Poll

Resign?

Re-sign him at a price over $14 mill. He does a lot for the team
20 (14.6%)
Too much money. The Limited offense isn't worth this much
117 (85.4%)

Total Members Voted: 137

Author Topic: Marcus Smart RFA [Merged - finalizing 4 year deal]  (Read 179361 times)

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Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #420 on: July 06, 2018, 02:48:06 AM »

Offline colincb

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If any team thought Smart was worth $14MM, that team would have made an offer knowing that BOS would have been hard-pressed to match and stay out of the lux tax. Everyone knows what everybody else has to spend. It's not rocket science to the people who have to deal with cap issues as a big part of their job.

Don't assume that Smart's going to get a long-term offer from BOS either. The heart and soul of the team has a nice ring to it, but the heart, soul, and future of the Cs are the three UFAs they’ve acquired along with Tatum and Brown. Smart's not going to get the same minutes as last year and Danny may well go for someone who can spark the second unit instead.

I still think Danny's intends to re-sign Smart at a number that both sides can live with and that will keep the Cs out of the lux tax this year. Nonetheless, Danny will do what he thinks is in the Celtics' best interest and in Danny I trust a lot more than Smart and, especially, Smart's agent.

I only half agree with you.  Teams that might have been interested in Smart, most notably Indiana, had the choice of making a reasonable offer that the Celtics might match, even if difficult for them.  However, doing so would have tied the team’s negotiable cap space up until this Sunday, when other potential targets might have been long off the board.  There’s a reason that all the major free agents that are left are restricted ones, and that’s because no one is going to sign those players until after the moratorium period is over in 10 hours.  This year almost all the money has dried up, however.

I also feel Ainge is willing to match a Smart offer that takes the team reasonably into the tax.  The Celtics rightfully believe they have a championship contender, and you don’t let an important, even if not most important, piece walk away because you’re worried about paying the repeater tax four years from now.  The preference is of course to avoid that, but if Smart got his $14 million I really believe the team would match.  Of course, this in itself helps to keep Smart from getting that offer, because no one wants to help Ainge sign Smart to a long-term deal.

We're far apart on our thinking about the Cs willingness to dip a toe into the luxury tax this year to sign Smart. There's no need to and the cost is prohibitive down the road because you're bound to get hit with an extra year of luxury tax at a substantial amount. You don't go into the tax for $3 or $4 million to keep Smart happy, especially if that's not the market for his talents.

Don't think the league has felt the full effect of the luxury tax system yet, but we can already see that OKC can cut Melo outright and save over $100 million. That's a sobering eye-opener of how the tax escalates.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 02:58:54 AM by colincb »

Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #421 on: July 06, 2018, 03:09:39 AM »

Offline colincb

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One last thought about the luxury tax. GSW's bill is going to skyrocket too, but they're trying to sell seats to a new arena and they have to have a Championship team to justify the high ticket prices. Cannot imagine the Cs going that deep into the tax, unless they start thinking about their own arena.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/ostler/article/Warriors-new-arena-gives-some-season-12720962.php

Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #422 on: July 06, 2018, 03:10:51 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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If Smart really feels like he's being undervalued he should just take the QO and become a UFA next summer.

Honestly, I wish more RFAs would 'bet on themselves' and do this.

Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #423 on: July 06, 2018, 04:11:56 AM »

Offline trickybilly

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Well, 60 hours left to match any offers for Marcus. Crickets...

Is it possible that noone has made an offer above the MLE? Is that why we are hearing nothing?

Surely Marcus' agent is taking meetings... and if so, why wouldn't they just concoct rumors to drive up the price?
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Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #424 on: July 06, 2018, 07:10:04 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Well, 60 hours left to match any offers for Marcus. Crickets...

Is it possible that noone has made an offer above the MLE? Is that why we are hearing nothing?

