Is Kyrie a superstar? (poll)

[cltc5]

**** this thread.  Ask anyone if they'd rather have kyrie come playoff time than Isaiah and it's hands down yes.  I love how people forget how unproductive IT has been in games against good teams and in the playoffs compared to kyrie.  Superstars rise above.

[Smokeeye123]

He’s not a surefire top 15 player. I have (in no particular order)

Lebron
Kawhi
Durant
Giannis
PG13
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
CP3
Wall
Butler
Davis
Cousins
Towns

All above him. That’s 14 players. So for the 15th spot I think he’s fighting with Lillard, who I think are really similar players. But that’s not even mentioning Derozan, Hayward, Griffin, and Gobert who I could potentially see someone taking over Kyrie.

Edit: Add in Klay and Draymond who are guys you could potentially argue for over Kyrie.

Cousins and Butler are not better than Kyrie lol

I'd even argue that Irving is better than CP3 at this point since Paul is like 32. Also since when is John Wall hands down better than Kyrie?

[RJ87]

He’s not a surefire top 15 player. I have (in no particular order)

Lebron
Kawhi
Durant
Giannis
PG13
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
CP3
Wall
Butler
Davis
Cousins
Towns

All above him. That’s 14 players. So for the 15th spot I think he’s fighting with Lillard, who I think are really similar players. But that’s not even mentioning Derozan, Hayward, Griffin, and Gobert who I could potentially see someone taking over Kyrie.

Edit: Add in Klay and Draymond who are guys you could potentially argue for over Kyrie.

Cousins and Butler are not better than Kyrie lol

I'd even argue that Irving is better than CP3 at this point since Paul is like 32. Also since when is John Wall hands down better than Kyrie?

I definitely think John Wall is better than Kyrie at this point. He's a 20/10 guy who also gives you solid defense.

[RockinRyA]

He’s not a surefire top 15 player. I have (in no particular order)

Lebron
Kawhi
Durant
Giannis
PG13
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
CP3
Wall
Butler
Davis
Cousins
Towns

All above him. That’s 14 players. So for the 15th spot I think he’s fighting with Lillard, who I think are really similar players. But that’s not even mentioning Derozan, Hayward, Griffin, and Gobert who I could potentially see someone taking over Kyrie.

Edit: Add in Klay and Draymond who are guys you could potentially argue for over Kyrie.

Cousins and Butler are not better than Kyrie lol

I'd even argue that Irving is better than CP3 at this point since Paul is like 32. Also since when is John Wall hands down better than Kyrie?

I definitely think John Wall is better than Kyrie at this point. He's a 20/10 guy who also gives you solid defense.

Yeah I think Wall is better, but solid defense no. Dude was caught napping a lot of times in our series.

[Bucketgetter]

He’s not a surefire top 15 player. I have (in no particular order)

Lebron
Kawhi
Durant
Giannis
PG13
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
CP3
Wall
Butler
Davis
Cousins
Towns

All above him. That’s 14 players. So for the 15th spot I think he’s fighting with Lillard, who I think are really similar players. But that’s not even mentioning Derozan, Hayward, Griffin, and Gobert who I could potentially see someone taking over Kyrie.

Edit: Add in Klay and Draymond who are guys you could potentially argue for over Kyrie.

Cousins and Butler are not better than Kyrie lol

I'd even argue that Irving is better than CP3 at this point since Paul is like 32. Also since when is John Wall hands down better than Kyrie?

This was my response to Kyrie being declared a surefire top 15 guy. I didn’t say these guys were hands down better, but you can definitely make an argument for them and in my opinion they are better. My point also was you could make an argument guys like Klay, Draymond, Griffin, Lillard or Gobert being more valuable than Kyrie. That puts him anywhere from 15-25, depending on what you like. So I would call him a surefire top 25 player, but he is nowhere near surefire 15. And I personally don’t think he’s top 15 at all.

As far as Cousins and Butler not being better than Kyrie, please watch Kyrie play defense, then Jimmy play defense and get back to me. Butler is an actual 2 way star. Doesn’t have any real weaknesses. Kyrie’s game is filled with holes. He can really only do one thing, which is create for himself. Not much else. And unless you’re counting Cousins' attitude against him, in terms of actual play on the court, Cousins is an absolute beast and decisively more effective than Kyrie.

