Report: Celtics Young Players Frustrated with Hayward's Minutes

[Sophomore]

Brown to starting line-up.  He's served his punishment long enough.

Kyrie 32 / Rozier 16
Smart 30 / Hayward 10 / Rozier 8
Brown 26 / Hayward 14 / Morris 8
Tatum 30 / Morris 18
Horford 28 / Baynes 14 / Theis 6

Morris has just been better than him all year. He can have his spot back when he outplays him.

We are getting close to that point. Small sample size, but over the past five games I'm going to say Brown has been about even with Mook; better on counting stats, but overall about even. Going to be interesting to see how things develop over the next 24 games.

The guy I'm most worried about is Tatum, who still seems to be struggling to figure out his role. He did not play well against Brooklyn.

That's some rough coaching if you're pulling a player who has started 29 games to overall success. (21-8) out of the starting lineup because his three point shooting has dipped from the unsustainable highs he hit earlier this year.

Yeah, wasn't saying I would pull him. Just that Brown is starting to play at about Mook's level. Also it's not just a linear scale. Brown is doing things that work well on the second unit. Would the units work as well if he and Morris flipped? I don't know. In general I would say no; this is working well.

That said, if we play Golden State again I definitely want more of Brown guarding Durant and less of Morris. Night and day.

[RodyTur10]

Rozier: “Young guys who can play, guys who did things in their career''

Ouch. That's a burn for Hayward.

I understand Terry, but this attitude should ship him out of Boston. What he probably wants to anyway.

[Sophomore]

Well, with more minutes terry plays better.

With more minutes with Hayward the team plays worse.

Yeah. I think terry has a leg to stand on.

Gordon has been trash

This year, 562 minutes with Hayward on the floor and Terry off the floor:

114.3 Offensive Rating
107.9 Defensive Rating

+6.4

542 minutes with Terry on the floor and Hayward off:

103.7 Offensive Rating
100.7 Defensive Rating

+3

TP. That's a better on-off than the crude comparison I made. Rozier is really, really bad news for the offense.

[RodyTur10]

Brown to starting line-up.  He's served his punishment long enough.

Kyrie 32 / Rozier 16
Smart 30 / Hayward 10 / Rozier 8
Brown 26 / Hayward 14 / Morris 8
Tatum 30 / Morris 18
Horford 28 / Baynes 14 / Theis 6

Morris has just been better than him all year. He can have his spot back when he outplays him.

We are getting close to that point. Small sample size, but over the past five games I'm going to say Brown has been about even with Mook; better on counting stats, but overall about even. Going to be interesting to see how things develop over the next 24 games.

The guy I'm most worried about is Tatum, who still seems to be struggling to figure out his role. He did not play well against Brooklyn.

That's some rough coaching if you're pulling a player who has started 29 games to overall success. (21-8) out of the starting lineup because his three point shooting has dipped from the unsustainable highs he hit earlier this year.

Yeah, wasn't saying I would pull him. Just that Brown is starting to play at about Mook's level. Also it's not just a linear scale. Brown is doing things that work well on the second unit. Would the units work as well if he and Morris flipped? I don't know. In general I would say no; this is working well.

That said, if we play Golden State again I definitely want more of Brown guarding Durant and less of Morris. Night and day.

Brown had a terrible first month, but has been good since. As soon as those unsustainable shooting percentages of Morris are going to drop (and that's already happening) we should send Morris back to the bench. I'm still for trying Horford/Baynes upfront, but we could try Brown at SF and Tatum at PF.

[Roy H.]

Rozier: “Young guys who can play, guys who did things in their career''

Ouch. That's a burn for Hayward.

I understand Terry, but this attitude should ship him out of Boston. What he probably wants to anyway.

In context it wasn’t directed at Hayward.

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/terry-rozier-gets-real-about-kyrie-irvings-criticism-celtics

[csfansince60s]

A lot of posters on here (myself included) have been suggesting this since December and have been frequently pilloried for it.

 The younger players resent Hayward and his perception as a teachers pet with too much deference given to him for too little production!

It doesn’t really matter wether the young guys are right or wrong, justified or not in how they feel. What matters is that they feel that way and the divisive Consequences those feelings generate.

Perception is reality especially to the younger guys. And what they perceive is in inequity that favors Hayward and works against them,  underscored by his very poor production.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

A lot of posters on here (myself included) have been suggesting this since December and have been frequently pilloried for it.

 The younger players resent Hayward and his perception as a teachers pet with too much deference given to him for too little production!

It doesn’t really matter wether the young guys are right or wrong, justified or not in how they feel. What matters is that they feel that way and the divisive Consequences those feelings generate.

Perception is reality especially to the younger guys. And what they perceive is in inequity that favors Hayward and works against them,  underscored by his very poor production.

I have a feeling that even if Hayward had never struggled this season, and was averaging 20 points a game, Rozier would still be unhappy.