Surely Marcus' agent is taking meetings... and if so, why wouldn't they just concoct rumors to drive up the price?
That is almost certainly the case.  Teams generally don't go after other teams' RFAs.  When they do, it isn't for a defensive specialist like Smart.  There are now only 3 teams with cap space above MLE: Kings, Bulls and Hawks.  There is no reason for any of those teams to go after Smart.   

Concocting rumors wouldn't help.  There has to be an actual contract offer from another team and then there would be 3 days to match.  Ainge is smart enough to know the market.  He's not going to bid against himself. 

Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #425 on: July 06, 2018, 07:29:38 AM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #426 on: July 06, 2018, 07:34:38 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Well, 60 hours left to match any offers for Marcus. Crickets...

Is it possible that noone has made an offer above the MLE? Is that why we are hearing nothing?

Surely Marcus' agent is taking meetings... and if so, why wouldn't they just concoct rumors to drive up the price?
That is almost certainly the case.  Teams generally don't go after other teams' RFAs.  When they do, it isn't for a defensive specialist like Smart.  There are now only 3 teams with cap space above MLE: Kings, Bulls and Hawks.  There is no reason for any of those teams to go after Smart.   

Concocting rumors wouldn't help.  There has to be an actual contract offer from another team and then there would be 3 days to match.  Ainge is smart enough to know the market.  He's not going to bid against himself.
This.  The QO is way below his market value.  He may not be building a relationship with Smart, but he is running a business.

Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #427 on: July 06, 2018, 07:37:17 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #428 on: July 06, 2018, 08:10:23 AM »

Offline colincb

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All the players getting one-year contracts this year will be free agents again next along with the normal free agent class. More cap money. More free agents chasing it. If Smart gets a compromise deal in the $39-41 MM range for 4 years, and I think he will, he should take it.

Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #429 on: July 06, 2018, 08:23:22 AM »

Offline saltlover

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If any team thought Smart was worth $14MM, that team would have made an offer knowing that BOS would have been hard-pressed to match and stay out of the lux tax. Everyone knows what everybody else has to spend. It's not rocket science to the people who have to deal with cap issues as a big part of their job.

Don't assume that Smart's going to get a long-term offer from BOS either. The heart and soul of the team has a nice ring to it, but the heart, soul, and future of the Cs are the three UFAs they’ve acquired along with Tatum and Brown. Smart's not going to get the same minutes as last year and Danny may well go for someone who can spark the second unit instead.

I still think Danny's intends to re-sign Smart at a number that both sides can live with and that will keep the Cs out of the lux tax this year. Nonetheless, Danny will do what he thinks is in the Celtics' best interest and in Danny I trust a lot more than Smart and, especially, Smart's agent.

I only half agree with you.  Teams that might have been interested in Smart, most notably Indiana, had the choice of making a reasonable offer that the Celtics might match, even if difficult for them.  However, doing so would have tied the team’s negotiable cap space up until this Sunday, when other potential targets might have been long off the board.  There’s a reason that all the major free agents that are left are restricted ones, and that’s because no one is going to sign those players until after the moratorium period is over in 10 hours.  This year almost all the money has dried up, however.

I also feel Ainge is willing to match a Smart offer that takes the team reasonably into the tax.  The Celtics rightfully believe they have a championship contender, and you don’t let an important, even if not most important, piece walk away because you’re worried about paying the repeater tax four years from now.  The preference is of course to avoid that, but if Smart got his $14 million I really believe the team would match.  Of course, this in itself helps to keep Smart from getting that offer, because no one wants to help Ainge sign Smart to a long-term deal.

We're far apart on our thinking about the Cs willingness to dip a toe into the luxury tax this year to sign Smart. There's no need to and the cost is prohibitive down the road because you're bound to get hit with an extra year of luxury tax at a substantial amount. You don't go into the tax for $3 or $4 million to keep Smart happy, especially if that's not the market for his talents.

Don't think the league has felt the full effect of the luxury tax system yet, but we can already see that OKC can cut Melo outright and save over $100 million. That's a sobering eye-opener of how the tax escalates.