[gouki88]

He’s not a surefire top 15 player. I have (in no particular order)

Lebron
Kawhi
Durant
Giannis
PG13
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
CP3
Wall
Butler
Davis
Cousins
Towns

All above him. That’s 14 players. So for the 15th spot I think he’s fighting with Lillard, who I think are really similar players. But that’s not even mentioning Derozan, Hayward, Griffin, and Gobert who I could potentially see someone taking over Kyrie.

Edit: Add in Klay and Draymond who are guys you could potentially argue for over Kyrie.

Cousins and Butler are not better than Kyrie lol

I'd even argue that Irving is better than CP3 at this point since Paul is like 32. Also since when is John Wall hands down better than Kyrie?

This was my response to Kyrie being declared a surefire top 15 guy. I didn’t say these guys were hands down better, but you can definitely make an argument for them and in my opinion they are better. My point also was you could make an argument guys like Klay, Draymond, Griffin, Lillard or Gobert being more valuable than Kyrie. That puts him anywhere from 15-25, depending on what you like. So I would call him a surefire top 25 player, but he is nowhere near surefire 15. And I personally don’t think he’s top 15 at all.

As far as Cousins and Butler not being better than Kyrie, please watch Kyrie play defense, then Jimmy play defense and get back to me. Butler is an actual 2 way star. Doesn’t have any real weaknesses. Kyrie’s game is filled with holes. He can really only do one thing, which is create for himself. Not much else. And unless you’re counting Cousins' attitude against him, in terms of actual play on the court, Cousins is an absolute beast and decisively more effective than Kyrie.

In terms of actual basketball talent, DMC is almost a safe top 5 guy. His issues have hurt his value (and I personally think they are vastly overstated).

He averaged 27/11/4.6 while shooting above league average from 3. If he can just figure it out for one season it's game over for the league.

When talking about Kyrie, I think once you go past Kawhi, LeBron, Durant, AD, Harden and Westbrook, everyone is on a similar level to one another until you get to the Gobert type of guys.

Kyrie is anywhere from a top 10 guy to a top 25 guy, merely depending on what you value. That being said, so was IT last year

In all seriousness, I think under CBS Kyrie and Hayward will have two monster seasons together.

[CelticsElite]

Cousins is not a modern center. Too much low post game

The pelicans were better when he goes off the floor

[RJ87]

He’s not a surefire top 15 player. I have (in no particular order)

Lebron
Kawhi
Durant
Giannis
PG13
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
CP3
Wall
Butler
Davis
Cousins
Towns

All above him. That’s 14 players. So for the 15th spot I think he’s fighting with Lillard, who I think are really similar players. But that’s not even mentioning Derozan, Hayward, Griffin, and Gobert who I could potentially see someone taking over Kyrie.

Edit: Add in Klay and Draymond who are guys you could potentially argue for over Kyrie.

Cousins and Butler are not better than Kyrie lol

I'd even argue that Irving is better than CP3 at this point since Paul is like 32. Also since when is John Wall hands down better than Kyrie?

I definitely think John Wall is better than Kyrie at this point. He's a 20/10 guy who also gives you solid defense.

Yeah I think Wall is better, but solid defense no. Dude was caught napping a lot of times in our series.

I mean, he has made an all defensive team in his career. He's not perfect 100% of the time, but he's proven he's capable.

[jpotter33]

He’s not a surefire top 15 player. I have (in no particular order)

Lebron
Kawhi
Durant
Giannis
PG13
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
CP3
Wall
Butler
Davis
Cousins
Towns

All above him. That’s 14 players. So for the 15th spot I think he’s fighting with Lillard, who I think are really similar players. But that’s not even mentioning Derozan, Hayward, Griffin, and Gobert who I could potentially see someone taking over Kyrie.

Edit: Add in Klay and Draymond who are guys you could potentially argue for over Kyrie.

Cousins and Butler are not better than Kyrie lol

I'd even argue that Irving is better than CP3 at this point since Paul is like 32. Also since when is John Wall hands down better than Kyrie?