[LarBrd33]

Hayward isn’t even starting.  He’s getting 20 minutes off the bench and taking like 5 shots per night. What is there to be resentful of? 

[JSD]

been reading this kinda stuff on the net a while , even Steven A mentioned it months a go.

That contract is not tradable. Let him rest, get physical training,  ....

But get him off the court for awhile.

Hayward's contract is traceable this summer in any potential AD deal. This according to Zach Lowe on the latest Lowe Post.

[RodyTur10]

Well, with more minutes terry plays better.

With more minutes with Hayward the team plays worse.

Yeah. I think terry has a leg to stand on.

Gordon has been trash

This year, 562 minutes with Hayward on the floor and Terry off the floor:

114.3 Offensive Rating
107.9 Defensive Rating

+6.4

542 minutes with Terry on the floor and Hayward off:

103.7 Offensive Rating
100.7 Defensive Rating

+3

TP. That's a better on-off than the crude comparison I made. Rozier is really, really bad news for the offense.

Actually these numbers aren't completely fair, since they include that time until november 25th that Hayward was part of the starting line-up. If we look at the numbers that they both mainly played bench minutes their numbers are surprisingly similar. Stats since november 25th:

Traditional stats (per 36 minutes)

Gordon Hayward: 15.5 points / 5.7 rebounds / 5.1 assists / 2.3 TO / 1.1 steals / 0.4 blocks at shooting splits: 43/33/85
Terry Rozier: 14.4 points / 6.5 rebounds / 5.4 assists / 1.6 TO / 1.6 steals / 0.4 blocks at shooting splits: 39/35/86

Advanced stats (30 games)

Gordon Hayward: 111.0 OR - 107.8 DR = 3.2 NR / 23.7 AST ratio / 54.3 TS% / 18.7 USG%
Terry Rozier: 106.8 OR - 107.1 DR = - 0.3 NR / 25.7 AST ratio / 51.2 TS% / 18.1 USG%

Pretty amazing that Rozier is able to be a net negative on the court, while the team has been on a good stretch with a 21-9 record at the best point differential of +9.1 in the whole league!

[gpap]

Now this doesn't surprise me.

However, (and maybe I am being naive) but I've got to believe Hayward will return to being the same player he used to be. I refused to believe his days in Utah were an aberration. Unfortunately, it just seems to be taking a while.

The one who's probably getting the most frustrated by this is Jaylen Brown.

[blink]

Hasn't something like this been posted before? Even then, I don't think it's a non-issue. If anyone should be frustrated, it should be Rozier for literally offering nothing to the team... This guy is averaging a measly 8.7 PPG, and 2.9 APG in about 23 MPG... On dreadful and woeful 38% FG... No one should be pointing any fingers, nonetheless someone like Rozier.

Yeah, the only guy who can really beef about this is right now is Jaylen Brown. But he was just saying that he likes coming off the bench because he can just attack and score. No one else has given any reason as to why they're deserving of more minutes.

Jaylen can hardly argue that he ought to be starting over Smart or Morris.

Umm I am not so sure about that one.  I don't think Smart has really outplayed him much in the last two months, they just bring different stuff to the table.

[hpantazo]

All I gotta say about this report is, funny how this comes out now while AD negotiations are going on. Someone is trying to downgrade the value of our assets.

[gouki88]

All I gotta say about this report is, funny how this comes out now while AD negotiations are going on. Someone is trying to downgrade the value of our assets.

Rhymes with Itch Call?

[RodyTur10]

Well, with more minutes terry plays better.

With more minutes with Hayward the team plays worse.

Yeah. I think terry has a leg to stand on.

Gordon has been trash

This year, 562 minutes with Hayward on the floor and Terry off the floor:

114.3 Offensive Rating
107.9 Defensive Rating

+6.4

542 minutes with Terry on the floor and Hayward off:

103.7 Offensive Rating
100.7 Defensive Rating

+3

TP. That's a better on-off than the crude comparison I made. Rozier is really, really bad news for the offense.

Stats since november 25th:

Traditional stats (per 36 minutes)

Gordon Hayward: 15.5 points / 5.7 rebounds / 5.1 assists / 2.3 TO / 1.1 steals / 0.4 blocks at shooting splits: 43/33/85
Terry Rozier: 14.4 points / 6.5 rebounds / 5.4 assists / 1.6 TO / 1.6 steals / 0.4 blocks at shooting splits: 39/35/86

What's also interesting that there are only 20 other NBA players that average 14/5/5 or better per 36, while having played at least 500 minutes during that period.

The names: Harden, Curry, Antetokounmpo, Irving, Durant, James, Griffin, Jokic, Beal, Doncic, Holiday, Westbrook, DeRozan, Bledsoe, Wade, Oladipo, Simmons, Horford, Winslow and Gasol.

That's good company. And 4(!) Celtics (Irving, Horford, Hayward and Rozier) on that list, nice  .