Gordon Hayward Substraction by Addition

[KungPoweChicken]

Steve Smith: 1995 - 1999.

[KungPoweChicken]

The team would likely be better. Hayward is awful. I'm not sure why Celtics fans were predicting All NBA/All Star status from a guy who had one all-star appearance in his career. I would give two future first round picks to dump him. Easy decision.

Good thing you're not the GM.

Yep! I especially love how he glosses over 3 years of roughly 20/5/4 production

Many bad players have put up numbers on bad teams.

Yes. But those Utah teams made the playoffs and were on the upper echelon of the strong Western Conference.

No. In that three year stretch of Hayward putting up "20/5/5" Utah made the playoffs once.

Fair enough to this. Recency bias and the general trajectory (I believe in the 2015-16 season they were pegged as a good young team on the cusp of the playoffs) made me think that Jazz team was better than it actually was.

That said, Hayward's playmaking has to be better than Magette's right... even counting stats show that Hayward was a better playmaker

The team actually got better once Hayward left too as Donovan Mitchell took Hayward's place and the team didn't miss a beat.

[LilRip]

Gordon Hayward has games where he looks extremely tentative out there. Looking to pass on his drives with practically zero threat to score. Times like those make me think I’d rather have Brad Wanamaker on the floor

I would rather have Wanamaker running the second unit over Rozier or Hayward.

At least Wanamaker can hit his threes.

Same. He’s not a ball hog like Rozier and he doesn’t wilt like Hayward.

Honestly, it really  looks mental for Hayward. He has games where he plays great, usually against lesser opponents and when the team is rolling. Then he has games where he reminds me of Markelle Fultz out there. Not in that he won’t shoot, but his lack of confidence in his abilities is apparent. Always caught either pressing too hard or hesitating for too long.

[KungPoweChicken]

Shareef Abdur Rahim: 1997 - 2003.

[gouki88]

The team would likely be better. Hayward is awful. I'm not sure why Celtics fans were predicting All NBA/All Star status from a guy who had one all-star appearance in his career. I would give two future first round picks to dump him. Easy decision.

Good thing you're not the GM.

Yep! I especially love how he glosses over 3 years of roughly 20/5/4 production

Many bad players have put up numbers on bad teams.

Yes. But those Utah teams made the playoffs and were on the upper echelon of the strong Western Conference.

No. In that three year stretch of Hayward putting up "20/5/5" Utah made the playoffs once.

Fair enough to this. Recency bias and the general trajectory (I believe in the 2015-16 season they were pegged as a good young team on the cusp of the playoffs) made me think that Jazz team was better than it actually was.

That said, Hayward's playmaking has to be better than Magette's right... even counting stats show that Hayward was a better playmaker

The team actually got better once Hayward left too as Donovan Mitchell took Hayward's place and the team didn't miss a beat.

You’re acting as if the addition of Rubio + the development of Gobert & Snyder were nonfactors.

Shareef Abdur Rahim: 1997 - 2003.

What? He was a good scoring combo forward. Are all non All-Star players bad??

[KungPoweChicken]

The team would likely be better. Hayward is awful. I'm not sure why Celtics fans were predicting All NBA/All Star status from a guy who had one all-star appearance in his career. I would give two future first round picks to dump him. Easy decision.

Good thing you're not the GM.

Yep! I especially love how he glosses over 3 years of roughly 20/5/4 production

Many bad players have put up numbers on bad teams.

Yes. But those Utah teams made the playoffs and were on the upper echelon of the strong Western Conference.

No. In that three year stretch of Hayward putting up "20/5/5" Utah made the playoffs once.

Fair enough to this. Recency bias and the general trajectory (I believe in the 2015-16 season they were pegged as a good young team on the cusp of the playoffs) made me think that Jazz team was better than it actually was.

That said, Hayward's playmaking has to be better than Magette's right... even counting stats show that Hayward was a better playmaker

The team actually got better once Hayward left too as Donovan Mitchell took Hayward's place and the team didn't miss a beat.

You’re acting as if the addition of Rubio + the development of Gobert & Snyder were nonfactors.

Shareef Abdur Rahim: 1997 - 2003.

What? He was a good scoring combo forward. Are all non All-Star players bad??

You talk about players who put up 20ppg as if they are in rarefied air. They are not. I'm showing you that it's not uncommon for mediocre players to put up numbers on scrub teams. Simply give them a high usage rate. It's fairly common. Hayward's run in Utah is not any different from Abdur Rahim, Steve Smith, Mashburn, etc. Even Ricky Davis had a nice little run.