I definitely think John Wall is better than Kyrie at this point. He's a 20/10 guy who also gives you solid defense.

Yeah I think Wall is better, but solid defense no. Dude was caught napping a lot of times in our series.

Yeah, same here. After watching the Wiz a lot towards the end of the year and playoffs, Wall's defense is greatly exaggerated. He may have been better early in his career, but he's certainly no better than an average defender at this point.

[RJ87]

He’s not a surefire top 15 player. I have (in no particular order)

Lebron
Kawhi
Durant
Giannis
PG13
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
CP3
Wall
Butler
Davis
Cousins
Towns

All above him. That’s 14 players. So for the 15th spot I think he’s fighting with Lillard, who I think are really similar players. But that’s not even mentioning Derozan, Hayward, Griffin, and Gobert who I could potentially see someone taking over Kyrie.

Edit: Add in Klay and Draymond who are guys you could potentially argue for over Kyrie.

Cousins and Butler are not better than Kyrie lol

I'd even argue that Irving is better than CP3 at this point since Paul is like 32. Also since when is John Wall hands down better than Kyrie?

I definitely think John Wall is better than Kyrie at this point. He's a 20/10 guy who also gives you solid defense.

Yeah I think Wall is better, but solid defense no. Dude was caught napping a lot of times in our series.

Yeah, same here. After watching the Wiz a lot towards the end of the year and playoffs, Wall's defense is greatly exaggerated. He may have been better early in his career, but he's certainly no better than an average defender at this point.

Even average defense makes him a more well rounded PG than Irving or IT.

[Csfan1984]

I'd put him in the top 10. I like him more than Wall, CP3, PG13, Cousins, Butler, Towns and so on.


KD, LeBron, Curry, Leonard and Davis are the guys I put ahead of him.

Westbrook, Giannis, and Harden are right there with Irving.

[dysgenic]

I'd put him in the top 10. I like him more than Wall, CP3, PG13, Cousins, Butler, Towns and so on.


KD, LeBron, Curry, Leonard and Davis are the guys I put ahead of him.

Westbrook, Giannis, and Harden are right there with Irving.

Thing is, Kyrie is 25 years old. So maybe the better question is who you would rather have as opposed to who is better right now.

[mmmmm]

James Harden ast/gm  age 25 14/15 season    7.0
-------------------------------   15/16 season     7.5
Mike D'Antoni becomes coach 16/17 season     11.2
________________________________________

Kyrie Irving  ast/gm  age 25   16/17 season     5.8

The point being the coach and teammates can really effect this part of your game.

plus lebron handles the ball a lot. imagine if even half of lebrons assists went to kyrie, kyrie would average a double double

Well, do we think that's likely to happen here?  In our offense last year, we gradually shifted a lot of the assists from Thomas to Horford, in order to use Thomas more off-the ball.  This is easily seen in their respective assist rates.  Thomas' declined slightly as the year progressed while Horford's rose.

I would expect Brad to continue to leverage Horford's ability to make plays as a passer out of both the high & low post.  Further, Hayward is also a fantastic ball-handler and passer who's skills Stevens seems likely to want to leverage.

Unless we think Brad will switch to an offense that focuses around one ball-dominant PG who is the source of most assists, I'm not seeing where Irving is likely to see a huge increase in his assist rates.  It's also not like the team around him is suddenly going to be better shooters than the one he was on.  I can see a small bump upward in assists if Brad has him do less ISO and more pick & roll.

[mmmmm]

Cousins is not a modern center. Too much low post game

The pelicans were better when he goes off the floor

Cousins has been a fairly decent 3PT shooter the last two seasons at 36-37% 3PT% on a pretty solid sample of 5-6 attempts per game.   Synergy tracking data shows that he also happens to one of the most prolific passing bigs in the NBA, though his assist rates don't show it (hard to get assists when your teammates suck at making shots).

I think it's a little too early to say too much about how Cousins fits in with New Orleans.   This year will be far more relevant than the tiny 17 game sample last year.

[mr. dee]

If what you mean by Superstar is mainstream material, then yes. Kyrie is a superstar in that sense.