SI.com: Danny's summer was a flop, second worst among "notable" teams

[jdz101]

Kozlodoev's assessments of Hayward almost appear like he has him confused with another completely different player.

Pay them little to no attention.

[Chris22]

Danny got us Hayward, Tatum, Morris, Baynes, and the Lakers pick next year(conditional).
Plus, we got to keep all our younger players and our first round picks.
Danny played it perfectly.

[Scintan]

Your expectations are wholly unreasonable.

Unless the media reports and the Pacers GM are both wrong/lying, it seems that Ainge could have set this team up with Paul George for the cost of Bradley/Crowder/picks.  So the idea that Mutineer33's expectations were wholly unreasonable just doesn't fit with the reported facts.

Expecting the Celtics to pay those salaries a year from now is wholly unreasonable.

First, that was not the issue at hand.  Second, Golden State's almost $38m over the cap, and both Cleveland and Portland are more over than that.

[moiso]

Expectations should have nothing to do with Ainge's grade this offseason.  He gets graded differently from everyone else based on the expectations of the fans and media, and not what he actually did?  That's nonsense.   If Wyc didn't get overly optimistic in front of a camera one or two times we would not be having this conversation. 

[Roy H.]

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

[gouki88]

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

Yeah, safe to say that whatever metric that is can be regarded as less than useless.

[moiso]

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

Yeah, safe to say that whatever metric that is can be regarded as less than useless.

Plus Gay only played 30 games.  Weird.

[kozlodoev]

S/o to Koz for criticizing Hayward for never playing more than 80 games in a regular season...

Dude has missed: 10, 0, 10, 5, 6, 2, and 9 games in his career.

This blog man...

More than 80 games is a ridiculously stupid bar. Lebron James hasn't played more than 80 games since he was 24 and that was the only time in his career that he did it.

He's quoted the same number about Hayward before, gotten the same response, and has chosen to post it again.

I don't like Griffin's value proposition: near-max deal for an injury prone player approaching his 30's who is dependent on his athleticism/leaping ability. I'm not psyched about George for this team either (I think we should build for the future), but Griffin has DNP written all over him. I don't want to cash in on our flexibility for Griffin.

But you're ok with 75-games-a-season Hayward then? Odd.

Has it escaped your notice that almost every nba start misses 5 or 10 games a year, even those who stay generally healthy?

It's nonsense and trolling, and none of us need to pay attention to it. Koz is LarBrd33 without the wit and substance.

Yup. But I'd be surprised if you get a response, it seems to me that Koz ignores the rebuttals that shut him down and just waits patiently until a less than stellar response comes.

Then he pounces!

I've said everything I could possibly say about this. I am concerned about paying 30+ million to someone who has made a habit of missing 5 to 10 games a season due to injuries. What more do you want?

[Granath]

S/o to Koz for criticizing Hayward for never playing more than 80 games in a regular season...

Dude has missed: 10, 0, 10, 5, 6, 2, and 9 games in his career.

This blog man...

More than 80 games is a ridiculously stupid bar. Lebron James hasn't played more than 80 games since he was 24 and that was the only time in his career that he did it.

He's quoted the same number about Hayward before, gotten the same response, and has chosen to post it again.

I don't like Griffin's value proposition: near-max deal for an injury prone player approaching his 30's who is dependent on his athleticism/leaping ability. I'm not psyched about George for this team either (I think we should build for the future), but Griffin has DNP written all over him. I don't want to cash in on our flexibility for Griffin.

But you're ok with 75-games-a-season Hayward then? Odd.

Has it escaped your notice that almost every nba start misses 5 or 10 games a year, even those who stay generally healthy?

It's nonsense and trolling, and none of us need to pay attention to it. Koz is LarBrd33 without the wit and substance.

Yup. But I'd be surprised if you get a response, it seems to me that Koz ignores the rebuttals that shut him down and just waits patiently until a less than stellar response comes.

Then he pounces!

I've said everything I could possibly say about this. I am concerned about paying 30+ million to someone who has made a habit of missing 5 to 10 games a season due to injuries. What more do you want?

The stuff you find to complain about boggles the mind. He's played more games than Lebron, Westbrook, Durant, George or Butler the last 4 seasons.   

[Granath]

I think the point here most are missing, is the Celtics have failed to meet expectations .... again.

The Celtics have been promising "Fireworks" for years now and have not delivered.

Heyward is a nice player, but realistically is the 2nd (or even 3rd) best player on a true championship team.

I was ok with the trade down from #1, but I think it foolish that so many here are annointing Tatum the next PP after watching a few college videos and some summer league highlights.

Baynes is a nice enough lower/middle roster addition.  I STILL don't see the marcus morris fit on our team (unless Crowder finally gets moved).  He is NOT a big. It made sense to move AB, but this is a disappointing return (even with his expiring deal).

