Honestly speaking, him receiving those accolades was a gift. It was a gift that he was put in the situation he was in. A gift that he played with KG, Pierce, and Allen. A gift that he played for a marquee team and the national exposure he received helped generate votes in his favor. I am fairly certain that many other PG's would've put up similar numbers as him if placed in such a favorable situation.

But you only mentioned 1 season. Why? Does that mean that in your opinion Rondo was a top 15 player for only one season in his career? Wouldn't that mean that season of accolades, namely being named 3rd team all-NBA, was merely an aberration?

For the season you mentioned his numbers were the following:

11.6 PPG
4.7 RPG
11.4 APG
44.8 FG%
59.7 FT%
23.8 3PT%
1.8 SPG
3.6 TOV

For comparison Dragic, an obviously much less sought after player, just posted the following stats:

20.3 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.9 APG
50.5 FG%
76.0 FT%
40.8 3PT%
1.4 SPG
2.8 TOV

Removing the flashiness and name recognition and simply comparing those numbers it would be hard to say Dragic's numbers don't better Rondo's "top 15" season.

As far as my picking only one season, I picked the last season that he was healthy.  He got off to a great start during the subsequent 2012-2013 and was voted to the all star team as a starter.  Unfortunately, he tore up his knee and has been recovering ever since.

Not true. We were struggling (20-23) and were out of the playoffs. He was voted in by the fans, which is a glorified popularity contest. Similar to how Yao would get voted in ahead of Shaq and Magic was voted in when he didn't play a single minute.

When our players aged Rondo failed to take the next step and ascend his game to a higher level. His shooting never improved, he never improved his scoring, wasn't able to be a closer, and from 2009 to 2013 you could say Rondo didn't improve one iota.

[BballTim]

For the season you mentioned his numbers were the following:

11.6 PPG
4.7 RPG
11.4 APG
44.8 FG%
59.7 FT%
23.8 3PT%
1.8 SPG
3.6 TOV

For comparison Dragic, an obviously much less sought after player, just posted the following stats:

20.3 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.9 APG
50.5 FG%
76.0 FT%
40.8 3PT%
1.4 SPG
2.8 TOV

Removing the flashiness and name recognition and simply comparing those numbers it would be hard to say Dragic's numbers don't better Rondo's "top 15" season.

  If Dragic ends up outside the top 15 you'd have to consider that the (seeming majority) of voters who decide such things do more than just compare numbers to decide who's had a better year. Or, he could show up in that range of players and your argument would fall apart for a different reason.

Sure. If he does he'll have as many all team nominations as Rondo. They'll be some Suns fans claiming he's a top 15 player too.

Again, if that's the basis of your argument then your logic is flawed. He's been named to one 3rd team all NBA team. One. That's one in eight years. That's an aberration. In fact, I'll be willing to bet he doesn't sniff an all NBA team or the all-star team next year. TP's, your admission that Rondo is overrated, anything you want, really. Are you as confident your hero could return to his 2012 "career year" form as I am in my prediction?

  In 2012 Rondo was 3rd team all-nba. But where was he before  then? In 2009, not that far along. He got a mere 2 votes for the all-nba team. By 2010 he had made solid strides, finishing 17th in overall voting, the highest vote-getter among guards that weren't all-nba. In 2011 he was the highest vote-getter among players who didn't make the all-nba teams, in fact he got more votes than 2 of the players who were all-nba. It wasn't an aberration, it was what he had been heading towards for years. You think it's an aberration because you don't seem to follow things that closely. And, for the record, those 2 votes that he got in 2009 were 2 more all-nba votes than Dragic has in his career (he's the same age as Rondo btw). When you say it would be the same for Dragic, that's fairly ridiculous.

  So, obviously, is your inference that it's some Celtics fans that were claiming he was top 15. 3rd team all-nba, all-star, and he was 12th or so in espn's player rankings. If you think that people outside of Boston didn't think that Rondo was top 15 you're in denial.


  By the way, as for your "gift claim", how have the big three faired in recent years? In 2010 Rondo got 47 all-nba votes, PP got 6 and KG got 1. In 2011 Rondo get 68, PP got 55, KG got 32. In 2012 Rondo got 142, PP got 31 and KG got 22. I think your whole "Rondo was riding their coattails" theory is also a little far-fetched.

  As for your predictions that he won't sniff those teams in the future, I'd be willing to bet you've been making similar predictions for most of his career. If at first you don't succeed...