A few of things:

Firstly, it’s very hard to predict four years into the future when you might care about the repeater tax.  Does Irving leave next year? Does Horford (in 2019 or 2020?) Does Hayward fully recover?  Losing any of those three will probably knock you below the tax.  Furthermore, Horford and Hayward will both be hitting their 4th contract next time around — if you’ve been spending to put together a championship team, do either work with you to make certain their salaries don’t prevent the extension of another key contributor earlier in his career?  And then there’s the possibility of a potential revenue spike coming in due to gambling revenues.  If that spike comes 3-4 years from now, it can also alleviate the issue, either by taking the team below the tax or to an affordable level.

Additionally, let’s talk about market value.  Firstly, I said that Ainge would likely be willing to match a contract of a higher amount than he’s willing to offer, even if it meant going into the tax.  That is, in fact, market value.  Secondly, market value this year and next year might not be the same.  This year Smart will not get offers because Ainge has the right of first refusal, and teams are wary of giving Smart an offer that Ainge would match, because that means they’ve helped the Celtics resign Smart.  Next year, no such right of first refusal will exist, at the same time a ton of teams will have cap room.  His market value next year could be substantial, and getting something done this summer could allow you to keep him down the road.  None of us know whether the Celtics truly want to keep him for many more years, but if they do, going a little higher this year is not bidding against yourself — it’s bidding against the existential threat posed by unrestricted free agency and next year’s cap space.

Finally, I’m going to reiterate this.  If the Celtics truly think they have a team with a real chance to win the title (and from all info they do feel this, and outside observers seem to agree with this assessment that they should feel this way) you pay to keep that opportunity.  It’s what the last 5 years have been about, to get to this point.  You don’t bail on that because you’re worried about the luxury tax in four years.  Not with all the uncertainty described above.

Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #430 on: July 06, 2018, 08:40:47 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Other reporters and Walter McCarty https://twitter.com/waltermccarty/status/1015048374976999424

have refuted the no contact report. While I don't doubt Marcus is unhappy with the long process (RFA is a drag) him and the C's are talking or at least the C's and his agent.

Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #431 on: July 06, 2018, 08:58:46 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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So what is the most we can realistically offer Smart and stay out of the tax this year, either through staying out of the tax right now or trading non-essential pieces later in the year before the deadline?
Recovering Joe Skeptic, but inching towards a relapse.

Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #432 on: July 06, 2018, 09:58:32 AM »

Offline saltlover

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So what is the most we can realistically offer Smart and stay out of the tax this year, either through staying out of the tax right now or trading non-essential pieces later in the year before the deadline?

We can offer Smart right around 5 years, $52 million guaranteed by stretching or trading Nader (the difference is about $400k over the life of the contract if he’s stretched or traded).  We can also give him a trade bonus of 15%.  Finally, we can offer him performance bonuses of up to 15% a year. It’s not clear to me how... aggressive... the team can be with these.  For example, could we offer him a bonus this year of 15% if he gets DPOY.  That’s highly unlikely to happen, and if Smart played so well that he earned DPOY, I think you have to be okay with eating the luxury tax because that happened.  The question that I have not been able to answer yet is how easy can subsequent bonuses be to attain.  Can it be a simple playing time bonus (say, 1000 minutes played) or a team success bonus (make the playoffs)?  Or would it also have to be something considered “unlikely.”  The CBA seems to be silent about this.  I do know that bonuses don’t have to be uniform throughout the life of the contract, but at a certain point you get to rules circumvention and a disallowed contract.

Anyway, if you’re allowed to do a funky bonus regime (something that he’s not hitting this year, but something that is highly likely in future years) you’re getting to around 5 years, $58.5 million while staying under the tax.  That bonus regime is probably not allowed, but something in the middle might be (1st team defense AND 2300 minutes played this year, All-NBA defense OR 1800 minutes subsequent years).  All are considered unlikely, but Smart could reasonably expect to hit those thresholds in some future years, and has a chance to hit it this year.