Some are counting Zizic and Yabusele to justify the off season but they were drafed LAST year, not this year, and neither has proved they belong in the league yet.

The Celtics have had an incrementally positive season.  They added an upper tier player at franchise player $$$ (using up cap space).  They improved offensively, but regressed defensivly.  They hedged their bets on the draft and kicked the can down the road  on IT. Their roster remains imbalanced unless you believe that JB is going to take over and own  the "2" and that Baynes is going to play 35 minutes per game.  I don't see either happening.

They are slightly better than last year, but IMHO, not ready to beat a healthy Cleveland team. They are very far from beating GSW.  They are most certainly not a super team despite creating the expectation (fireworks) of building one.

They have had for the most part a prudent off season, but nothing so special as to suggest "fireworks"  or even an exceptionally good one.

Nothing wrong with being prudent, but when you set the expectations so much higher, you are going to disappoint people.

It is possible to be both good and disappointing.

You lost me right there.

Best FA in 2017
2nd Best FA in 2016
#3 draft choices both years

I guess you define "fireworks" as only being a massive trade but that seems like a poor definition created by a limited imagination. Actually, that seems to be your issue - a limited imagination. You seem to think the Cs only got "slightly better" with Hayward which is pretty absurd, you seem not to understand Brad's flexibility scheme or how traditional role aren't as important (actually this is true across the NBA), or how the young guys can contribute in certain roles...the list just goes on and on.

Here's the truth: we keep getting better every year and we're adding better assets every year. There's not been one step back. There's not been a year where we didn't add both an existing player that's a massive upgrade *and* a top prospect. This kind of team building has never been done in the NBA before and for some reason some folks can't seem to grasp the quite obvious direction of this team.

[kozlodoev]

The stuff you find to complain about boggles the mind. He's played more games than Lebron, Westbrook, Durant, George or Butler the last 4 seasons.   

I don't have a problem with that. I will also be very happy to be way off on this.

[RockinRyA]

Wait, so people are grading this based on the assumption that Fultz will be better than Tatum+lakers/kings pick and that losing bradley for nothing next season is better than losing him for Morris this season?

[Dino Pitino]

Wait, so people are grading this based on the assumption that Fultz will be better than Tatum+lakers/kings pick and that losing bradley for nothing next season is better than losing him for Morris this season?

Yes, that's what some people are doing. Crazy, isn't it?

And they don't realize that Morris is a Lebron stopper if there is such a thing in the league, that we've improved our odds against the Cavs.

[mutineer33]

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

Well a universal truth about metrics is that people use and abuse them when they support a persons point of view, and dismiss them as broken or worthless when they do not. Since the interpretation of metrics is so subjective, lets take a look at at some subjetive rankings:

Hoopshype ranks Hayward #22, just ahead of Klay Thompson and Demar DeRozan and Just behind Paul Milsap and Mike Conley.

SI ranks Hayward #29, just ahead of Derrick Favors and Kevin Love and Just behind Conley and Kyrie

Bleacher Report ranks Hayword #27  Just ahead of Beal and K walker and just behind Milsap and Lillard.

TheSCORE has Hayward as #22 Just ahead of Whiteside and B Griffin and just behind Kyrie

Want more objective parameters than the informed opinions above? Choose your metric:

Choose your metric:

PER: Not in top 20
Usage Pct: Not in top 20
Win Shares: #15
VORP: not in top 20

I am not saying he is trash.  I am just saying that outside the land of Green Koolaid, subjective and objective measurements show him for what he is ... a fringe Top 20-25 player in the league. This makes him good enough to be a solid #2 player on a very good team.

As a much beloved :p  former Celtics Coach once said " Larry Bird is not walking through those doors people".

[TheSundanceKid]

Your expectations are wholly unreasonable.

Unless the media reports and the Pacers GM are both wrong/lying, it seems that Ainge could have set this team up with Paul George for the cost of Bradley/Crowder/picks.  So the idea that Mutineer33's expectations were wholly unreasonable just doesn't fit with the reported facts.

Expecting the Celtics to pay those salaries a year from now is wholly unreasonable.

First, that was not the issue at hand.  Second, Golden State's almost $38m over the cap, and both Cleveland and Portland are more over than that.

It is relevant though. Let's say he could've got it done, that doesn't mean he could've kept them together. There would be a very very real possibility that one of George or Thomas would have to leave at the end of the season due to salary concerns. So then you have traded away 2 starters and picks for one year of benefit

The way things have gone down we have Crowder and Morris for 2 years, we may not be as strong this year but would be stronger the year after. We have also kept open our optionality for the future roster. We haven't sacrificed our future at all this summer.