[Eddie20]

For the season you mentioned his numbers were the following:

11.6 PPG
4.7 RPG
11.4 APG
44.8 FG%
59.7 FT%
23.8 3PT%
1.8 SPG
3.6 TOV

For comparison Dragic, an obviously much less sought after player, just posted the following stats:

20.3 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.9 APG
50.5 FG%
76.0 FT%
40.8 3PT%
1.4 SPG
2.8 TOV

Removing the flashiness and name recognition and simply comparing those numbers it would be hard to say Dragic's numbers don't better Rondo's "top 15" season.

  If Dragic ends up outside the top 15 you'd have to consider that the (seeming majority) of voters who decide such things do more than just compare numbers to decide who's had a better year. Or, he could show up in that range of players and your argument would fall apart for a different reason.

Sure. If he does he'll have as many all team nominations as Rondo. They'll be some Suns fans claiming he's a top 15 player too.

Again, if that's the basis of your argument then your logic is flawed. He's been named to one 3rd team all NBA team. One. That's one in eight years. That's an aberration. In fact, I'll be willing to bet he doesn't sniff an all NBA team or the all-star team next year. TP's, your admission that Rondo is overrated, anything you want, really. Are you as confident your hero could return to his 2012 "career year" form as I am in my prediction?

  In 2012 Rondo was 3rd team all-nba. But where was he before  then? In 2009, not that far along. He got a mere 2 votes for the all-nba team. By 2010 he had made solid strides, finishing 17th in overall voting, the highest vote-getter among guards that weren't all-nba. In 2011 he was the highest vote-getter among players who didn't make the all-nba teams, in fact he got more votes than 2 of the players who were all-nba. It wasn't an aberration, it was what he had been heading towards for years. You think it's an aberration because you don't seem to follow things that closely. And, for the record, those 2 votes that he got in 2009 were 2 more all-nba votes than Dragic has in his career (he's the same age as Rondo btw). When you say it would be the same for Dragic, that's fairly ridiculous.

  So, obviously, is your inference that it's some Celtics fans that were claiming he was top 15. 3rd team all-nba, all-star, and he was 12th or so in espn's player rankings. If you think that people outside of Boston didn't think that Rondo was top 15 you're in denial.


  By the way, as for your "gift claim", how have the big three faired in recent years? In 2010 Rondo got 47 all-nba votes, PP got 6 and KG got 1. In 2011 Rondo get 68, PP got 55, KG got 32. In 2012 Rondo got 142, PP got 31 and KG got 22. I think your whole "Rondo was riding their coattails" theory is also a little far-fetched.

  As for your predictions that he won't sniff those teams in the future, I'd be willing to bet you've been making similar predictions for most of his career. If at first you don't succeed...

See, that's where you're wrong. Why would I have any reason to wish Rondo play poorly? I'm a C's fan first and foremost and would be beneficial to the cause for Rondo to have elevated his game into true superstar status. Truth is he simply didn't. He failed to improve certain aspects of his game and elevate his game to another level. The superstars do that. I remain objective and recognize that. It's okay to to cheer for your hero and simply acknowledging that he's not a superstar is okay. It doesn't make you any less of a fan.

[BballTim]

For the season you mentioned his numbers were the following:

11.6 PPG
4.7 RPG
11.4 APG
44.8 FG%
59.7 FT%
23.8 3PT%
1.8 SPG
3.6 TOV

For comparison Dragic, an obviously much less sought after player, just posted the following stats:

20.3 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.9 APG
50.5 FG%
76.0 FT%
40.8 3PT%
1.4 SPG
2.8 TOV

Removing the flashiness and name recognition and simply comparing those numbers it would be hard to say Dragic's numbers don't better Rondo's "top 15" season.

  If Dragic ends up outside the top 15 you'd have to consider that the (seeming majority) of voters who decide such things do more than just compare numbers to decide who's had a better year. Or, he could show up in that range of players and your argument would fall apart for a different reason.

Sure. If he does he'll have as many all team nominations as Rondo. They'll be some Suns fans claiming he's a top 15 player too.

Again, if that's the basis of your argument then your logic is flawed. He's been named to one 3rd team all NBA team. One. That's one in eight years. That's an aberration. In fact, I'll be willing to bet he doesn't sniff an all NBA team or the all-star team next year. TP's, your admission that Rondo is overrated, anything you want, really. Are you as confident your hero could return to his 2012 "career year" form as I am in my prediction?

