The Ballstop Trio: Tatum, Rozier, Morris

[NKY fan]

After seeing a gane in which Tatum is on fire and dropping 21 in a half, Tatum takes only two shots in a second half but still gets some assists. I'm not considering him a black hole. Rozier and Morris I can't defend.

HEY!!! someone actually noticed!!! TATUM DOESN'T GET THE BALL ENOUGH!!!

we're too busy running plays for the role player marcus morris, the guy who hasn't got much of a future, the guy who should only see the ball when a more talennted player has to pass it off.

it's too bad there isn't another coach qualified to get these guys to play the right way.

Tatum's problem is that he struggles to find shots within the flow of the offense. He's either spotting up or going iso. He doesn't move well without the ball, where he can get easy looks from cuts, and his subpar defense doesn't lead to transition offense. As for his shooting, he has a slow release, so it's easy for defenders to run him off the line. All that said, it's pretty easy to see why he would struggle to find shots on a team with the talent we have.

Morris and Rozier are two of the most frustrating C's in recent memory. It's so obvious that they're playing for a contract. It's not only their bad shoot selection, but the stealing of rebounds is annoying too. Based on the eye test, I would say that we have a lot less transition looks when Rozier is in the game because he often unnecessarily goes down low to grab rebounds that his teammates have position on, instead of trying to leak out and receive an outlet pass to start the break.

I thought about your first paragraph and wondered how would Tatums offensive game look if he played with a great floor general like Rondo or Paul...
Rondo isn’t happening but if we can sign and trade Kyrie for Paul I can live with that

[nickagneta]

After seeing a gane in which Tatum is on fire and dropping 21 in a half, Tatum takes only two shots in a second half but still gets some assists. I'm not considering him a black hole. Rozier and Morris I can't defend.

HEY!!! someone actually noticed!!! TATUM DOESN'T GET THE BALL ENOUGH!!!

we're too busy running plays for the role player marcus morris, the guy who hasn't got much of a future, the guy who should only see the ball when a more talennted player has to pass it off.

it's too bad there isn't another coach qualified to get these guys to play the right way.

13.1 shots a game, 2nd most on the team. That's 14.5% of shots the team takes in an average game. One seventh of all shots.

On this team with Irving, Hayward, Horford, Brown, Rozier, Smart and Morris. That's plenty of shots.

[Csfan1984]

After seeing a gane in which Tatum is on fire and dropping 21 in a half, Tatum takes only two shots in a second half but still gets some assists. I'm not considering him a black hole. Rozier and Morris I can't defend.

HEY!!! someone actually noticed!!! TATUM DOESN'T GET THE BALL ENOUGH!!!

we're too busy running plays for the role player marcus morris, the guy who hasn't got much of a future, the guy who should only see the ball when a more talennted player has to pass it off.

it's too bad there isn't another coach qualified to get these guys to play the right way.

13.1 shots a game, 2nd most on the team. That's 14.5% of shots the team takes in an average game. One seventh of all shots.

On this team with Irving, Hayward, Horford, Brown, Rozier, Smart and Morris. That's plenty of shots.

How do you feel about not feeding hot players though? On a night he or anyone is shooting well they should feed a hot guy. Warriors feed the hot hand even with their loaded talent. But on this team it seems only the PGs have that luxury see Rozier, Smart and Irving just bombing away at times. The team seems too often to want everyone to have shots even if guys are slumping, it's costing the team IMO.

[Tr1boy]

What about Irving

Who is the king of ballstop

[LilRip]

After seeing a gane in which Tatum is on fire and dropping 21 in a half, Tatum takes only two shots in a second half but still gets some assists. I'm not considering him a black hole. Rozier and Morris I can't defend.

HEY!!! someone actually noticed!!! TATUM DOESN'T GET THE BALL ENOUGH!!!

we're too busy running plays for the role player marcus morris, the guy who hasn't got much of a future, the guy who should only see the ball when a more talennted player has to pass it off.

it's too bad there isn't another coach qualified to get these guys to play the right way.

13.1 shots a game, 2nd most on the team. That's 14.5% of shots the team takes in an average game. One seventh of all shots.

On this team with Irving, Hayward, Horford, Brown, Rozier, Smart and Morris. That's plenty of shots.

How do you feel about not feeding hot players though? On a night he or anyone is shooting well they should feed a hot guy. Warriors feed the hot hand even with their loaded talent. But on this team it seems only the PGs have that luxury see Rozier, Smart and Irving just bombing away at times. The team seems too often to want everyone to have shots even if guys are slumping, it's costing the team IMO.