Also, a player option can always sweeten the pot.

Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #433 on: July 06, 2018, 11:29:30 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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So what is the most we can realistically offer Smart and stay out of the tax this year, either through staying out of the tax right now or trading non-essential pieces later in the year before the deadline?

We can offer Smart right around 5 years, $52 million guaranteed by stretching or trading Nader (the difference is about $400k over the life of the contract if he’s stretched or traded).  We can also give him a trade bonus of 15%.  Finally, we can offer him performance bonuses of up to 15% a year. It’s not clear to me how... aggressive... the team can be with these.  For example, could we offer him a bonus this year of 15% if he gets DPOY.  That’s highly unlikely to happen, and if Smart played so well that he earned DPOY, I think you have to be okay with eating the luxury tax because that happened.  The question that I have not been able to answer yet is how easy can subsequent bonuses be to attain.  Can it be a simple playing time bonus (say, 1000 minutes played) or a team success bonus (make the playoffs)?  Or would it also have to be something considered “unlikely.”  The CBA seems to be silent about this.  I do know that bonuses don’t have to be uniform throughout the life of the contract, but at a certain point you get to rules circumvention and a disallowed contract.

Anyway, if you’re allowed to do a funky bonus regime (something that he’s not hitting this year, but something that is highly likely in future years) you’re getting to around 5 years, $58.5 million while staying under the tax.  That bonus regime is probably not allowed, but something in the middle might be (1st team defense AND 2300 minutes played this year, All-NBA defense OR 1800 minutes subsequent years).  All are considered unlikely, but Smart could reasonably expect to hit those thresholds in some future years, and has a chance to hit it this year.

Also, a player option can always sweeten the pot.

TP. Super knowledgeable about this stuff, per usual.

Why was I thinking that we couldn’t offer him a five year less-than-max deal? Perhaps that’s only w/ rookie scale extensions that I’m thinking about?
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Re: Any Marcus Smart rumors?
« Reply #434 on: July 06, 2018, 11:36:09 AM »

Offline saltlover

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So what is the most we can realistically offer Smart and stay out of the tax this year, either through staying out of the tax right now or trading non-essential pieces later in the year before the deadline?

We can offer Smart right around 5 years, $52 million guaranteed by stretching or trading Nader (the difference is about $400k over the life of the contract if he’s stretched or traded).  We can also give him a trade bonus of 15%.  Finally, we can offer him performance bonuses of up to 15% a year. It’s not clear to me how... aggressive... the team can be with these.  For example, could we offer him a bonus this year of 15% if he gets DPOY.  That’s highly unlikely to happen, and if Smart played so well that he earned DPOY, I think you have to be okay with eating the luxury tax because that happened.  The question that I have not been able to answer yet is how easy can subsequent bonuses be to attain.  Can it be a simple playing time bonus (say, 1000 minutes played) or a team success bonus (make the playoffs)?  Or would it also have to be something considered “unlikely.”  The CBA seems to be silent about this.  I do know that bonuses don’t have to be uniform throughout the life of the contract, but at a certain point you get to rules circumvention and a disallowed contract.

Anyway, if you’re allowed to do a funky bonus regime (something that he’s not hitting this year, but something that is highly likely in future years) you’re getting to around 5 years, $58.5 million while staying under the tax.  That bonus regime is probably not allowed, but something in the middle might be (1st team defense AND 2300 minutes played this year, All-NBA defense OR 1800 minutes subsequent years).  All are considered unlikely, but Smart could reasonably expect to hit those thresholds in some future years, and has a chance to hit it this year.

Also, a player option can always sweeten the pot.

TP. Super knowledgeable about this stuff, per usual.

Why was I thinking that we couldn’t offer him a five year less-than-max deal? Perhaps that’s only w/ rookie scale extensions that I’m thinking about?

Yes, the 5-year limit with extensions is for max extensions only off rookie deals.  Once you hit free agency, you can go 5 years with Bird rights, as we did with Crowder 3 years ago.