  In 2012 Rondo was 3rd team all-nba. But where was he before  then? In 2009, not that far along. He got a mere 2 votes for the all-nba team. By 2010 he had made solid strides, finishing 17th in overall voting, the highest vote-getter among guards that weren't all-nba. In 2011 he was the highest vote-getter among players who didn't make the all-nba teams, in fact he got more votes than 2 of the players who were all-nba. It wasn't an aberration, it was what he had been heading towards for years. You think it's an aberration because you don't seem to follow things that closely. And, for the record, those 2 votes that he got in 2009 were 2 more all-nba votes than Dragic has in his career (he's the same age as Rondo btw). When you say it would be the same for Dragic, that's fairly ridiculous.

  So, obviously, is your inference that it's some Celtics fans that were claiming he was top 15. 3rd team all-nba, all-star, and he was 12th or so in espn's player rankings. If you think that people outside of Boston didn't think that Rondo was top 15 you're in denial.


  By the way, as for your "gift claim", how have the big three faired in recent years? In 2010 Rondo got 47 all-nba votes, PP got 6 and KG got 1. In 2011 Rondo get 68, PP got 55, KG got 32. In 2012 Rondo got 142, PP got 31 and KG got 22. I think your whole "Rondo was riding their coattails" theory is also a little far-fetched.

  As for your predictions that he won't sniff those teams in the future, I'd be willing to bet you've been making similar predictions for most of his career. If at first you don't succeed...

See, that's where you're wrong. Why would I have any reason to wish Rondo play poorly? I'm a C's fan first and foremost and would be beneficial to the cause for Rondo to have elevated his game into true superstar status.

  I'm not wrong.

 

Truth is he simply didn't. He failed to improve certain aspects of his game and elevate his game to another level. The superstars do that.

  Obviously he improved certain aspects of his game as he went from an average(ish) starter to, loathe though you are to accept it, a regular all-star who was on or close to on multiple all-nba teams. Look at his play in the 2008 playoffs to his dominant play in more recent postseasons. Most superstars don't improve at anywhere near that rate. Rondo went from 10/4/7 in the 2008 playoffs to 17/7/12 in his last playoffs. Why don't you start listing the "superstars" that improved by more than that? I'm sure the list will be long, so just stick to who you think are the 5-6 best players in the league.

I remain objective and recognize that. It's okay to to cheer for your hero and simply acknowledging that he's not a superstar is okay. It doesn't make you any less of a fan.

  I'd put more stock in the "objective" claim if you seemed more knowledgeable about what you're discussing. Does not having the slightest clue that Rondo's been fairly close to making other all-nba teams while Dragic has never even received a single vote for one make you objective? You act like I'm making ridiculous comments about Rondo that you're correcting because you're objective enough to see the comments for what they are. The opposite is true here.

[Eddie20]

For the season you mentioned his numbers were the following:

11.6 PPG
4.7 RPG
11.4 APG
44.8 FG%
59.7 FT%
23.8 3PT%
1.8 SPG
3.6 TOV

For comparison Dragic, an obviously much less sought after player, just posted the following stats:

20.3 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.9 APG
50.5 FG%
76.0 FT%
40.8 3PT%
1.4 SPG
2.8 TOV

Removing the flashiness and name recognition and simply comparing those numbers it would be hard to say Dragic's numbers don't better Rondo's "top 15" season.

  If Dragic ends up outside the top 15 you'd have to consider that the (seeming majority) of voters who decide such things do more than just compare numbers to decide who's had a better year. Or, he could show up in that range of players and your argument would fall apart for a different reason.

Sure. If he does he'll have as many all team nominations as Rondo. They'll be some Suns fans claiming he's a top 15 player too.

Again, if that's the basis of your argument then your logic is flawed. He's been named to one 3rd team all NBA team. One. That's one in eight years. That's an aberration. In fact, I'll be willing to bet he doesn't sniff an all NBA team or the all-star team next year. TP's, your admission that Rondo is overrated, anything you want, really. Are you as confident your hero could return to his 2012 "career year" form as I am in my prediction?