Hard to argue with this. The team philosophy this year seems to place emphasis on getting everyone shots, rather than riding hot hands. Unlike the IT4 days where we clearly had a featured scorer (like the Nets with Russell) and ran almost everything through him

[LilRip]

What about Irving

Who is the king of ballstop

I hope someone could run the stats but 1) isn’t kyrie crazy efficient, 2) kyrie actually moves the ball fairly quickly if he isn’t iso-ing his man, and 3) kyrie actually has court vision and thus, hits guys with passes

[blink]

After seeing a gane in which Tatum is on fire and dropping 21 in a half, Tatum takes only two shots in a second half but still gets some assists. I'm not considering him a black hole. Rozier and Morris I can't defend.

HEY!!! someone actually noticed!!! TATUM DOESN'T GET THE BALL ENOUGH!!!

we're too busy running plays for the role player marcus morris, the guy who hasn't got much of a future, the guy who should only see the ball when a more talennted player has to pass it off.

it's too bad there isn't another coach qualified to get these guys to play the right way.

Tatum's problem is that he struggles to find shots within the flow of the offense. He's either spotting up or going iso. He doesn't move well without the ball, where he can get easy looks from cuts, and his subpar defense doesn't lead to transition offense. As for his shooting, he has a slow release, so it's easy for defenders to run him off the line.

This point was very well articulated.  TP.

I think Tatum's average foot speed / quickness and his inability to move without the ball stops him from being more effective running off screens, running backcuts where he would get EASY shots.  I remember last year Tatum would run off screens, do more back cuts and in general seemed like he was willing to move without the ball more.  So maybe all this is just him being coached to do this.  I really hope not though.

I wouldn't consider Tatum's ballstopping irreversible at this point.  Not quite as sure about Rozier and Morris.  But it is probably highly likely that Rozier and Morris are gone after this year.

[gpap]

It looks like Hayward is feeling alot better and this is the best he's felt all season.
https://clutchpoints.com/celtics-news-gordon-hayward-says-hes-feeling-best-he-has-all-season/

As a result, Brad may want to consider starting Hayward again and having Tatum come off the bench for the playoffs.

The next few games should be a good litmus test.

[ozgod]

What about Irving

Who is the king of ballstop

I hope someone could run the stats but 1) isn’t kyrie crazy efficient, 2) kyrie actually moves the ball fairly quickly if he isn’t iso-ing his man, and 3) kyrie actually has court vision and thus, hits guys with passes

Here's the tracking data for touches from NBA.com, provided by Second Spectrum. Sorted by avg seconds/touch.



And here's the same list, sorted by avg dribbles/touch.



For context, here's the overall NBA, ranked by avg secs/touch. Kyrie is near the bottom with 4.31 secs/touch (I had to shrink the picture to fit him in).



The stats might surprise some. I'll leave it to others to try to interpret. Keep in mind tracking data is not available for every game.

[gouki88]

What about Irving

Who is the king of ballstop

I love the way that you continue to perpetuate this complete myth even after I and many other posters have shown it to be provably wrong.

Literally just bias incarnate

[Sophomore]

“Morris and Rozier are two of the most frustrating C's in recent memory. It's so obvious that they're playing for a contract.”

I’ve heard this argument, and it might be true. If it is, they’re getting the worst possible advice. Fitting in and contributing to winning basketball would have done much more to raise their contract value.

It’s got to be a combination of (1) chasing a contract and (2) not understanding their abilities and limits. They thought they were different players than they are, and haven’t adjusted.

[mctyson]

After seeing a game in which Tatum is on fire and dropping 21 in a half, Tatum takes only two shots in a second half but still gets some assists. I'm not considering him a black hole. Rozier and Morris I can't defend.

Rozier is a problem, thought it is not his fault.  He is a fine player when he has no leash and does not have to make players better around him (nor does he care about that).  There are times when you need a guy like that on the court.

Morris is a problem, and it is his fault, because he could play tougher and harder than he has.

[CptZoogs]

What about Irving

Who is the king of ballstop

I hope someone could run the stats but 1) isn’t kyrie crazy efficient, 2) kyrie actually moves the ball fairly quickly if he isn’t iso-ing his man, and 3) kyrie actually has court vision and thus, hits guys with passes

Here's the tracking data for touches from NBA.com, provided by Second Spectrum. Sorted by avg seconds/touch.



And here's the same list, sorted by avg dribbles/touch.



For context, here's the overall NBA, ranked by avg secs/touch. Kyrie is near the bottom with 4.31 secs/touch (I had to shrink the picture to fit him in).



The stats might surprise some. I'll leave it to others to try to interpret. Keep in mind tracking data is not available for every game.

This is useful info, but ball stopping isn’t just about time of possession.  My issue with Morris is the rate at which his touches end in a shot.  It has particularly bothered me when he fails to swing the ball to an on open guy in the corner, opting instead for the longer 3.

[Celtics4ever]

I think you can have two of them on the court at once max, three is too many.

[Celtics4ever]

How come the guys that never pass the ball to Tatum once he starts hot never get called Ballstops.   It is the same things and has happened several times in the past week.   Hot start and then he does not see the ball for a long time.


To me that is just as bad as a ballstop.