[ozgod]

Gordon Hayward has games where he looks extremely tentative out there. Looking to pass on his drives with practically zero threat to score. Times like those make me think I’d rather have Brad Wanamaker on the floor

The biggest issue for Gordon as I mentioned in the other Gordon thread is his inconsistency. He has games where he looks good and engaged and scores 15+ points, then he has games where he struggles to get into the flow of the offense and he has 5 or less. I think he's had more single digit games this year since 2012. I expected less scoring from him because of how many players we have and how it's an ensemble type offense but he has pretty big swings - certainly 2 pt games, 4 pt games, are poor value for money for the Celtics $30m.

I don't have stats to back this up but I've watched every Celtics game this year and if he starts well and gets some plays run for him, like a dribble handoff screen or something, it usually sets the tone for him. If he misses a few sitters (e.g. that layup he missed tonight) then he seems to get down on himself then the pressure to contribute offensively seems to build. Then he gets hesitant whether it's to pass or to shoot. On the boards he's worked hard, as with defending, though he's clearly lacking lateral quickness. Then he struggles to influence the game and ends up basically standing in the corner waiting for a pass from a guy driving and kicking the ball out.

They mentioned a stat in the pregame show on NBCSports Boston that the Celtics are 12-3 when Hayward has a usage rate of 20% or higher and 18-15 (now 18-16) when he has less. He's averaging 18.3% right now. Maybe (like Jaylen and Terry) he needs the ball in his hands more. He's a career 36% 3 point shooter so it's not like he's going to go Steph Curry on people when he gets subbed in.

[RockinRyA]

There's a reason why the warriors are playing cousins important minutes like tonight even though they were playing better with looney or iguodala.

Its the same reason why we are giving hayward reps.

[gouki88]

The team would likely be better. Hayward is awful. I'm not sure why Celtics fans were predicting All NBA/All Star status from a guy who had one all-star appearance in his career. I would give two future first round picks to dump him. Easy decision.

Good thing you're not the GM.

Yep! I especially love how he glosses over 3 years of roughly 20/5/4 production

Many bad players have put up numbers on bad teams.

Yes. But those Utah teams made the playoffs and were on the upper echelon of the strong Western Conference.

No. In that three year stretch of Hayward putting up "20/5/5" Utah made the playoffs once.

Fair enough to this. Recency bias and the general trajectory (I believe in the 2015-16 season they were pegged as a good young team on the cusp of the playoffs) made me think that Jazz team was better than it actually was.

That said, Hayward's playmaking has to be better than Magette's right... even counting stats show that Hayward was a better playmaker

The team actually got better once Hayward left too as Donovan Mitchell took Hayward's place and the team didn't miss a beat.

You’re acting as if the addition of Rubio + the development of Gobert & Snyder were nonfactors.

Shareef Abdur Rahim: 1997 - 2003.

What? He was a good scoring combo forward. Are all non All-Star players bad??

You talk about players who put up 20ppg as if they are in rarefied air. They are not. I'm showing you that it's not uncommon for mediocre players to put up numbers on scrub teams. Simply give them a high usage rate. It's fairly common. Hayward's run in Utah is not any different from Abdur Rahim, Steve Smith, Mashburn, etc. Even Ricky Davis had a nice little run.

And you make it sound as if any one on an NBA team could put up 20ppg.

[KungPoweChicken]

The team would likely be better. Hayward is awful. I'm not sure why Celtics fans were predicting All NBA/All Star status from a guy who had one all-star appearance in his career. I would give two future first round picks to dump him. Easy decision.

Good thing you're not the GM.

Yep! I especially love how he glosses over 3 years of roughly 20/5/4 production

Many bad players have put up numbers on bad teams.

Yes. But those Utah teams made the playoffs and were on the upper echelon of the strong Western Conference.

No. In that three year stretch of Hayward putting up "20/5/5" Utah made the playoffs once.

Fair enough to this. Recency bias and the general trajectory (I believe in the 2015-16 season they were pegged as a good young team on the cusp of the playoffs) made me think that Jazz team was better than it actually was.

That said, Hayward's playmaking has to be better than Magette's right... even counting stats show that Hayward was a better playmaker

The team actually got better once Hayward left too as Donovan Mitchell took Hayward's place and the team didn't miss a beat.

You’re acting as if the addition of Rubio + the development of Gobert & Snyder were nonfactors.

Shareef Abdur Rahim: 1997 - 2003.

What? He was a good scoring combo forward. Are all non All-Star players bad??

You talk about players who put up 20ppg as if they are in rarefied air. They are not. I'm showing you that it's not uncommon for mediocre players to put up numbers on scrub teams. Simply give them a high usage rate. It's fairly common. Hayward's run in Utah is not any different from Abdur Rahim, Steve Smith, Mashburn, etc. Even Ricky Davis had a nice little run.