  In 2012 Rondo was 3rd team all-nba. But where was he before  then? In 2009, not that far along. He got a mere 2 votes for the all-nba team. By 2010 he had made solid strides, finishing 17th in overall voting, the highest vote-getter among guards that weren't all-nba. In 2011 he was the highest vote-getter among players who didn't make the all-nba teams, in fact he got more votes than 2 of the players who were all-nba. It wasn't an aberration, it was what he had been heading towards for years. You think it's an aberration because you don't seem to follow things that closely. And, for the record, those 2 votes that he got in 2009 were 2 more all-nba votes than Dragic has in his career (he's the same age as Rondo btw). When you say it would be the same for Dragic, that's fairly ridiculous.

  So, obviously, is your inference that it's some Celtics fans that were claiming he was top 15. 3rd team all-nba, all-star, and he was 12th or so in espn's player rankings. If you think that people outside of Boston didn't think that Rondo was top 15 you're in denial.


  By the way, as for your "gift claim", how have the big three faired in recent years? In 2010 Rondo got 47 all-nba votes, PP got 6 and KG got 1. In 2011 Rondo get 68, PP got 55, KG got 32. In 2012 Rondo got 142, PP got 31 and KG got 22. I think your whole "Rondo was riding their coattails" theory is also a little far-fetched.

  As for your predictions that he won't sniff those teams in the future, I'd be willing to bet you've been making similar predictions for most of his career. If at first you don't succeed...

See, that's where you're wrong. Why would I have any reason to wish Rondo play poorly? I'm a C's fan first and foremost and would be beneficial to the cause for Rondo to have elevated his game into true superstar status.

  I'm not wrong.

 

Truth is he simply didn't. He failed to improve certain aspects of his game and elevate his game to another level. The superstars do that.

  Obviously he improved certain aspects of his game as he went from an average(ish) starter to, loathe though you are to accept it, a regular all-star who was on or close to on multiple all-nba teams. Look at his play in the 2008 playoffs to his dominant play in more recent postseasons. Most superstars don't improve at anywhere near that rate. Rondo went from 10/4/7 in the 2008 playoffs to 17/7/12 in his last playoffs. Why don't you start listing the "superstars" that improved by more than that? I'm sure the list will be long, so just stick to who you think are the 5-6 best players in the league.

I remain objective and recognize that. It's okay to to cheer for your hero and simply acknowledging that he's not a superstar is okay. It doesn't make you any less of a fan.

  I'd put more stock in the "objective" claim if you seemed more knowledgeable about what you're discussing. Does not having the slightest clue that Rondo's been fairly close to making other all-nba teams while Dragic has never even received a single vote for one make you objective? You act like I'm making ridiculous comments about Rondo that you're correcting because you're objective enough to see the comments for what they are. The opposite is true here.

I was referring to Rondo's game from 2009-2013, as my previous post in the thread indicates. I obviously acknowledge that he improved since his first 2 seasons in the league.

Dragic vs Rondo, right now, May 12th, 2014, is a very interesting comparison. Dragic has improved yearly and is now, at the very least, on par with your idol. Moreover, I would say he would be a better fit in Stevens' system.

Are you a Rondo fan or a C's fan? And I ask that sincerely. I mean if Rondo gets traded is that the last we hear of you on here? A lot of people follow players, not necessarily teams, so perhaps you're one.

It's funny how you think your opinion on Rondo is shared by the masses. If you only knew how many people have sent me private messages to not bother with you when you start spewing your Rondo nonsense.

[footey]

Both teams say no.

Must mean it's a good trade then. Everyone equally unhappy.

I think if Hibbert reverts to laying an egg the balance of play-offs, they would jump at the chance to make this trade happen, if they could get Rondo to agree to an extension.

[Celtics18]

I like this idea but I think Indiana says no.

I know Hibbert has laid an egg this season headed into the playoffs, but fact remains he's still a young, legit 7 footer who can play a big role in leading a team to victory.

Don't think Larry deals him to another Eastern Conference team for Rondo.

I could however see Hibbert being involved in a deal for Indy to get a more consistent PF/C in return like Kevin Love, Demarcus Cousins or maybe even Asik.

He's less than a year younger than Rondo.  Yet, many fans seem to consider Rondo an "old/past his prime point guard."

I've never heard anyone criticize Rondo for being "past his prime."

So you think Rondo can return to being a top fifteen player in the league next season?

Return?

To answer the thread title, I would say 2 members of this board would say no and I confidently say that without even knowing the details of the trade.

Yes, return.  Would you dispute that Rondo was considered to be a top fifteen player in the NBA for the 2012 season?

By whose standards? Yours? Tim's?

By the folks who vote for the All NBA teams.