And you make it sound as if any one on an NBA team could put up 20ppg.

I'm not making it sound like that. I just gave you examples of mediocre players who did it. If you have no stats, examples, or data to back up whatever point it is you're trying to make, then I'm done. It gets boring when you chime in with no stats or data and simply speak off emotion.

[celtics4ever33]

The team would likely be better. Hayward is awful. I'm not sure why Celtics fans were predicting All NBA/All Star status from a guy who had one all-star appearance in his career. I would give two future first round picks to dump him. Easy decision.

Good thing you're not the GM.

Yep! I especially love how he glosses over 3 years of roughly 20/5/4 production

Many bad players have put up numbers on bad teams.

Yes. But those Utah teams made the playoffs and were on the upper echelon of the strong Western Conference.

No. In that three year stretch of Hayward putting up "20/5/5" Utah made the playoffs once.

Fair enough to this. Recency bias and the general trajectory (I believe in the 2015-16 season they were pegged as a good young team on the cusp of the playoffs) made me think that Jazz team was better than it actually was.

That said, Hayward's playmaking has to be better than Magette's right... even counting stats show that Hayward was a better playmaker

The team actually got better once Hayward left too as Donovan Mitchell took Hayward's place and the team didn't miss a beat.

You’re acting as if the addition of Rubio + the development of Gobert & Snyder were nonfactors.

Shareef Abdur Rahim: 1997 - 2003.

What? He was a good scoring combo forward. Are all non All-Star players bad??

You talk about players who put up 20ppg as if they are in rarefied air. They are not. I'm showing you that it's not uncommon for mediocre players to put up numbers on scrub teams. Simply give them a high usage rate. It's fairly common. Hayward's run in Utah is not any different from Abdur Rahim, Steve Smith, Mashburn, etc. Even Ricky Davis had a nice little run.

And you make it sound as if any one on an NBA team could put up 20ppg.

I'm not making it sound like that. I just gave you examples of mediocre players who did it. If you have no stats, examples, or data to back up whatever point it is you're trying to make, then I'm done. It gets boring when you chime in with no stats or data and simply speak off emotion.

You are right about that. Look at Jahlil Okafor who basically was told to retire and quit forever, now he is an easy 20 and 10

Kenneth Faried, who can't get any playing time anywhere, but gets a 20 and 14 game.

The league is all about usage and a "chance" , of course these are not going to win you rings or even playoff births, but statistically they may seem like good players.

Hayward possibly falls into that category. I think he is a bit better than the average statistical one and done , but not by much.

[IDreamCeltics]

Is there any doubt we would be better off without him?

I think there is, yeah.

Just removing Hayward in a vaccum we probably arent better, but he does absoluetly kill us some nights. I don't even really blame him, his leg snapped in half and thats gonna take a while to  come back from. I wouldn't trade him, because I don't think you could without giving up assets to move him. But also because I think with a full offseason he will come back next year much closer to what he was in Utah. For this seaosn however he needs his role reduced, he is a good passer but it deosnt help that uch if he can't penetrate the paint, and is scared to shoot. Honestly give more play making to Brown and Tatum, or trade Rozier for a better initiator.

I've said this before, but this year he's been almost identical to Evan Turner his last year in Boston.

Stats

That's not an all-star player, but it's a useful player on a Stevens' team.

Evan Turner was paid about 3.5 million a season in Boston... Fans thought it was laughable when he got a 17 million a year from Portland... Hayward is being paid over 30 million a year.

The Celtics front office basically bait-and-switched themselves by chasing guys like George/Butler/Durant and then convincing themselves (and many of the posters on this board) Hayward was in the same tier and worth the same money.

[cltc5]

The guy is a good outside shooter.  That’s where he needs to stay.  Stop having him drive and dunk and scoop in traffic.  Just make him hang in the perimeter until he feels he’s ready.  He’s playing scared and until he stops either put him in a different position or sit him

[GreenFaith1819]

Gordon Hayward is STILL our 2nd best player on this team..closely followed by Big Al and Tatum is closing the gap as well.

Has he played like this all season? Certainly not. This has hurt us in some of our losses, especially the last month or so.

As I watched last night's game and looked at the box scores I'd loved for Hayward to have given us 10 points......

We are NOT that far from GSW...a rebound here, a stop there....10 points from Hayward....and we'd have won last night.

With THAT being said only Gordon Hayward knows where he's at right now, mentally and physically. I'm sure he's close to Coach Stevens. I'm sure they communicate.

If Coach isn't going to change things up (subtract minutes, add minutes, change lineups, etc, etc, etc) - then I'll stand by Gordon.

Give this TIME.

[Birdman]

Right now he shouldnt be pllaying in the 4th quarter..hate say this but he is hurting us