By the folks who vote for the all star game reserves.

By the folks who cast the MVP votes.

By the folks who vote for the all defensive teams.

By the folks who vote for the ESPN annual NBA player rankings.

Tim's and my standards aren't really relevant.

Honestly speaking, him receiving those accolades was a gift. It was a gift that he was put in the situation he was in. A gift that he played with KG, Pierce, and Allen. A gift that he played for a marquee team and the national exposure he received helped generate votes in his favor. I am fairly certain that many other PG's would've put up similar numbers as him if placed in such a favorable situation.

But you only mentioned 1 season. Why? Does that mean that in your opinion Rondo was a top 15 player for only one season in his career? Wouldn't that mean that season of accolades, namely being named 3rd team all-NBA, was merely an aberration?

For the season you mentioned his numbers were the following:

11.6 PPG
4.7 RPG
11.4 APG
44.8 FG%
59.7 FT%
23.8 3PT%
1.8 SPG
3.6 TOV

For comparison Dragic, an obviously much less sought after player, just posted the following stats:

20.3 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.9 APG
50.5 FG%
76.0 FT%
40.8 3PT%
1.4 SPG
2.8 TOV

Removing the flashiness and name recognition and simply comparing those numbers it would be hard to say Dragic's numbers don't better Rondo's "top 15" season.

As far as my picking only one season, I picked the last season that he was healthy.  He got off to a great start during the subsequent 2012-2013 and was voted to the all star team as a starter.  Unfortunately, he tore up his knee and has been recovering ever since.

Not true. We were struggling (20-23) and were out of the playoffs. He was voted in by the fans, which is a glorified popularity contest. Similar to how Yao would get voted in ahead of Shaq and Magic was voted in when he didn't play a single minute.

When our players aged Rondo failed to take the next step and ascend his game to a higher level. His shooting never improved, he never improved his scoring, wasn't able to be a closer, and from 2009 to 2013 you could say Rondo didn't improve one iota.

I don't remember anyone, not even Rondo's most ardent detractors, feeling like Rondo didn't deserve to be the starting point guard for the Eastern Conference in 2013.  Sure, it's a popularity contest, but Rondo's popular for a reason.  It's because he's good. 

As to his not improving from 2009 to 2013, I guess that's somewhat debatable, but even if he didn't and doesn't improve any more, he was good enough from 2009 to 2013 to be one of the best players in the league.

Although he put up decent numbers returning from injury this past season, I didn't think he looked as good as has in the past in his rehab stint.  I'm just hoping he returns to form for the 2014 season. 

We'll see what happens. 

[D.o.s.]

I say no. I'm not reading this thread, but I'm saying "no."

[BballTim]

Dragic vs Rondo, right now, May 12th, 2014, is a very interesting comparison. Dragic has improved yearly and is now, at the very least, on par with your idol. Moreover, I would say he would be a better fit in Stevens' system.

  Sure, if by "right now" you mean throw out the bulk of their careers and solely focus on a career year for one player vs a year when the other player's coming back from a major injury. And he's not my "idol". Stop acting like a child because people poke holes in your flimsy arguments.

Are you a Rondo fan or a C's fan? And I ask that sincerely. I mean if Rondo gets traded is that the last we hear of you on here? A lot of people follow players, not necessarily teams, so perhaps you're one.

  I'd assume I follow the C's (players and the team) more closely than you do, based on your comments in this and other discussions. I guess you think you'd have to be obsessed with a player to know that many of the comments you read about them are clearly at odds with reality, that's not really the case.

It's funny how you think your opinion on Rondo is shared by the masses. If you only knew how many people have sent me private messages to not bother with you when you start spewing your Rondo nonsense.

  I'm not sure I could have summed up this discussion any better myself. Rondo gets loads of votes for all-star games an generally gets selected to the team when he's not voted in. He gets a fair amount of votes for all nba teams, the coaches put him on all-defense teams. He's been top 12 or so in the espn player rankings and top 20 1-2 other years. He even gets the occasional MVP vote.

  He comes out pretty high in just about any measure of "the masses" opinion of players. Yet you find it hilarious that I'd think that other people have a high opinion of him. Why? Because a few of his detractors on celticsblog have sent you emails agreeing with you. I'm sure that some of those posters you share emails with would agree with you that your small group comprise the defacto nation-wide majority opinion of Rondo despite any and all evidence to the contrary. I would tend to disagree.